AK versus Shotgun versus 45ACP Carbine

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all have a place

the handgun of choice is primary and most important,as one b4 said it will be with you when the need comes.

if i lived in close urban conditions the shotgun would be next.

if i lived in rural conditions the ak(for me a favorite).


there can be situations where the bgs will be behind cover and the rifle is king for cover busting,if i could have a 4th itd be a m1 garand with a few clips of blacktip 30-06 theres not many places a bg can hide from those.

not a big fan of pistol cal carbines if i had to use 1 id pick 44mag lever marlin
m1894 pre safety with a ladder sight and hopefully get good at a distance b4 shtf.
 
Where does it stop? Maybe I need even more. What's to say I won't need to stop an airplane, or an armored vehicle, or a bulldozer. Maybe said vehicles are driven by machine gun armed former SEALS.
I think thats an absurd comparison, we're talking about long guns all in the "very normal and easily used by the average person category. What benefit does a 12ga shotgun or pistol caliber long gun bring me for home defense over a 5.56 rifle? There's a reason leo groups aren't filling up with mp5's or shotguns anymore and the 5.56 is so popular. You may not need its extra capabilities over those of a shotgun but if you do you'll at least have them and really for no trade off.
 
Next year, the OP will own several rifles and a handful of shotguns. He will then proceed to advise yet another OP on the age-old shotgun-rifle-hangun debate.

As someone else pointed out, guns are tools, and each situation is unique. Get one of each. It doesn't have to be expensive. An SKS with four stripper clips in your pockets will run you as little as $125. A remington model 11 semi auto shotgun will run as little as $150. both are excellent reliable firearms that can hunt or defend. the hipoint 9mm carbine is also cheap and good.
 
Again, my point is not that a high powered rifle (and I don't call an AR/AK a high powered rifle because they are not) is not good to have.

My point is that a high powered rifle is not the weapon that the average city dweller should buy as their first, second and maybe even third weapon (of non-handguns).

It’s the same as saying everybody should buy a large SUV because it can do things smaller vehicles cannot do.
 
converted Saiga-12 loaded slug, buck, slug, buck.....

you'll make enough noise in 5 seconds to scare away any group of gang bangers.....who are not exactly known for their heroic acts.
 
just thought of something. if a situation like katrina is really something you are worried about, shouldn't your first order of business be to buy a suit of body armor?

imagine that the city has just gone nuts. folks are looting, people are shooting. you gotta get out there, and drive over to your MIL's house to pick her up because the wife is going to be very upset if you do not. given that you would already have a handgun strapped, would you rather have a rifle in addition or a suit of nice level 2 or level 3 body armor?
 
shouldn't your first order of business be to buy a suit of body armor?


You won't wear it. Its FAR to hot and humid to do that.


I almost would have gone naked if it weren't for the mosiquitos....grrr.


-- John
 
Roger on the body armor. I have never worn the stuff but having worn a Kevlar and a Flak jacket, I think I would rather have risked dying from shrapnel than being weighed down by that stuff.
 
This topic comes up often, and it usually ends up in a debate between about threat distances and responses to said threats.

Some feel that engaging a threat at an extended distance (the definition of which varies with the person asked) is unjustifiable.

Few years ago, I took the state mandated course to get my CHL. Instructor was a current police officer, who brought up this very topic; threat distances, and how to deal with them.

First, he pointed out that for our state, there needed to be three criteria before a person could legally use lethal force

1. Means: Meaning, the attacker(s) either had a weapon capable of inflicting lethal damage, or great bodily harm, or outnumbered the victim in a proportion that would allow lethal harm, or great bodily harm. Another possibility was if a 300# black belt attacked a 95# little old lady, he would be considered to have the means to inflict lethal force upon her. Disparity of force essentially.

2. Motive: The aggressor has to have shown some sort of overt display that he/she/they intend to inflict lethal damage or great bodily harm on the victim. Saying "I am going to kill you" would be one example. Pointing a firearm in a threatening manner would be another example.

3. Opportunity: This was simply explained as the aggressor being in range of whatever weapon he had. This obviously varies, and that point was expanded on later.

If any of these are missing, than in my state atleast, it's a bad shoot. Doesn't mean it will be prosecuted, but it doesn't meet the requirements.

So if a person says "I am going to kill you", and has a knife, but is 500 yards away, that person has means and motive, but lacks the opportunity. If that person was within 21' (actually a little more than that), than they would have the opportunity, and the requirements are met.

This officer, who instructed the class, made a point to say that if someone was 200 yards away, with a rifle, and had demonstrated the intent to kill you, it would be justifiable under the law to use lethal force against them. He introduced specific scenerios where this could occur.

It was pointed out though, that in our state, we have a duty to retreat. However, if retreat was not possible, than lethal force would be considered justified.

Similarly, he pointed out that the range may not be the commonly thought of range of a firearm.

For example, what range would be considered "opportunity" for an aggressor with a pistol? Some would argue anything over 50 yards, some might say 75 yards. He pointed out though, that a pistol is capable of killing someone from a much greater range than that. While it may be difficult to hit someone with a pistol at 100 yards, it's entirely possible, and the consequence of being hit is very serious. Death isn't a game, and it's not something you take a chance with.

With that in mind, I have layered my defensive collection. I would prefer to "outrange" any possible aggressor. By outrange, I mean, I would prefer that if I was placed in that situation, to deal with the threat at the fringe of the aggressors maximum range.

That would give me time, hopefully enough time, and distance, and the opportunity to utilize the "Nike" option. In addition, if I was forced into this situation, and a retreat was not possible, I would prefer that I could use something with enough accuracy to deal with the threat effectively and without risking harm to others, while making it as hard as possible on the aggressor.

Obviously, the aggressor is the one that sets the time/place/range of the conflict, so you really don't have a chance to decide where the aggressor is. But, if someone starts at 100 yards with a pistol, and tries to kill me, I would prefer to deal with it at that range, by using a rifle, than allowing him to close the distance and increase the likelyhood of killing me.

Long answer, and it's just my opinion, but it makes sense to me.

As for choices in weaponry, I think that depends on the specific situation, and where a person lives.

Assuming we are talking about civil disorder / Katrina / LA Riots type of situation:

If a person lives in a urban center, than I honestly see nothing wrong with a shotgun loaded with buck and slugs, or a pistol caliber carbine. I would see a M-1 Carbine, or a lever action carbine as almost ideal choices. I think an AR-15 would be even better, but some won't go that route.

If a person lives in a suburb, I think they should be capable of maxing out the range around them. For most that would mean 200-300 yards. That's not to say you would seek to engage someone at those longer ranges, but that it's smart to have the option if it was required. A rifle caliber carbine would be a smart choice, in my opinion, here. AR-15, AK clone, .30/30 lever action, Mini-14, those would be the top choices.

In addition, the carbine/rifle option gives other advantages, especially with optics. The ability to hit a precise target is valuable. The idea being to take the fight out of an aggressor ASAP, while minimizing risk to others in the area.

For an example: Say someone is behind a car, shooting in your direction, at 75 yards.

Yes, it's possible to hit that person with a shotgun loaded with slugs from a shotgun, but there is an increased risk of missing, and a miss increases risk to those nearby.

A pistol is similar. Yes, a hit can be achieved at that range, but the odds are less likely, and the risk of a miss is also increased.

An accurate carbine, especially one with an optic of some sort increases the odds of hitting the target, and ending the threat, while reducing the risk of missed shots that could hit others.
 
Ak or shotgun has me in a bind. Both of them would do the trick....... I would go with a shotgun


:Closes eyes:
 
JWARREN " I almost would have gone naked if it weren't for the mosiquitos....grrr." Now here is true understanding of a threat- a can of deet would be worth it's weight in gold. And maybe a headnet.
 
Thanks "itgoesboom". I admit a certain oster had me more than "peeved". Just because I prefer a 308, he semmed to strongly imply, that I was going to be sniping everybody that comes within 400 yards. It's a personal choice, best made with personal comfort, likely conditions, and economics in mind. A rifle is simply more capable with consideration to penetration, accuracy, and range. With new condition surplus rifles around $100, and surpls ammunition going for cheaper than pistol ammunition, economics reall isn't that big a factor. Since I have all the choices already, other than a pistol caliber, carbine, the only economic choices I have to make have been caliber. While a 50 caliber rifle would extend the rifle capability to the maximum, a 50 caliber rifle is as practicle as the MP-5 some have mentioned. It's just a better idea to have e greater capability than you will likely need, than to be stuck with less thanwhat you need. That would be my only argument against most lever actions and shotguns, is that they don't reload as fast, as even an M1 carbine or even a HiPoint carbine, or most bolt action rifles. Of course, if you have the rifle and are out of range of the threat you face, that's not as much a factor.

And some of the objections to using a rifle irk me as well. Well actually, they more kind of anger me. I mean, if an individual has more than what they need, that is one thing, but if they have less than what they need because they listened to someone posing as an expert, then that is very bad. Yes, learn and keep the legal issues in mind because they will be a factor, but being legal can get you killed, and even legal and justified shootings are no guarantee of avoiding legal trouble afterwards. I remember an article about the serious legal problems a certain man had because he defended himself,and his family, with an automatic weapon. He was a sales rep for a weapons manufacture, and an apparant severe case of road rage ended up, after miles and miles of a dangerous road chase, in a closed restricted access area
\ed. So, he did everything right and still has legal trouble. But he and his family are alive. It is also likely, depending on where you live, that the government will prosecute you not matter how justified you are. Even if you win,it is quite likely you will suffer economic loss. If you happen to defend yuourself aginst someone of the wrong ethnic group, you could also be labeleda "racist' and have your reputation ruined.

Furthermore, I am not going to come to your house and force you to buy a rifle.
 
Romak,

I probably was the oster, sorry to more than peeve you off. My issue is not with you personally. I just believe that for most city dwellers, a high powered rifle is a poor choice of a first long arm to invest in, if the purpose of said weapon is a shft gun.

As far is my recommending what a person needs, no single gun is best suited to all applications. If you are going to get "more" than what you might ever need, you are by definition going to have to get more than one long gun.

As under powered as my 9mm carbine is, nobody volunteered their SUV to test it.
 
That's because even the lowly .22LR will make swiss cheese of a car door if the shots hit anywhere near square.
I have proven it. (and it was fun!) :)

For most practical purposes I can't see why a 9mm carbine would be a bad choice. You gain extra power and accuracy from an already adequate round and it's chambered in a lightweight, handy weapon. One of my friends has hit 5 gallon buckets at 200 yards with his 1911 shooting with one hand. He can occasionally hit a clay pigeon at that range too. So if he can do that with a pistol, I can't see why a guy with a 9mm carbine couldn't hit close enough at that range to put holes in a man-sized target.
One thing that many of us sort of forgot about: Sure, I can handle a .308 or 12 gauge. I have been shooting for over 20 years and I weigh a little over 200 pounds. But if I had to hand one of those guns to my girlfriend it might get a little less practical. The 12 gauge kicks and the FAL goes about 11 pounds loaded. It even gets heavy for me when shooting long offhand strings so she could probably only hold it up for a few shots.
If you have someone smaller or not as strong or not experienced with firearms in your household it might be a good idea to go with something like a 9mm carbine or maybe a .30 carbine.
I read somewhere that firepower is about bullets hitting where they are supposed to. Eventhough a Garand will do that, not everyone can do that with a Garand. ;)
 
I always enjoy any kind of AK versus AR versus whatever. I do have both, AK and am AR. My go to in the worst of situations would be the AR. Gun is light, wife can fire it, it is ACCURATE, proven man stopper and hmmmm oh yea .223 ammo is everywhere. Trying to get any Ak type ammo where I live is probably gonna be a bit difficult. Availability of ammo is frequently overlooked.
 
lets look at it this way. when was the last time when a TSHTF situation occurred where long range (>50 yards) was even an issue?

each kind of firearm has its place.

get one of each if it makes you happy, and get reasonably proficient. i don't think you need to be swat team proficient, mostly you need to learn safety and basic marksmanship, and how each firearm works, so in the highly unlikely event it is needed, you are less likely to shoot the nun across the street, instead of the BG you thought you were aiming at.
 
Get both an AR and a shotty.

870mcs_AxxWpn.jpg



or from http://www.knightarmco.com/m203_12ga.html

Justin
 
It could be done with the right paperwork. The AR could be a 16" version and short barreled shotguns are highly regulated but not actually "illegal" in most states.
But for my purposes, the AR would do fine. Or the shotgun. But both of them at once would just be too heavy.
 
Yep. Both are registered as Short barreled guns. The picture comes from an ad for the mount. Ans the link is from a second supplier of such a mount ( I love the M203 standalone unit!!!). Necessary papers and about $400 in tax stamps and your in business. :D

Justin
 
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