Alabama nears no-permit CCW, but LEOs say permit needed

[BigFatKen]

I looked and looked but I cannot find one case of permit holders and crimes.


help?


BY PAUL GATTIS

[email protected]

Pistol permits are a financial boon to the Madison County sheriff's department but that's not why Sheriff Blake Dorning opposes a Senate bill that would eliminate them.

"We hear it's just a money thing," Dorning said Wednesday. "No, it's not. It's a life and death safety issue for our men and women because the equipment we're able to provide them with drastically makes them more efficient and more able to address the situations that they come into every day."




Senate bill attacks safety of police, sheriff says

"It is a threat to law abiding citizens like you and me and a threat to this great state and country."

Dorning and other top department officials held a press conference Wednesday to follow up on the open letter the sheriff posted online over the weekend.

Capt. Michael Salomonsky outlined a handful of cases where law enforcement tracked down criminals through their pistol permits as evidence for the need to oppose the bill introduced by Sen. Gerald Allen, R-Tuscaloosa.

The bill would repeal the requirement to have a permit to conceal carry a pistol. It would also allow conceal carry at events such as demonstrations and protest rallies. Without the criminal background checks required for a permit, applicants with a violent criminal past would be able to conceal carry, Dorning said.

Officials also met head-on the issue of money associated with the permit fees, saying that the permits yield about $700,000 annually to the department.



http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2017/02/its_not_just_a_money_thing_she.html

 

[ironworkerwill]

So it's not about money (but it's still about money) and it makes law abiding citizens safer because criminals can be tracked down if the have a CCP ( real criminals don't care either way).

 

[Bad Ninja]

Tracked down using a database of gun owners is what I hear.

Sounds like that county needs to elect a sheriff that has their best interest in mind, rather than his own.

 

[DeepSouth]

The Alabama sheriffs association is the most powerful gun control support group in this state. I don't believe it's about money, I believe it's about power. If the citizens of Alabama knew the things the Alabama sheriffs association has said and supported it simply wouldn't be tolerated.
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This article, although old, has one of the most unreasonable statements I've ever heard from an Alabama sheriff.

“We know things about our citizens. We know who’s going through a divorce. We know who’s in a bad time, who may be drinking too much, who may be abusive, but hasn’t necessarily crossed the line of a crime. But in our opinion, they don’t need a pistol permit.”

 

[BobTheTomato]

Its about money

 

[bikemutt]

It would also allow conceal carry at events such as demonstrations and protest rallies. Without the criminal background checks required for a permit, applicants with a violent criminal past would be able to conceal carry, Dorning said.

Surely the sheriff knows criminals don't care about conceal carry laws, or any laws for that matter.

 

[Bad Ninja]

“We know things about our citizens. We know who’s going through a divorce. We know who’s in a bad time, who may be drinking too much, who may be abusive, but hasn’t necessarily crossed the line of a crime. But in our opinion, they don’t need a pistol permit.”

Welcome to California.
Here in CA, the Sheriff determines who gets a CCW at a whim.
LEO and certain lisc armed security guards, politicians and rich citizens only.

 

[ironworkerwill]

[QUOTE="DeepSouth, post: 10583186,
This article,
“We know things about our citizens. We know who’s going through a divorce. We know who’s in a bad time, who may be drinking too much, who may be abusive, but hasn’t necessarily crossed the line of a crime. But in our opinion, they don’t need a pistol permit.”[/QUOTE]

They don't have the right to meditate*. Alabama is a shall issue state. All the more reason to bypass* the sheriff's department all together.


* Edit for clarity- using legislation to "bypass". using town rumor or life circumstances to qualify or "mediation".

 

[BigFatKen]

What I said so poorly is; what criminals are the "handful of cases where law enforcement tracked down criminals through their pistol permits."


I cannot find the cases of who these people are.
All I found were CCW carry men who helped police.

 

[Blkhrt13]

I may move back if they keep this up

 

[Officers'Wife]

Wait a minute... I was told that felons were prohibited from having firearms so I have to go through a background check to buy one. Now an Alabama sheriff is telling me felons not only have handguns but are getting permits to carry them??? I wonder if he wants to stick to that story or would like some time to think of a better one?

 

[BigFatKen]

Is it possible that one or more AL CCW permitted people were accused of a crime and tracted down from their permit?

 

[JTHunter]

Tracked down using a database of gun owners is what I hear.
Sounds like that county needs to elect a sheriff that has their best interest in mind, rather than his own.

That also make having a CCP a defacto registration scheme. And we know where that leads!

All the more reason for full "constitutional carry".

 

[grampajack]

Corruption and greed, plain and simple. And laughable dishonesty and shameful lack of integrity to boot. It's people like him who give law enforcement a bad name.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Is it possible that one or more AL CCW permitted people were accused of a crime and tracted down from their permit?

It could be, but that assumes the accusation automatically makes one a violent criminal and is proper due process to nullify rights. An assumption that makes me just a bit uncomfortable.

 

[ironworkerwill]

What I said so poorly is; what criminals are the "handful of cases where law enforcement tracked down criminals through their pistol permits."


I cannot find the cases of who these people are.
All I found were CCW carry men who helped police.

We get you Ken, but you know how we are on rights...and tangents.

 

[razzle]

I live in Alabama . My wife and I both have permits. We often travel to neighboring states therefore even if this law is passed, we will continue to pay for our permits. Reciprocity is dependent on our Alabama permits.

 

[jdc1244]

That also make having a CCP a defacto registration scheme. And we know where that leads!

Yes, to a slippery slope fallacy.

All the more reason for full "constitutional carry".

Requiring a permit/license to carry a concealed firearm is also ‘full’ Constitutional carry.

Sheriff Dorning’s position on the issue is devoid of merit.

That law enforcement might have apprehended criminal suspects by using the suspects’ carry permit information is not ‘justification’ to oppose legislation repealing the law requiring a permit to carry a concealed firearm – one having nothing to do with the other.

 

[HexHead]

Why doesn't he just come out and say what he obviously really thinks, that only the police should have guns?

 

[BigFatKen]

Thank you one and all. Looks like same 'ol BS. Donate and you get, no donation and do not get. It the combination of "if you have the power, you can demand the money."

Old stories below. Not about guns, just power.

In 1960 my cheap $30 bike is stolen. Milwaukee police finds it, calls. Dad takes me to get it and puts a bill of some denomination into jar. I get bike.

In 1985, a man's quality $3000. bike stolen in Hartland, WI. Weeks later the adult man sees a boy riding his bike stopped at stop sign. Man grabs boy and walks him to nearby police station. Boy is policeman's son. Very lucky there are many citizens in station doing business that witness this. Theft victim not prosecuted for threatened "Kidnapping, unlawful detainment, non-felony citizens arrest, more. Police tried to prosecute man who is victim, but Felony level is $2500. DA argues the bike has depreciated to < $2500. Man needs to hire attorney that victim would need $3000 to replace bike. As SHTF, DA drops case. No charges to policeman who "borrowed" unclaimed bike and gave to son.

As I looked up more, it is coming more clear that "may issue" is the same as Sec. State HRC visitation rights. If you do not donate to her fund she may see you but if you do donate you have a 55% chance she shall see you.

 

[Alte Schule]

Section 13A-11-75 License to Carry Pistol in Vehicle or Concealed on Person - Issuance; Term; Form; Fee; Revocation. (a)(1)a. The sheriff of a county, upon the application of any person residing in that county, may within 30 days from receipt of a complete application and accompanying fee, shall issue or renew a license for such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his or her person within this state for one to five year increments, as requested by the person seeking the license, from date of issue, unless the sheriff determines, based upon reasonable suspicion, that there is a credible risk that the person will use a weapon unlawfully or in such other manner that would endanger the person's self or others.

Until I read this thread and the above I had no idea concealed carry licenses in a southern state like Alabama were issued by the sheriff. Blowing smoke stating it's a safety issue instead of a $$$ issue. You bet losing 700K in license fee's in one year is something for them to worry about.
What's the definition of "reasonable suspicion"? You didn't vote for him or contribute to his campaign? I hope the good people of Alabama repeal this law and kick it to the curb where it belongs. IMO if you can legally purchase a firearm you should be allowed to carry it without a by your leave from the local sheriff.

 

[salt&battery]

The Alabama sheriffs association is the most powerful gun control support group in this state. I don't believe it's about money, I believe it's about power. If the citizens of Alabama knew the things the Alabama sheriffs association has said and supported it simply wouldn't be tolerated.
.
.
.
This article, although old, has one of the most unreasonable statements I've ever heard from an Alabama sheriff.

“We know things about our citizens. We know who’s going through a divorce. We know who’s in a bad time, who may be drinking too much, who may be abusive, but hasn’t necessarily crossed the line of a crime. But in our opinion, they don’t need a pistol permit.”

another "pro" gun LEO. law enforcement is a business and it is about power and money they go hand in hand

 

[CoalTrain49]

Wait a minute... I was told that felons were prohibited from having firearms so I have to go through a background check to buy one. Now an Alabama sheriff is telling me felons not only have handguns but are getting permits to carry them??? I wonder if he wants to stick to that story or would like some time to think of a better one?

Exactly.

It's a well known fact that less than 1% of people with carry permits commit a felony. Texas, which is much bigger than Alabama, has kept these statistics since day one when they rolled out concealed carry permits. I think that was about 15 years ago. Anyone can find these online if you care to look. Obviously the good sheriff can't use a computer.

The fact is that the permit holders are supporting the sheriffs operations as he sees fit. In this state the money for permits goes into the general fund so the respective agency can account for it and reimburse the sheriff for processing those permits. All of our sheriffs operating funds come from the county commissioners after a budget is approved.

When that money is accounted for and the cost of permits is scrutinized about 8 states have decided that it isn't a worthwhile endeavor. They have come to realize that the cost of permits to the state far outweighs the benefit. That has been proven in AZ. Generally, even with a permit fee, the state has to provide additional funds to support the permit process. Here the CPL background check is run by the state so they know exactly what the cost is. In Alabama they probably have no idea because the sheriff controls the process.

I think they may still be running on the good ol boy system there in Alabama. Evidently thats the way they like it, so who am I to tell them how to run their business.

 

[salt&battery]

Thank you one and all. Looks like same 'ol BS. Donate and you get, no donation and do not get. It the combination of "if you have the power, you can demand the money."

Old stories below. Not about guns, just power.

In 1960 my cheap $30 bike is stolen. Milwaukee police finds it, calls. Dad takes me to get it and puts a bill of some denomination into jar. I get bike.

In 1985, a man's quality $3000. bike stolen in Hartland, WI. Weeks later the adult man sees a boy riding his bike stopped at stop sign. Man grabs boy and walks him to nearby police station. Boy is policeman's son. Very lucky there are many citizens in station doing business that witness this. Theft victim not prosecuted for threatened "Kidnapping, unlawful detainment, non-felony citizens arrest, more. Police tried to prosecute man who is victim, but Felony level is $2500. DA argues the bike has depreciated to < $2500. Man needs to hire attorney that victim would need $3000 to replace bike. As SHTF, DA drops case. No charges to policeman who "borrowed" unclaimed bike and gave to son.

As I looked up more, it is coming more clear that "may issue" is the same as Sec. State HRC visitation rights. If you do not donate to her fund she may see you but if you do donate you have a 55% chance she shall see you.

in 1960 $30 was a lot and not a cheap bike

 

[david58]

I think they may still be running on the good ol boy system there in Alabama.

Ya think?