Alternative platforms for the 7.62x39 mm round?

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Frustration is setting in on my investigations into acquiring another 7.62x39 mm firearm.

I've got a couple of SKSs, which I like, and a nice (Lancaster) AKM, but I'm still looking for a 7.62x39 platform that will deliver the round with a bit better accuracy. My first thought, driven in part by having a potentially spare AR lower, was to put together a 7.62 AR. That idea's hitting the rocks, primarily because there really doesn't appear to be a reliable magazine available (yet) and the other presently available choice, the MGI modular system, is really expensive and not very widely tried. Robinson's XCR is not available in 7.62, although that is promised in the future.

Other options for this round of course include the Ruger Mini-30, which almost everyone says to not bother with, and the Saiga, which I perceive as essentially another form of AK.

What else is there?
 
You should just wait for the Robinson Arms to come out for the cailber conversion for the XCR.

Albiet, FN would probably have a semi-auto version of the SCAR on the market by then and there is suppose to be a 7.62x39mm caliber conversion for those as well.
 
You could get a bolt- action 7.62x39mm Soviet rifle. I think CZ makes one. I think that Remington makes one as well, but I could be wrong.

You'd get your accuracy wish, for sure. Plus, if I were you, it'd be nice to break out of the semi- auto phase for a while.
 
The CZ527 bolt action rifle is offered in 7.62x39. Even has a single set trigger if you're really hoping to wring some accuracy out of the round.
 
That CZ-527 does look interesting. And it probably wouldn't hurt to get a little bolt action experience. Thanks for the heads up.
 
How about Wal-Mart?
The terror of the trailer park.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4665477
attachment.php


If you want to spend a lot more money there is the TC Encore
http://www.eabco.com/encor01.html

or EAA BAIKAL IZH94 (rifle/shotgun over-under)
http://www.davesguns.com/firearms.html
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/baikal.html

http://www.davesguns.com/serverpics/FirearmsPage/IZH-12Ga-7.62x39.jpg
IZH-12Ga-7.62x39.jpg
 

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I've got a couple of SKSs, which I like, and a nice (Lancaster) AKM,
Click to expand...

Sorry for getting off topic, but... How do you like the Lancaster? Since they're American made, I assume they do not come covered in Cosmoline?

If thats the case, I'll definitely go with a Lancaster or Vector, as I hate Cosmoline.
 
Grant, they as with most are only American made in the sense that they take the 9 imported parts allowable under 922R, add a USA made reciever, a lower quality but legal USA FCG, a USA gas piston and a USA Pistol grip all the rest are Eastern European military parts.........

Cosmoline is really easy to clean BTW but then if your talking about imported being WASRs etc..... well they aren't worth messin with even if they have zero cosmoline anyway......

As far as the more accurate 7.62x39, go with A YUGO AKM ya can shut off the gas valve when ya wanna go MOA (with quality ammo) at which time it becomes a straight pull bolt action or open the gas valve for regular AK reliability and performance........... there are a bunch of variations built by builders all over the country Surprised ya didn't see the ones Lancaster consulting builds...........
 
It is widely reported around the web (if you can trust the web) and especially on the NEF forums, that the x39 NEF does not do well with military surplus ammo. The manual even warns against using it. It sticks in the chamber and you get stuck cases.


There's the AK, SKS, Mini-30, CZ bolt action carbine, there are various AR's configured for x39, there's the Saiga which isn't in AK configuration but has the action, TC........
 
Ruger made a bunch of M77MkIIs in 7.62x39; I picked a NIB example up about a month ago for $500. The CZ is nice and priced at $475 or thereabouts, and the Interarms/Charles Daly/Remington MiniMauser in 7.62x39 can be generally found for less than $500.
 
The Remington 798 and 799 are Zastava rilfes. The 799 is available in x39.
 
i was under the impression that riffles that shoot the 7.62x39 accuracy problems stem from the round its self not necessarily the riffle its self, am i misinformed
 
The biggest problem with x39 is that most of us shoot the Russian stuff. That ammo is crap all the way around. There is almost no consistency in any component and no consistency in bullet seating.

The low cost of Russian ammo really muddies the waters, so to speak, in how people view that cartridge. You pay bargain basement prices and get bottom dweller performance and folks simply make the assumption that all x39 is junk.

So while a Russian cartridge is likely to be an inconsistent performer, that is not a reason to say that the cartridge itself is inherently inaccuracte or inconsistent. I think a lot of handloaders have great success with the x39.
 
Just because nobody mentioned it, Special Interest Arms has been producing an x39 mod kit for Enfield #4 rifles, allowing them to use AK mags... I have no experience with them, but an interesting idea. More expensive than the CZ, but the Enfield action is nice and you can use AK mags, which is sweet...

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/
 
who ever said anything about 7.62x39 as a round being inaccurate? Or the guns chambered for it? ohhhhh ya mean the troops that had very little actual training in how to even use a rifle were the source of all the stories about inaccuracy! ya know the ones that were trained to fight at the squad level running their weapons on FA rather than any actual focus on real marksmanship........ but rather spray the enemy position with as much lead as possible while ya are at a dead run..... either towards or away from the enemy
 
The biggest problem with x39 is that most of us shoot the Russian stuff. That ammo is crap all the way around. There is almost no consistency in any component and no consistency in bullet seating.
Click to expand...

I get much better groups with russian ammo than I do American made crap. My CZ527 will shoot wolf and brown bear to the tune of 2 to 2.5 moa.

With all due respect you don't know what you're talking about.
 
I don't mean this to hijack the thread, but there is a sub-discussion about the consistency of Russian x39.


Here are my chrono results:

10 shot string, Wolf Military Classic 123gr FMJ - 2,335fps, SD of 19

10 shot string, Red Hammer (Barnaul), 123gr FMJ - 2,365fps, SD of 14


Those SD's are not bad at all. For example, .223 XM193 has been much higher out of 3 barrels tested and people slobber over how great that stuff is. Hornady TAP has been higher too in my tests. And that is pricy stuff.


Now, that doesn't mean Wolf or Barnaul is accurate. Variations in bullet/case could lead to accuracy issues. This is simply showing that velocity-wise, they're not inconsistent. Not in my experience at least. (Wolf .223 has been pretty bad though...) Provided the bullet, case, rifle and all other factors aren't interfering - SD's under 20 should be pretty accurate. Not benchrest of course, but not the typical SKS/AK paper-plate sized patterns either.


Sorry about that. Carry on!
 
Originally posted by Grant48:
Sorry for getting off topic, but... How do you like the Lancaster? Since they're American made, I assume they do not come covered in Cosmoline?
Click to expand...

No cosmoline - it arrived as a factory fresh build. Very nice fit and finish, at least as nice as any other AK I've laid my hands on.
 
Here are the results of pulling down 10rds from a box of two brands of Russian FMJ ammo. Monarch is the same ammo as Brown Bear,RAM, and Barnual just a different box.

966Monarch_7.jpg


9667_62x39_Uly.JPG



As you can see the bullet and powder charge weights are inconsistant. Note the sketch of the bullet above the Monarch measurements. The shank of the bullet measures .309" except the last .003" which is .310"-.311". This is a big factor in why the FMJ ammo is less accurate then the HP ammo.
 
Actually, I think I do know what I'm talking about.

Here's some data I pulled last year, that correlates with JA's.

All tests done on one 20 round box of each brand. Bullets pulled using RCBS collet puller.

Silver Bear FMJ 123g
Average total weight 253.3 grains
Maximum deviations
+2.3 (255.8) / -1.7 (251.8) grains

Average OAL 2.187 inches
Maximum deviations +.015 (2.202) / -.016 (2.171) inches
Average case length 1.516 inches
Maximum deviations +.006 (1.522) / -.003 (1.513) inches
Average bullet diameter .307 inches
Maximum deviations +.002 (.309) / -.002 (.305) inches
Average Bullet weight 123.27 grains
Maximum deviations from 123g +1.7 (124.7) - 2.1 (120.9)
Average powder charge 25.2 grains
Maximum deviations +.2 (25.4) / -.3 (24.9) grains

Bullet seating tension is highly variable, much like Golden Tiger. Some cartridges are extremely tight requiring a very strong lock on the collet to pull a bullet.

Golden Tiger FMJBT 124g
Average total weight 254.5 grains
Maximum deviations +2.2 (256.7) / -1.0 (253.5)
Average OAL 2.185 inches
Maximum deviations +.007 (2.192) / -.008 (2.177) inches
Average case length 1.516 inches
Maximum deviations + .003 (1.519) / -.002 (1.514) inches
Bullet diameter .310
Maximum deviations +/- .005
Average Bullet weight 123.72 grains
Maximum deviations from 124g + 0.6 (124.6) -1.4 (122.6) update: Finding the GT bullets to be much more inconsistent now. The last set of measurements found a low of 122.4 and a high of 125.9, similar results across 80 rounds disassembled.
Average Powder charge 25.505 grains
Maximum deviations +0.2 (25.7) - 0.2 (25.3)

Bullet seating tension is extremely variable. Some are so tight that the bullet cannot be removed without damaging it beyond use.

Wolf Black Box 122g JHP
Average total weight 251.9 grains
Maximum deviations 254.3 (+2.4) / 250.4 (-1.5)
Average OAL 2.183"
Maximum deviations 2.193 (+0.010) / 2.171 (-0.012)
Average case length 1.520"
Maximum deviations 1.525 (+0.005) / 1.516 (-0.004)
Bullet diameter .310
Maximum deviations +/- 0.0005 (insignificant)
Average Bullet weight 122.3 grains
Maximum deviations 123.6 (+1.3) / 121.1 (-1.2)
Average Powder charge 25.0grains
Maximum deviations 25.4 (+0.4) / 24.2 (-0.8)
Notes: Worse deviations compared to SB and GT cartridges. However bullet seating tension was FAR more consistent. Only 20 rounds disassembled, but only one round that required more than what I would consider "normal" tension on the collet to pull a bullet. The most difficult was much easier than the most difficult of both SB and GT. Comparable OAL, slightly better, than SB.


Measurements for various bullets for the 7.62x39 cartridge. Measurements are from 20 samples, chosen randomly.

Silver Bear 123g FMJ
Average weight in grains 123.27
maximum deviations from 123 grains +1.7 (124.7) / -2.1 (120.9)
Average Diameter .3099 (.310)
Maximum deviations from the average +.001 (311) / -.001 (309)
Average Length in inches 0.919476 (0.9195)
Maximum deviations from the average +.0065 (.926) / - .0045 (.915)

Golden Tiger 124 grain FMJBT
Average weight in grains 123.7
maximum deviations from 123 grains +0.9 (124.6) / - 1.1 (122.6)
Average Diameter .3098
Maximum deviations from the average +.0012 (0311) / -.0008 (.309)
Average Length in inches 1.049
Maximum deviations from the average +.004 (1.053) / - .006 (1.043)

Hornady 123 grain FMJ
Average weight in grains 122.9
maximum deviations from 123 grains +0.4 (123.3) / - 0.3 (122.6)
Average Diameter .310
Maximum deviations from the average +/- .001 (.311 or .309)
Average Length in inches 0.8719 (.872)
Maximum deviations from the average + .002 (.874) / - .003 (.869)

Sierra Pro Hunter 125 grain Spitzer
Average weight in grains 124.75
maximum deviations from 125 grains + 0.1 (125.1) / - 0.4 (124.6)
Average Diameter .31105
Maximum deviations from the average +.001 / -.001
Average Length in inches 0.9008
Maximum deviations from the average +.002 / - .004
 
I bought a Saiga with the factory 3.5x scope and mount in 1994. With Chinese steel core ammo it would shoot 2" groups at 100 yds. By the late 1990's my supply of Chinese ammo that was not in sealed tins started getting real low. So due to half of my collection of AK rifles not functioning with Russian hollow point ammo I buy only FMJ and soft point ammo. I tried every brand of Russian FMJ ammo and the best groups with it were 6"-8".
I had been pulling the bullets from Chinese ammo and seating pre production Hornady 124gr soft point bullets that measure .311" since the late 1980's for deer hunting. This ammo produced 2" groups in my Saiga. I swapped bullets in Russian FMJ ammo and the best groups were 4". This is when I did the measurements of the two brands of Russian ammo and came to the conclusion that the inconsistant powder charges were producing the 4" groups. So I pull the bullets from Russian ammo and weigh the powder charge in 10 rds. Dump the powder in my powder measure and set the powder measure to throw a charge weight that is the average of the 10 rds. Charge the cases and seat a Sierra 125gr .311" bullet.
This ammo produces 2" groups at 100 yds in my Saiga.
I stocked up on Russian ammo and Sierra bullets in the early 2000's before the big price increases of the last few years so I can load "match"
7.62x39mm ammo for $4.50 a box of 20rds.
 
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