AMMO for 454Casul/45LC: re-loads

[Huntolive]

Hello,

I am getting 454/45 SRHH 7.5" brl, primarily for hunting deer, and larger game.
I plan to mount Ultradot 30.

Question is about ammo:

I had planned to use mostly hand loaded hot 45LC for deer hunting, and most applications, and only us 454 when power was needed, or wanted for "fun".

Some have suggested using 454 brass exclusively. This would mean "downloading" it for lighter, lower recoil rounds, as I do not want or need the full force and abuse of the 454 power all the time.

This would avoid the issue of the "crud ring" that causes 454 brass to stick when fired after 45LC. But could it cause reduced accuracy?

Pros/Cons???

 

[CraigC]

Personally, I would heed the advice about using .454 cases and load to the desired velocity. If you're handloading, there's really no reason not to and you avoid the crud ring. For deer and average sized hogs, standard weight bullets (250-260gr) are plenty and a good cast bullet will exit from any angle 99% of the time. A good 275-280gr LBT would also be a very good choice. For jacketed bullets, which tend to anchor deer a little quicker, I love the bonded-core Gold Dot all over the XTP. Which often suffers from jacket/core separation. I would drive them no faster than 1300-1400fps and you can do that easily enough with 2400 or 4227. Dick Casull pushed 260's at 2000fps in .45Colt brass when developing the cartridge and while that may impress the numbers worshipers, it does you no good in the real world.

 

[USSR]

.454 Casul for deer? A bit of overkill, don't you think? I hunt them 4 legged varmints with my .45LC S&W 25-5 with the following load: cast 265gr HP with 18.0gr of 2400 in a Starline case. If this load will shoot through a deer from stem to stern, what more do you need?

Don

 

[highlander 5]

I have an LBT mould block that casts a 320 gr WNFP and even loaded to the front crimp groove is too long for my SRH. Use the 45 Colt cases for "lighter" loads,cleaning the crud ring is not that big a deal.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks, but I am new to re-loading, so what is LBT, is that like a BLT with the lettuce on top? WNFP?

I realize 45LC is plenty for deer. As I stated, using 45LC was my original plan, but many have suggested 454 exlucsively, but downloaded to reasonable levels. I am still confused. I'll try to get used to it! ;-)

 

[rcmodel]

LBT bullet molds.
http://www.lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml

Thier WFN (Wide Flat Nose) are noted for hunting bullet design.

rc

 

[hardluk1]

USSR A 454 brass can be loaded down to 1000 to 1100 fps with a 260gr bullet would make a fine deer load and a mild shooter. What do you see wrong with that. Loaded to 1200fps it matchs your loads. 800 to 1000 fps for range time with the better half or teenages. Then if used to go after a trophy moose or brown bear it can be stepped up to 360 gr hardcast at 1400fps or a 435gr at 1200fps. Seems like a do it all big bore round. Specialy if you get a good buy it the 454. Soft and light shooting to hard and heavy.

 

[USSR]

USSR A 454 brass can be loaded down to 1000 to 1100 fps with a 260gr bullet would make a fine deer load and a mild shooter. What do you see wrong with that.

.45 Colt brass is cheaper and easier to come by. I load my .45 Colt load to that velocity, and the powder comes nowhere's near to filling the case. Only gonna be more dead air space in the longer case. Just MHO.

Don

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks guys.

Question: I have been told by an expereinced re-loader that I can use 45LC dies to load 454. Is that correct? Pros/Cons?

Also, what is the potential problem with the "dead air space" in a downloaded 454 case? Can this hurt accuracy?
How can this be avoided? Use of slower burning powders? Someone mentioned trail boss?

 

[Hammerdown77]

You can use 45 Colt dies for 454, I know guys who go that route, and it will work ok. However, I find I get better neck tension on the bullet using 454 specific dies from RCBS. Neck tension is important in 454 full power loads, because every time you fire the gun the recoil is trying to pull the bullets out of the cases of the remaining rounds.

What I did was buy the RCBS 3-die carbide set for the 454 Casull, and added a Lee Factory Crimp Die. The LFCD is the same between the 454 and the 45 Colt. I could also use these RCBS dies for 45 Colt I guess, but I don't because I don't want to mess with readjusting them every time I want to move from loading one to the other.

 

[Huntolive]

What would be the simplest, most cost effective die I could get for 454?
Or am I fine with 45LC dies? Having never bought one...???
My neighbor has all the presses and 45 and 44 dies, etc. I can use whenever.

 

[highlander 5]

I have 2 set ups for my 45 colt and 454,the Colt dies are from Dillon but the 454 dies are from Redding. Redding uses titanium carbide rather than tungsten carbide and I can tell the difference between the 2 on my 650. My only complaint with Redding is if your loading cast bullets you may have to call them for the correct seating punch. They will send it free of charge but you have to ask for it.

 

[highlander 5]

I just remembered something if you buy a set of 45 Colt dies and your using a single stage press you can switch back and forth by using a 1/8" washer to raise the 45 Colt dies to load 454. I think Redding may sell a set of spacers to do the same thing.

 

[Huntolive]

Approx price for 454 dies?
Or can I really get by w/o my bullets flying apart under recoil, using the 45 dies to make 454?

Or does the inovation of using the washer really work?

 

[rcmodel]

The washer spacer works fine, but not in your calibers.

The .454 case is 1.383" long.
The .45 Colt case is 1.285" long.

A differance of .098".

1/8" is .125", so a 1/8" washer won't work.

Still, .45 Colt dies can be used to load .454 just fine.

You just have to adjust the seating/crimp die accordingly by screwing it in or out of the press .098" and locking the lock-ring.

Die spacers for .44 Spl/.44 Mag (.125") and 38 Spl/357 Mag (.135").
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:die-spacer-kit

rc

 

[Hammerdown77]

The least expensive option is going to be getting a 4-die carbide set of Lee 45 Colt Dies. You can load 454 Casull with these just fine. They usually cost around $36 for the set from a place like Midway USA.

RCBS would probably be the next bump up in price. Then Redding.

 

[Huntolive]

Ok, so Hamrdwn77, what about the issue you raisde about recoil possibly causing bullets to come apart?

rcmodel, is it much extra work to adjust the crimp die and locking the lock ring? Or is that a normal part of the process? Or is it worth it to just buy a set of 454 dies for $40, and simolify the process, or does buying the 454 dies not give much advantage. I already have access to 45lc dies free.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Buy a set of dies for. 454 they don't cost that much more and will also load .45 Colt better than. 45 Colt dies will since neck tension will be better.

Make sure to buy a carbide resizing die so you don't have to lube cases. Also pick up a separate crimp die so you don't have to crimp when you seat bullets. Trying to put a heavy neck down crimp on while seating a bullet in the same stage is virtually impossible. So you will have four total dies in the set once you buy everything.

 

[Prosser]

Don't buy anything. Use the stuff your friend has, under his supervision. IF you have problems, then start looking at other solutions.

With the loads you are likely to shoot I don't think much of this concern about bullet pulling is going to happen. That 3.3 pound gun is going to slow down a LOT of the recoil. Your target load generates this for recoil:
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps.

That's NOTHING. my .45 Super loads recoil about that much. When you start getting bullet pull is with heavier loads, or a much lighter gun.

For instance my 360PD Scandium has bullet pull issues. It gives you numbers like this:
148 grains 1131 fps:
Recoil Energy of 19 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 40 fps.
Notice the VERY high Recoil velocity. This is what pulls bullets. It's the gun accelerating suddenly, and slamming the remaining rounds around.
Even at that speed, no bullet pull issues. Those start happening with full power .357 loads, like 158's at 1591 fps(thats the load data, I don't get that in my snubbie)
Recoil Energy of 43 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 61 fps.
I shot one round, unloaded the gun, and went back to something that wouldn't cut my finger and break my wrist.

If I heavy load my .500 Linebaugh Maximum, 525's at 1550 fps, I get these numbers:
Recoil Energy of 71 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 36 fps.
My gun is near the same weight as yours, and as you can see it's really hard to get the gun moving near as fast as some of the light guns.

What I'm trying to say is I don't see much you can load in your gun that's going to pull bullets.

In my old Seville the most I ever shot was 360 grains at 1550 fps:
Recoil Energy of 40 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 28 fps.
Even that didn't pull bullets. Those rounds loaded in .45 Colt brass, with .45 Colt dies.

If you run 260's with H110, at Max velocity 1954 fps, at 51,600 CUP
you get:
Recoil Energy of 37 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 27 fps.
That's STILL not bullet pull area in your gun, unless you really limp wrist it and just let the gun go.

I used to fill the .45 Colt case with H110, load a 230 grain super hard cast ball on top, and go plinking.
This load would run about 1900-2000 fps. While I would have liked a LFN
type bullet, I always thought this load would work for bears, deer, mountain lions or drug guys in our mountains.

That bit of insanity NEVER pulled a bullet, and I was loading with a Dillon 550 and standard .45 colt dies.

To put it simple:
Don't throw away money you don't have to for something that isn't going to happen.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Yep, Prosser is right. Use what you have access to right now for a bit and then determine what you want to buy next.

I did not mean to give the impression that bullet pull was a common thing. It is a concern, like Prosser said, in the lighter weight guns with heavy recoil, and heavy bullets. In the 454, the one you hear about it the most is with the Ruger Alaskan. Usually with factory ammo using a jacketed bullet (most of which do not have a very deep crimp groove). In fact, in that famous internet post about the guy shooting the charging brown bear with his Ruger Alaskan and killing it, the part that is often left out is that his revolver jammed up due to bullet pull (after the third or fourth shot, I believe).
A feller here in town also jammed up his Freedom Arms 454 with bullet pull. He was using bullets that came right out to the end of the cylinder throats, and just a little bit of bullet jump resulted in the next bullet being just a hair past the end of the cylinder, which hit on the forcing cone and prevent the cylinder from rotating. I think that was a shorter barreled FA, although I'm not sure.

In the bigger SRH, I doubt you'd have problems.

 

[Huntolive]

Ok, so I will plan 2 use the 45lc dies w/ 454 cases.
CD, etc, please explain about the carbide resizing die, and crimp die.
Lubing cases?

Are the above normally included in standard 45lc die sets?

Also, 4 getting started, where can I buy downloaded/soft 454 factory ammo so I can start shooting if I have a delay in re-loading? I am looking for something like 260 grns at 1100 fps or 250 at 12000-1300 fps.

Alternatively, where can I quickly get the 454 "starline" or other brass and powder/small rifle primers?
Do all 454 rounds, regardless of pressure require small rifle primers? Or can softer 454 loads use pistol primers?



Thanks!

 

[USSR]

Huntolive,

You're making yourself more work than necessary. Just load 18.0 - 18.5gr of 2400 behind a 255 - 270gr SWC in a Starline .45LC case and, voila, instant 1100fps deer load.

Don

 

[Coal Dragger]

Carbide resizing dies will be noted on the box the dies are stored in, and can be identified by the recessed ring of metal at the bottom of the die. This metal ring is the actual tungsten carbide re-sizer. This material is harder than normal tool steel and also takes on a very smooth low friction surface finish. Thus allows re-sizing brass without the need to lubricate cases, which would otherwise get stuck in the die or be extremely difficult to work. Don't worry too much about thus since most strait wall pistol cartridge reloading dies sold today come with a carbide resizing die. There are still some non carbide dies still sild though, so if you need to buy dies spend the extra money for carbide.

For downloaded .454 ammo your best bet is Winchester Super X 250gr hollow points at 1300fps. They are pleasant to shoot and accurate.

For brass, powder, primers, and bullets there is probably a local dealer you can order or buy from. Failing that I get components from Midway USA. They have a website, and their customer service is excellent. Natchez Shooters Supply is another excellent online source.

Stick with small rifle primers by the way, a small pistol primer won't have enough power.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks,

USSR, That was my 1st plan, but there seem 2 b advantages to 454 cases due to my owning a 45lc Judge, so I'd hate to accidentally put a hot 45 in that, and 454 avoids the crud ring, and other possible wear to the gun.

But, I would like to hear you argument for sticking w/ the 45lc, as I almost got sick to my stomach when i saw the prices of 454 brass, plus it is hard to find. Starline 454 is backordered, while 45lc and 44Mag is widely available, at about 1/2 the price. I am now even considering just getting the 44Mag, and walking away from the 454 altogether.

 

[Plastikosmd]

I love my 454, plenty of brass on sites like gunbroker etc. I still am on my first brass, maybe 5-6 years of owing it. 100 rounds will last a while, YMMV