My neighbors have a new dog, a pit bull. Yesterday as my son and I were walking down the sidewalk to the truck, we heard barking and growling in the neighbor's yard. I looked over and there was this dog charging us with his owner in tow. She's a small woman and could not slow the dog down. We were in the middle of my sidewalk with no time to get back inside or to the vehicle. I was carrying as usual but really did not want to shoot the dog with its owner a leash length away. I had my hand on my weapon and was just beginning to draw when she finially dug her heels in and stopped her "pet" about twenty feet away. A few more feet and I was going to shoot the dog, thank the Lord I didn't have to. I thanked her for stopping the charge and told her she needed to have more control of her dog. She apologized and got the dog back in her yard, it had managed to pull her about half way across my yard. I do not believe she saw my weapon as I did not draw it out from under my coat. Did I wait too long before acting? What would you have done in this situation?
Almost shot neighbor's dog, right or wrong?
- Thread starter kimberdad
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If I were her, or you?
First off, I'm not all that scared of dogs. I'm especially not inherently scared of pit bulls, since they tend not to be human aggressive unless they've been abused or trained somehow. I try to read the dog's behavior. Was the dog actually "charging" you? How much do you know about dogs, and how much of your perception comes from secondhand news-media hype about a breed?
Second, I don't rush to shoot a dog in any situation. I have never had to, nor even come close to it.
Third, it would be unwise to draw a gun and point it in my direction. At best, I'd press assault charges. And I'm always carrying. That's true of other people, as well, so given that nothing bad happened, nor even came close to really happening, you're far better off to have waited.
scythefwd
Member
Why would his 2a rights be taken away? That dog very well could kill him or his child. That dog very well could have done grievous bodily harm to either. It was obvious the neighbor didn't have control of the dog. He would have been justified to shoot in order to protect him and his son from grievous injury or death.
That said, I own a pit. One charging and growling is not trying to make friends. I would offer to take her to petsmart and get a halti harness (they ain't cheep). My pit won't pull on his. What this harness does is force the head to the side whenever the dog tries to pull. I would also talk with the neighbor about proper socialization of her dog. That dog is a bully breed, and proper care needs to be taken when raising them. To treat a bully breed like lap dog will result in a dog that challenges for dominance. If you, as an owner of a bully breed, do nothing for that dog... there is a 90% chance you will ruin it. With bully breeds, like raising children, it takes active participation.
You handled it well. I would talk to your neighbor and inform her just how serious you viewed the potential attack and then make a couple of suggestions as to how to handle that dog on a leash (halti is on the top of the list until the dog is properly leash trained).
That said, I own a pit. One charging and growling is not trying to make friends. I would offer to take her to petsmart and get a halti harness (they ain't cheep). My pit won't pull on his. What this harness does is force the head to the side whenever the dog tries to pull. I would also talk with the neighbor about proper socialization of her dog. That dog is a bully breed, and proper care needs to be taken when raising them. To treat a bully breed like lap dog will result in a dog that challenges for dominance. If you, as an owner of a bully breed, do nothing for that dog... there is a 90% chance you will ruin it. With bully breeds, like raising children, it takes active participation.
You handled it well. I would talk to your neighbor and inform her just how serious you viewed the potential attack and then make a couple of suggestions as to how to handle that dog on a leash (halti is on the top of the list until the dog is properly leash trained).
Clipper
Member
I'd go tell her how close her dog came to going to that big kennel in the sky, and suggest a good fence company. It's not your responsibility to keep her dog off your property...And pay no attention to the chest-beaters. Some A**wipe has their dog threaten me on my own property, then gets chesty when I protect myself can go for a gun if they feel lucky, but keep in mind I will already have mine in hand, and will be in the right regardless...
robhof
Member
I'm a dog owner too, but if my dog charges someone, they're justified in putting it down, just as I would be in putting down an agressive dog on my property.
supercopjason
Member
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Jeffm223, I am curious as to how he is a poster child for Anti-gunners? He has an inherent right to self defense of both himself and his child. A dog regardless of breed can cause serious bodily harm or death which by law authorizes his use of deadly force.
I think by not drawing his weapon he acted very responsible. He was awaiting the dog to close more distance and see the dog’s intentions prior to drawing his weapon.
You on the other hand I feel are a poster child for the Anti-gunners. (Someone who sees something in print and immediately jumps to conclusions about what should be done). Truth is if you want to get mauled by a dog when you could have easily stopped it that is your right to make that decision but it is his right to protect his life.
Kimberdad, I have responded to many dog attacks and I would not think twice if it got close enough to cause harm. With that said make sure it has capability and opportunity and you would be completly justified.
I think by not drawing his weapon he acted very responsible. He was awaiting the dog to close more distance and see the dog’s intentions prior to drawing his weapon.
You on the other hand I feel are a poster child for the Anti-gunners. (Someone who sees something in print and immediately jumps to conclusions about what should be done). Truth is if you want to get mauled by a dog when you could have easily stopped it that is your right to make that decision but it is his right to protect his life.
Kimberdad, I have responded to many dog attacks and I would not think twice if it got close enough to cause harm. With that said make sure it has capability and opportunity and you would be completly justified.
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flrfh213
Member
i side with both of you, i try to be more aware of what and whom is around me at all times, that said i would most likely have done the same thing. had the neighbor had control of what SHE HAD FOR PROTECTION, i would NOT NEED MY PROTECTION. with all being fair, i have my dog (75 pounds by the way) trained to drop meat out of her mouth on command when eating table scraps and stop when commanded as well... but i was not there and can only offer my opinion
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
flrfh213: Your post is hard to read, no offense intended.
As for the topic, I'd say you were right. A dog can cause serious injury and even death, especially with children. Preparing yourself to stop a charging dog with lethal force is not unreasonable.
As for the topic, I'd say you were right. A dog can cause serious injury and even death, especially with children. Preparing yourself to stop a charging dog with lethal force is not unreasonable.
I don't believe he knows enough about dogs to judge that. The questions he's asking do not indicate that he knows much about what to look for and what to expect. There's nothing wrong with that, until someone without enough knowledge whips out a firearm.
It never did. If she really had no control of the dog, and it was really aggressive towards the OP, it would have gotten away from her. That's one reason I don't believe the story. This sounds like someone who is trigger-happy, not someone who was really in any danger.
There's no chest beating here, believe me.
My dogs don't attack people, my neighbors know this and I'd have ample witnesses to show it, and trigger-happy neighbors who assault me with handguns when they are not under threat will face charges.
I often have my hand where I could draw a gun. That's not unreasonable. Actually drawing it would be, in most situations. Preparedness is not. The OP did the right thing, by not drawing.
Now, the right thing is to get to know the neighbor, and the dog. Maybe in some places, you hole up and prepare to fire on the neighbors. Here, we still try to get along, before we start shooting. I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhood if you see everyone else as an enemy, first and foremost.
kingpin008
Member
Sounds like someone's got a case of Keyboard Commando.
In regards to the OP - I think you did fine. I'd be hesitant to shoot with a human that close as well. Did you say anything to the woman as she and the dog approached?
Depending on how close I was, I would have kept my hand on/near my pistol, and said in a loud, clear voice "Hey, control that dog! Keep it back!" or something along those lines. That way, she knows that you're not going to laugh and scritch lil' Fido behind the ears if she can't control him, ya know? A little talk with the lady might be in order, as well. Just a friendly request to make sure the dog is controlled - no need to get confrontational right off the bat, right?
That his first reaction is to reach for his gun in this situation shows that his judgment is too poor to be carrying a weapon. I am a firm believer in RKBA, for defense against immediate lethal threats. A charging dog, even a dreaded "pitbull", does not rise to that level. This is why I carry pepper spray in addition to a firearm. Not every threat that one faces in life deserves to be answered with lethal force. And before the question is asked, yes I have fended off attacks by dogs both open handed and with pepper spray.
Do you not recognize that what you are suggesting IS confrontational? I mean, don't shy away from confrontation if necessary, but if you want to be neighborly, try starting with a conversation, not an ultimatum. Ask about the dog. Apparently it's a new dog. Presumably, they're learning about it, and hopefully about training.
Doesn't anyone know how to approach another person without a veiled threat?
Seriously, do most of you people think "neighbor" means "enemy"?
I really am glad I don't live where you do, if that's the culture there.
And if it's a neighbor's dog, throw it some dog treats a few times. Threat neutralized. What do you think a dog is, godzilla?
NavyLCDR
member
Jeffm223 said:
1. I hope you don't have children.
2. If you do, I hope your children are never attacked by any dog, let alone a pit bull.
3. If you're children are attacked by a dog, I hope that I am near so that I can stop the attack since you obviously think too little of your children to stop it.
Many people carry ONLY guns for self defense and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He made a calculated and reasonable effort to protect his child from the attack of an animal that had the ability to do grave bodily harm to or kill his child.
Just exactly when would YOU suggest that he draw his weapon? After the dog had a grip on him or on his child?
NavyLT- Nobody was attacked by a dog in this scenario.
The neighbor got a new dog that pulls on its leash. OP's higher cognitive functions got the better of him, and he didn't shoot it. No harm, no foul.
People here are eager to tell him to make an enemy of his neighbor, when nobody's been hurt. Like I said, I'm glad I don't live somewhere that the default assumption of "neighbor" is "enemy". It's sad that so many seem to.
The neighbor got a new dog that pulls on its leash. OP's higher cognitive functions got the better of him, and he didn't shoot it. No harm, no foul.
People here are eager to tell him to make an enemy of his neighbor, when nobody's been hurt. Like I said, I'm glad I don't live somewhere that the default assumption of "neighbor" is "enemy". It's sad that so many seem to.
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NavyLCDR
member
How fricken' close does the attack have to be? Nobody drew their weapon either, by the way.
Because somebody THOUGHT they MIGHT have to shoot an aggressive dog going after their child, they should have their gun taken away? COMPLETE B.S.!
Because somebody THOUGHT they MIGHT have to shoot an aggressive dog going after their child, they should have their gun taken away? COMPLETE B.S.!
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
+1 on shoot if not stopped......
jeffm223, i do not want to start an argument but pitbulls have been known to severly injure and even kill people. I dont carry pepper spray, I carry a pistol. We were in our yard minding our own business when this dog charges across my yard pulling its owner behind it. I did not draw my weapon, I was just getting prepared to defend myself and my son. I am not gun crazy, I have never had to pull my weapon in all the years I have had my ccp. I dont believe preparing myself to fend off a possible danger rates me losing my rkba.
NavyLCDR
member
kimberdad,
You did just fine. I think anyone with any common sense would have done what you did.
You did just fine. I think anyone with any common sense would have done what you did.
scythefwd
Member
Well, it will only take one time to learn what to look for. You never forget the first meeting with a dog that didn't like you and is serious about it.
Kimberdad - Pitbulls aren't any more dangerous than any other large breed. Matter of fact, there are several breeds that more capable of doing damage than a pit. Again, you did the right thing by waiting, but I would advise you to learn animal behavior and signs of aggression of the animals you commonly interact with. Pits tend to top out in the 90 lb range (thats big.. breed standards for a bitch are 60ish). You can manhandle one.... but I would rather you shoot it than go toe to toe with one.
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Crusader103
Member
kimberdad,
I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from these other armchair quarterbacks. Your situation sounds pretty cut and dried to me. You observed a barking, growling, animal capable of causing serious physical injury charging you and/or your loved ones. You are well within your right to protect yourself. The fact that you exercised restraint, which you obviously did, indicates that you are apparently not a trigger happy gunslinger.
All these comments....this dog isn't dangerous... get to know the dog......the breed..... the owner..... hogwash. While not a bad idea you have no such burden, and the time that an animal is growling, charging, and being aggressive is probably not the time to analyze the mindset of the dog or the owner for that matter.
If taking reasonable steps to protect yourself causes you to become the poster child of the anti-gun lobby, I'd be happy to fight that fight with you. Wouldn't be the first time or last time they skewed facts.
Based solely upon what you wrote I would testify (and I would want the full story before I did so) that you acted as a reasonably prudent person would have done in a similiar situation.... by the way, my opinion counts in a court of law.
Good job. Good decision. Good restraint.
Be aware. Shoot accurately.
Joshua Scott
www.FrontSightFocus.org
I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from these other armchair quarterbacks. Your situation sounds pretty cut and dried to me. You observed a barking, growling, animal capable of causing serious physical injury charging you and/or your loved ones. You are well within your right to protect yourself. The fact that you exercised restraint, which you obviously did, indicates that you are apparently not a trigger happy gunslinger.
All these comments....this dog isn't dangerous... get to know the dog......the breed..... the owner..... hogwash. While not a bad idea you have no such burden, and the time that an animal is growling, charging, and being aggressive is probably not the time to analyze the mindset of the dog or the owner for that matter.
If taking reasonable steps to protect yourself causes you to become the poster child of the anti-gun lobby, I'd be happy to fight that fight with you. Wouldn't be the first time or last time they skewed facts.
Based solely upon what you wrote I would testify (and I would want the full story before I did so) that you acted as a reasonably prudent person would have done in a similiar situation.... by the way, my opinion counts in a court of law.
Good job. Good decision. Good restraint.
Be aware. Shoot accurately.
Joshua Scott
www.FrontSightFocus.org
I think you were right to prepare yourself to shoot, and clearly you were right to abstain. I think if the dog was alone, barking and charging, few on this thread would criticize shooting the animal. The proximity of the non-aggressive human really changes the scenario. If the dog is coming for you, and the owner is tugging on the leash, by nature the human will be perfectly aligned with your bullet's trajectory. I can't imagine a scenario where I would recommend shooting at a potentially dangerous dog with a non-threatening human backstop.
I won't respond to personal attacks. You have your opinions, as is your right (at least for now). I will say, in support of my opinion, that this post summarizes the image held by anti-gunners about people who carry. Namely, that they are walking around, hand on gun, looking for a reason to shoot something, willing to gyrate about and stretch the point to justify pulling the trigger. I'm glad the OP came to the right decision this time, but if this is his mindset I worry about the next time. As useful as a gun can be, they are not the answer to every problem - certainly not this one.
I find it funny that several people have pulled out the "what about the child" card so often used against us by anti-gunners and other enemies of liberty. Big irony there. Implying (or directly stating) that I don't care about children is a cheap rhetorical ploy, not a reasoned argument.
I find it funny that several people have pulled out the "what about the child" card so often used against us by anti-gunners and other enemies of liberty. Big irony there. Implying (or directly stating) that I don't care about children is a cheap rhetorical ploy, not a reasoned argument.
Jeffm223,
Your post was a personal attack, so I'm surprised you're bristling at those attacks being hurled your way.
That said, I believe you would have gotten a much better response if you had posted the content of post #24 initially, instead of leaving a flamebait one-liner that was unsupported by any type of reasoning. I don't necessarily agree, but thanks for explaining your logic.
Your post was a personal attack, so I'm surprised you're bristling at those attacks being hurled your way.
That said, I believe you would have gotten a much better response if you had posted the content of post #24 initially, instead of leaving a flamebait one-liner that was unsupported by any type of reasoning. I don't necessarily agree, but thanks for explaining your logic.
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