Alzheimer's & Firearms

[Shadan7]

I haven't been around here a lot the last few months. Partly that has been due to two large sequences of tests for BBTI that I think will excite a lot of folks: our long-awaited 'cylinder gap' tests, and then full testing of .22 cal ammo (also .223). Look for all of that data to show up on BBTI later this month.

I've also been entirely preoccupied in getting a new book out. Related to that is a column I wrote last week for Guns.com on a topic which I think deserves further discussion: Alzheimer's & Firearms. Here's an excerpt:

This problem is most commonly seen in the “when do we take the car keys away?” question, which usually comes up well before someone has traveled very far along the road to dementia. And many states have mechanisms in place to address it – by requiring people over a given age to take driving tests, or putting the onus on doctors to report when a patient should no longer be driving. But to the best of my knowledge, there is no mechanism in place in any state that addresses the question of aging as it relates to gun ownership. So this is left up to the friends and families.

As I think it should be. The problem is that too often those friends and family members are unwilling to have that hard conversation.

It's not a simple matter in any way, shape, or form. You want to have and show respect for your friends and loved ones, while at the same time making sure that if they are no longer able to be responsible that they are not a danger to themselves or others.

There's more in the article, but I am also wanting to hear what others think of this matter. Have you had to have that "hard conversation" or take other action? Have you thought about how you want the matter handled if you start showing signs of age-related dementia?

Jim Downey

 

[oneounceload]

Think of it this way - with Alzheimer's, you get to meet new friends every day and shoot new guns every day

OK, a little poking sarcastic humor - but I shoot at a shotgun club where the average age is 75 and I am the baby in my mid-50's/ Some of the guys are starting down that road, between that, dementia, and a host of other physical and mental issues, we have folks who need help just standing up. But we all pitch in to make sure they have some fun - for some of these folks, the day at the club is the highlight of their week - everyone makes sure things are safe and we give them some last memories of a good time.

There is no one-size-fits-all category so take each person one at a time and cherish the times you have with them

 

[Vern Humphrey]

First of all, how many people with Alzheimer's have committed crimes or had accidents with guns?

Until we know that, we're in the old anti-gun position of, "Well, it could happen!"

 

[Shadan7]

Crimes, Vern? I doubt any incidents involving a gun would be considered a crime, if it involves someone suffering from age-related dementia.

But anyone who has worked to care for a family member who has suffered with Alzheimer's or some other related problem, or has seen what is involved in that care , knows that there comes a point where you have to take away their car keys if they haven't already willingly dealt with that themselves. It is not in any way an anti-gun position to recognize this and discuss it.

Jim D.

 

[CoRoMo]

Good article. Surely the car keys go before anyone even thinks about the guns.

An episode where the old fella finds himself lost in a part of town that should be familiar, isn't an episode that makes me think he's unsafe with firearms.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It is not in any way an anti-gun position to recognize this and discuss it.

It is until we can show actuall harm.

What this leads to is giving someone power over the rights of another person for no good reason.

 

[antiquus]

I know guys in the 80's that shoot regularly, some in their 70's that still go to Camp Perry. Car keys and firearms are pretty comparable in my opinion, if your judgment is too impaired for one, the other should be suspect IMO. I expect a typical elderly living in a high crime or isolated area should be allowed a little more leeway re: guns, but not a lot.

 

[Shadan7]

Simple age isn't the issue, antiquus - lots of folks maintain solid judgment even as their memory or reflexes start to fail. There's no reason why they should not be able to continue to own, use, and even carry.

It's more to do with age-related dementia. Unfortunately, too often those who wind up caring for someone with this kind of problem isn't a gun owner, and doesn't know what to do - which is why I think that those of us who do understand and value guns should address the question (as I say in the article - it breaks my heart every time I hear about someone's spouse or child taking an heirloom to a "gun buy-back" or some other event where it will just be destroyed).

Jim D.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I expect a typical elderly living in a high crime or isolated area should be allowed a little more leeway re: guns, but not a lot.

First of all, "a typical elderly" does not have Alzheimer's or any other form of dementia -- I know, I helped my wife do the research when she set up the Alzheimer's wing in the largest nursing home in Virginia.

Secondly, who is doing the "allowing?" Are we setting up another bureaucracy to make those decisions for us?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

it breaks my heart every time I hear about someone's spouse or child taking an heirloom to a "gun buy-back" or some other event where it will just be destroyed.

That most often happens when the gun owner dies. Which is why we should all have a will, and be sure our loved ones understand our intentions.

 

[Cosmoline]

A will is a must for any valuable collection, but in some ways it's better to distribute the prizes BEFORE death or a dread disease makes that impossible. An open conversation with everyone in the family is a great way to avoid the bitter squabbles that very frequently arise after death or dementia has come.

I can tell you that no such frank conversation was held prior to the deaths of several of my grandparents, and the results have caused splits that remain to this day. Typically over bits of personal property not worth more than a C note. If you're talking about a prized firearm worth thousands plus sentimental value, things can get extra ugly.

 

[Loosedhorse]

It is until we can show actuall harm.

What this leads to is giving someone power over the rights of another person for no good reason.

Well, I disagree. And I think the answer is pretty simple.

Is the person still making his/her own decisions? If they are paying the bills, telling the doctor yes/no, etc. then they are "competent," and get to make decisions about firearms, too. And get to bear the consequences of mistakes. Nothing prevents friends and family from advising that person, but "taking the keys away" without consent is not right.

However, many demented persons eventually reach the point where the have surrendered decisions to others. In this case, someone else (usually NOK) has guardianship, either voluntarily or by court ruling. In either case, guardianship should be formal, legal, on paper; if nothing else, that way a demented person who signs a document designed to steal his/her savings is not held to that signature. And the person has now become a ward, and decisions, including firearms decisions, are the responsibility of the guardian.

There is no need to wait for actual harm. Most demented persons see the need for a guardianship and agree. For the rest, the concerned NOK can take the matter to court, with testimony of treating doctors, and the decision is made there.

A durable power of attorney agreement is related, allowing a designate to make decisions if the person is unable; it usually does not contain a mechanism for resolving disputes if the designate claims the person is incompetent, but the person disagrees.

http://www.dementiacarecentral.com/node/575

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A will is a must for any valuable collection, but in some ways it's better to distribute the prizes BEFORE death or a dread disease makes that impossible. An open conversation with everyone in the family is a great way to avoid the bitter squabbles that very frequently arise after death or dementia has come.

Agreed. Plan ahead.

 

[SSN Vet]

I don't have much first hand experience with elder care.... though my time will be coming sooner than later, as my parents are in their 80's.

One sad example that I do have first hand experience with is that of an woman in her 70's with Alzheimer's who would become hostile and hit her husband as he tried to assist her in the bathroom or getting into bed. He was also on the same slippery slope and would get frustrated and hit her back (with greater effect).

In home care from a live in friend helped for a while, but a year later they were beyond the ability of their friends to help.

That kind of lashing out seemed to be more of a spontaneous response to annoyance though. I don't think there was enough cognation going on upstairs to go and get an implement to cause greater harm.

Those suffering from Alzheimer's and dementia often seem to get irrationally paranoid as well. (and with crooks and con men abounding, it's hard to blame them). I think this is a more risky situation, as they may be sitting in the Lazy-boy watching the tube with a firearm nearby for home defense. Lord help the paperboy who comes collecting and is mistaken for a robber.

I'd lean to-wards enabling the family to legally take the steps they think are necessary... perhaps with a doctor's concurrence, before I'd give the government yet another power to abuse.

The problem is that we aren't all living at the Clever household and the "family" and the "crooks" might be one in the same.

 

[hermannr]

Folks, the mechanisms are already all in place. Not somethng to worry about. If I (or any other person) is unfortunate enough to get one of the deadly three (Altzhimers, Parkensons, or true dementia) and are far enough done that road to no longer be able to care for ourselves, the court will appoint a guardian who then becomes responsible for what is ours.

It makes no difference why you are physically or mentally disabled to the point you can no longer conduct your own affairs, IF you are, you will have a guardian appointed. Usually a family member, but not always.

I am old enough now that I have been doing my planning. What child/grandchild gets which weapon(s) etc. I have my reasons for making my choices, you will have yours, but somewhere in your papers, do have what you want done should you no longer "need" them (or even legally cannot posses them anymore). As was already mentioned, expecially true if some of the weapons are worth a few thousand or more each.

One thing to remember, it may not be your child or grandchild that is the problem, it may be their spouse...

 

[MisterMike]

Occasionally, something comes up on line where I can actually make some contribution. This might be one of those occasions.

My dad died in January, after a protracted battle with a variety of conditions that became more profound over a period of a couple of years. Ultimately, dementia took its toll, but it was quite a learning experience for me. First, I'd note that there was a time when I took his guns. He didn't have much--just a shotgun and a pistol--but his behavior suggested to me that it was within the realm of the possible that he might inadvertently hurt or kill himself or another. I probably should have done it earlier, but you hate to intervene in your parents' lives. This was at the same time I had his driver's license revoked and took away his keys; again, a situation that I let go too long: several fender benders and a handful of incidents where he became totally lost finally convinced me that I had to act out of a sense of responsibility to others.

Before assuming that dementia is caused by physical deterioration, there are, however, a few things to check. First, my dad was seeing multiple doctors and when he first began to exhibit confusion, I went to his place, wrote down the name and dosage of every medication he was on, then ran the info through the drug interaction checker on drugs.com. What I found was alarming--his various doctors had prescribed medications that had the potential for serious interactions, some of which resulted in confusion, disorientation, and forgetfulness. I took him to his primary care doc, and we eliminated almost two-thirds of what he was taking. This had a pretty immediate effect, making him more much clear-headed, but ultimately we were fighting the ravages of time. Along the way, I also learned that infections in the elderly--something as simple as a urinary tract infection--can cause symptoms similar to dementia.

But, time moved on. It got worse. Ultimately, he became delusional and paranoid. We segued to a mental health hospital for a period of time. Things got better. Then, what physical faculties he had remaining began to crumble. All tied to advancing dementia. Ultimately, he became nearly vegetative, hung on for a few weeks, and faded away. Horrible.

So, while we all joke about Alzheimer's, the truth is that it's more than forgetfulness. It, along with a variety of health issues, can result in a person who's otherwise been mentally healthy his whole life, tumbling into psychosis. Dad forgetting where he's put his keys is probably not a cause for great alarm, but it may be a precursor to more profound problems. Ultimately, dementia--whether caused by neurological deterioration, drug interactions, infections, or a host of factors--can lead to a situation where a person shouldn't have access to those things with which he could harm himself or others.

I haven't a shred of doubt that when I took my dad's guns it was the right thing to do. It was just terribly sad to have to do it.

 

[Yeager]

First of all, how many people with Alzheimer's have committed crimes or had accidents with guns?

Until we know that, we're in the old anti-gun position of, "Well, it could happen!"

Tell that to the 82 year old woman who can't control her aggressive brother that sits in his own feces all day and pisses on the wall. Look her in the eyes after her flesh and blood refused to get in the shower and hurt her so badly that she ended up in the hospital and tell her that he needs to retain control of his firearms.

I disarmed him myself.

Her safety > His gun "rights"

It's just common sense that when you get to that point you don't need anything resembling a firearm.

 

[Shadan7]

MisterMike, I'm sorry for your loss. Losing a parent is never easy. And having to go through it in that way is in some ways harder than most others.

But you did the right thing - the hard thing.

Jim D.

 

[murdoc rose]

It all comes down to the situation, everyone's is different and while I don't feel there needs to be a legal mandate I do think its something that should talked about and dealt with.

In my younger teenage years my great grandmother who was in her upper 90s was diagnosed with dementia. I know of at least two firearms that where more than likely loaded that resided with her. I'm sure it was not discussed and thinking about it now it seems like they should have been moved.

Currently I have two elderly grand parents living on their own. One of them is in the early state of alzhimers. While most of the firearms where stolen close to 20 years ago there are still roughly 10-15 in the house. As it stands I don't see a problem but with time I feel they will be distributed. It has been discussed but more in a value oriented way than a safety way. I do think there is a line and when the time comes I would like to think things will be dealt with.

 

[SSN Vet]

wrote down the name and dosage of every medication he was on..... I took him to his primary care doc, and we eliminated almost two-thirds of what he was taking.

So much for improvements in the health care system.

This is EXACTLY what my father had to do with his dad, back in the late 70s when I was a teenager.

Grandpa never forgave him and would often complain "if you hadn't taken my pills away..."

No need to worry about guns or car keys though, grandma had snuggled up to some lawyer and cleaned him out by then

 

[pyth0n]

Vern Humphrey #9,

Ditto. I was getting the impression this topic was being used as a feeler for legislation for an up coming epidemic of Alzheimers's related mass killings.

It's a family matter and should be handled by the family. To much family business is turned over to the government because the family doesn't want to make the hard decisions. And if at all possible those decisions are made before a family member to gets hurt. Stay close with the family so the changes can be detected. Ask others in family what they've noticed.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Tell that to the 82 year old woman who can't control her aggressive brother that sits in his own feces all day and pisses on the wall. Look her in the eyes after her flesh and blood refused to get in the shower and hurt her so badly that she ended up in the hospital and tell her that he needs to retain control of his firearms.

This is a nation of 300+ million people. There's a reason why anecdotal evidence is not accepted when it comes to establishing general policy.

 

[jdietz]

I have a friend that I have shot with for 25+ years and I am afraid he is developing Alzheimer's or dementia.

He was teaching a concealed carry class recently and could not remember that several students had shot IDPA and IPSC matches with him. He could not remember questions asked of him or that he had asked the class and gave credit for several wrong answers.

I attempted to talk to his doctor (another shooter and competitor) about this but he was unwilling to address the problem.

I know his family very well but I do not know how to start a conversation about this.

Great thread! It is something we will all face.

Thank you.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I attempted to talk to his doctor (another shooter and competitor) about this but he was unwilling to address the problem.

His doctor's primary responsibility in the context of a conversation with you is protecting patient confidentiality. So, his nonresponsiveness may not mean lack of concern, or inactivity on his part.

If I have misunderstood, and he announced: "Yeah, he's got brain rot, but so what?" then we have two good reasons not to like him!

 

[KingMedicine]

Well, my mom has Alzheimer's, and im a shooter, so i dont have quite an answer for this percay. But i can say that Alzheimer's isnt as black and white as it sounds. My mom can live alone, drive, do everything she could do before it to the point that some of her friends dont know she has it. When you know her as well as her son, you notice that things are not quite on. She will forget simple issues, forget what she was doing, she cant handle simple directions and new tasks that are not engrained in her memory. She can drive to her house from anywhere around town like its second nature. You add a street closure, and shes a wreck crying about the change. Its a hard condition to fully understand.

Personally, it would be time to have a talk about the subject if she did have firearms in the house. I would not be worried about someone mishandling a firearm, but i would be worried about logic in a new situation being flawed.

Im no doctor tho, but i did say in a holiday inn last night...