Alternatives to AR-15 for Home Defense

[JShirley]

I think anything that reliably goes bang is a pretty good home defense weapon in the hands of someone who can reliably hit what is being shot at.

Good viewpoint.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of high velocity rifles as home defense weapons where the walls are mostly drywall. Chances are there will be at least one miss in who knows how many layers of drywall around might go through before it stops in some neighbors body.

Common misconception. Light bullets going fast tend to break up when hitting structure, while heavier, slower bullets tend to penetrate more deeply. I saw a ND with a 130 grain .270 about 35 years ago. Bullet penetrated the ceiling, fragmented, and impacted the attic ceiling in 2 or 3 places, but did not penetrate through. Almost all handgun bullets would have kept on going.

John

 

[GEM]

The Mini-14s are workable and antiban worthy in the plain Jane models until some smarter AWBs take them out. However, if you buy a carbine, do you plan to take a course with it (assuming you didn't run one in the service with appropriate usage training)? Also, do you compete with it? We ran carbine matches and while matches aren't 'training', they do get you practice in trigger, manipulation and sighting, more than the typical rifle range with static popping away at far targets.

 

[sharkman]

Around here, if things go bump in the night the first thing I’m reaching for is the bag of doggy treats. Long before I can do anything my girl will have taken care of business



If she needs help then I would grab my suppressed Colt 6920. Have a Colt 9mm carbine that I want to suppress and load with 147 gr subsonic that would be much quieter, that’s a future project…

 

[JShirley]

Pretty girl.

 

[aaaaa]

aaaaa, what's your living situation like? Urban/suburban/rural? Family?

Suburban, a short ways out of the city limits of Detroit, once known as and maybe still known as, the Murder Capitol.

AR-15 probably too high powered. Maybe a pistol caliber rifle would be good, 9mm.

Or a shotgun. I am giving my Winchester 97 to my son but might like to pick up a Mossberg 20 gauge. Would 20 gauge be quieter in the house than 12 gauge?

Didn't read the rest of your post yet, will later this evening when I get a little more time.

EDIT: Ok so the Beretta CX4 is a nice option with cheap ammo (9mm). Weird looking gun but if it gets the job done...

Oh, is a longer cartridge or those that narrow at the tip, going to feed better than short cartridges?

 

[entropy]

Not Really. Both are loud.

 

[C-grunt]

My main HD weapon is an AR. If im gunfighting in my house i want every advantage i can get. The AR gives me accuracy, low recoil, lethality, magazine capacity, ease of reload If needed, and easy to mount lights and optics.

Depending on how things go down i might end up with a Glock 17 sporting a Surefire X300U and a RMR. Not my ideal setup but i can still do work with it.

 

[C-grunt]

As far as the noise.... shooting guns indoors is very loud and bad for your hearing. But in the moment with you adrenaline pumping, it's not disabling and might not even be noticed.

 

[aaaaa]

Not Really. Both are loud.

So then the 12 gauge seems a better option unless one prefers a bit less recoil and whether the 20 gauge ammo is significantly cheaper.

 

[aaaaa]

Currently my home defense is a S&W SD9 VE with two 16-round magazines of 9mm. That should do in most situations short of a gang or rioters coming in. Also have my pants beside the bed with the S&W 642 in pocket for 5 extra rounds in .38 Special.

I have learned a good bit about AR and other options here and appreciate it, but at this point I am thinking maybe I am set with what I have or I might add either a short shotgun and/or a pistol caliber rifle.

 

[Space Ghost]

A lot of firearms could be used in the defensive role in the home. Pretty sure a handgun is the number 1 choice for most people. Doesn't make it the best.

The 12 gage shotgun is without a doubt, an absolutely devastating weapon. A handgun pails in comparison, but the shotgun is very heavy, and cumbersome. It holds less ammo, although that's not really an issue for a defensive weapon, as each round is so much more deadly. (this is providing, of course, you make each round count) Should you need to reload, however, it's a much slower process, requiring a lot more training, and each of those rounds produce a LOT more recoil to the shooter.

A rifle like the AR15 has standard magazines of 20 or 30 rounds giving you plenty of ammo, and reloads are easy to learn, and fast to do. Each of those rounds are accurate, pretty powerful (not 12 gage powerful, but WAY better then that any handgun) and produces very little recoil, making it extremely easy to learn to shoot well. That's the best part... being good with your chosen weapon. Hitting your target is what you need to do. Having a rifle, with plenty of a capable round, in a fast handling easy to shoot package.
If you have a red dot sight, you also have unmatched speed of target acquisition.
That's a hard combo to beat.
Especially if it has a light mounted on it, (like EVERY defensive weapon should have) because bad guys love the dark.

Now, as far as loud noises go...
ANY firearm you discharge in the confined space of your home is gonna be loud as all hell. Shotgun, rifle, pistol... don't matter.
You think your .357 mag is less loud than my AR? Maybe, but you'll never be able to tell the difference at the time, and my AR doesn't have a cylinder gap right in front of the chamber.
Sorry, but loud bangs are something your just gonna have to endure.
DEAL with it...
Your LIFE is on the line.
Your ears will stop ringing after a bit... IF you live through it.

 

[JShirley]

.

AR-15 probably too high powered. Maybe a pistol caliber rifle would be good, 9mm.

Why do people keep saying this? A properly chosen 5.56 bullet will penetrate less structure than any 9mm.

 

[Nuclear]

There are a couple of pretty effective was to deal with the loud noises from a firearm. One is a silencer (aka sound suppressor). But a lot of people don’t like the cost, paperwork, long wait time and perception of Big Brother. Ok, the other way is less expensive, requires no paperwork or wait time other than shipping. And can improve your hearing awareness through amplification. It is called electronic hearing protection, and it works so well, it is used in training, competition and hunting.

Personally I have an AR, backup PCC and handgun, just to cover all my bases.

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

aaaaa, what's your living situation like? Urban/suburban/rural? Family?

These posts talking about sound/hearing crack me up. If I'm in a position where I may need to shoot someone in defense of myself or family, that is my LAST concern. Adrenaline pumping also reduces hearing.

I thought about this recently and decided if I wanted a long gun, I'd probably go with a Beretta CX4 carbine in 9 mm. It's short enough to be handy inside, has Pic rail for a light. They make frangible ammo with shot in the tip that's designed not to penetrate as much drywall, but is still enough when it hits a person. It's expensive, something like $3-5 a round. I'd think hard about that. Can't afford to practice with it, but it would be worth having a few rounds in case of self defense.

MY living situation is a suburban house with 2 daughters and a wife. The older daughter is 16, has ADD and impulsivity issues and no common sense at all. She recently pointed a gun at me in jest immediately after I taught her the rules of safe gun handling. It was an impulse control thing and she immediately regretted it, but that made me realize I can't trust her at all.

It light of ↑ I keep a Ruger SP-101 with 38 +P hollow points for HD, but it's in a locked handgun box with the key hidden. I'm not at all sure I would wake up and get to it in time, but I'll take my odds on that before I allow the older daughter to do something stupid or maybe sneak a boy in when I'm not home who would do something stupid. I'll upgrade to one of those quick safes at some point soon to knock a few seconds off my response time.

Another practical factor for me is that I usually sleep with earplugs in, or my wife wakes me up at night. She gets up at least once every night to go potty, and when I wake up, I can't just go back to sleep like she can. I feel bad the whole next day. She gets up in the morning an hour or so before I do and wakes me up too. Being practical, I'm dead to the world and I wouldn't wake up unless she woke me up. That probably wouldn't happen either, as she sleeps with earplugs because of my snoring.

The more I think of it, the more I think I'd be better served by beefing up my home's security: auto-sensing lights w/cameras, better lock on the back door, etc. Maybe even a dog that would sleep without ear plugs, hehehe.

It's short size does make the CX4 very handy despite it having a 16" barrel. It's also easy to handle with one hand if you need to

 

[entropy]

So then the 12 gauge seems a better option unless one prefers a bit less recoil and whether the 20 gauge ammo is significantly cheaper.

20 ga. Ammo, particularly in good Home Defense ammo (00 buck, but not the cheap stuff like Fetter and such) is more expensive, and harder to find. When you get into the HD ammo level, they all kick hard.
So I'd say unless you have a physical/medical issue that recoil would aggravate, 12 is the better option.
Recoil levels are noticed in training/familiarization firing. You won't notice it much, if at all if you need to fire it for HD. Adrenaline diminshes the perception of the effects.

 

[Smaug]

It sounds like the OP has a 9 mm full size pistol and a 38 snubby back-up.

Get a light to go with the pistol, either mounted to it or separate. Got to know for sure what you’re going to shoot.

Then, pick some appropriate home defense ammo. I’m thinking of either the frangible stuff I mentioned earlier or some of the new super-light, super high velocity stuff.

A shotgun with Buck shot would be good too and probably easier to hit with under stress. Just get one that can mount a light, if you go that route.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, a hit with a 38 Special WC-a 38 S&W-hurts a lot more than a miss with a .357. Likewise being peppered with bird or skeet shot will probably stop an assailant PDQ.

 

[entropy]

Are you willing to bet your life on that? I know one round of 00 Buck will stop an assailant PDQ.

 

[JShirley]

Are you willing to bet your life on that? I know one round of 00 Buck will stop an assailant PDQ.

There are few absolutes. I know of "failures to stop" with up to 40mm grenade launcher (shell lodged in jaw without detonating). I had a super annoying squirrel I shot with S&B 00, about 24 years ago. I had to shoot him twice, because he was very much alive and moving after the 1st shot. My deceased friend Byron knew a guy he thought was "set up" by a girlfriend. Hit twice with 20 gauge slugs, he was still talking when the ambulance arrived (but DOA at the hospital).

Yeah, I believe shotguns (except .410s) loaded with anything other than birdshot or rubber bullets tend to decisively end attacks at close range. I also believe overpenetration to rarely be an issue if you hit your target. If you miss with a 12 gauge, members should be aware only #4 buck can effectively stop a threat yet will be contained reasonably in structure. The other issue, already mentioned, is recoil. If the first round doesn't immediately work, the modern fighting carbine is much faster for almost everyone to get a second or more rounds into the fight.

Several lightweight .223 or 5.56mm rounds are the only loads that can decisively end a fight, yet are stopped almost immediately in structural materials. A couple of 9mm specialty loads are almost as effectively stopped by walls. Again, don't miss, and you're probably okay with almost everything except FMJ and saboted slugs.

John

 

[bearcreek]

Seems everyone is getting AR-15s but are there not alternatives for home defense that are worth a look?

I kind of like the Ruger Mini14 Tactical, but it is expensive. Same ammo as AR-15, but only holds 20 in the magazine. Maybe larger magazines can be had?

Alternately for a budget purchase, there is Kel Tech. They have a .22 Magnum carbine that holds 30 rounds. Seems this would not be a bad option for home defense.

However, the more it looks like a regular hunting rifle, the more I like it, such as the Ruger Mini 14.

It sounds like you're confusing two distinct subjects, appearance and effectiveness. If you're looking for something that meets your idea of good looking, get whatever you like. If you're looking for the best tool for the job, get what works. We can debate what works (and we have, ad nauseam) but what works has nothing whatsoever to do with looks.

 

[bearcreek]

These posts talking about sound/hearing crack me up. If I'm in a position where I may need to shoot someone in defense of myself or family, that is my LAST concern.

That's why you think about it before you're in that situation, not during.

Adrenaline pumping also reduces hearing.

But not permanently, like shooting a centerfire firearm indoors does.

 

[aaaaa]

It sounds like you're confusing two distinct subjects, appearance and effectiveness. If you're looking for something that meets your idea of good looking, get whatever you like. If you're looking for the best tool for the job, get what works. We can debate what works (and we have, ad nauseam) but what works has nothing whatsoever to do with looks.

You are right. Get the most effective tool for the job even if it is ugly. I have trouble separating my sense of aesthetic from utility in this case.

 

[Rodfac]

I'd suggest a good pump shotgun, (Remington's justly famous model 870 or one of the knock off clones is just the ticket IMHO) & set up for improved cylinder or wide open choke; maybe with an extended magazine.

A 12 Ga is good but a 20 Ga might be a bit easier to handle with its lower recoil. Ours here on the farm (both 12's) are loaded with #4 buckshot, but both also have rifle type open sights which I've sighted in for slugs.

They are formidable weapons, easy to operate, and while effective to 50 yds or so: can be awkward for some in tight spaces were a pistol would be more useful. Easy to point and hit with, shotguns are less liable to over-penetration issues than any rifle. YMMv, Rod

 

[bearcreek]

You are right. Get the most effective tool for the job even if it is ugly. I have trouble separating my sense of aesthetic from utility in this case.

I get it. We're gun guys and gals. We enjoy our tools and want them to look good. I do construction and picked a certain color when I bought a new tool belt just cause I liked that color. The key is to not let our "fashion sense" get in the way of logic. I'm not gonna get into the whole AR vs. Mini debate. That dead horse has been a favorite one for folks on internet forums to continue beating for many years. Just encouraging you to look at the different factors objectively.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

The issue I have with the 12 Gauge in close quarter conflicts typical of HD is that the shot doesn't have time to spread so you have to aim it the same as if it were a rifle and the big recoil slows my followup shots. I can line up my sights on the target for followup shots much faster with a pistol caliber repeating carbine.

My current HD carbine is a Marlin 1894 loaded with 44 Special +P. However as much as I love the Marlin my ideal gun for HD is a semiauto carbine in 45 ACP.