AMMO for 454Casul/45LC: re-loads

[USSR]

...due to my owning a 45lc Judge, so I'd hate to accidentally put a hot 45 in that, and 454 avoids the crud ring, and other possible wear to the gun.

Okay, let's deal with your issues. First, there are a lot of ways to identify different loads in the same cartridge case. Using different cases, or primers such as nickle plated ones for one type of load, brass for another are useful indicators. Or, using different bullets for different loads. Or, as a last resort, marking the cases with a black magic marker to indicate how the cartridge is loaded. The crud ring is a non-issue. Guys have been shooting .38 Specials out of .357 Magnums and .44 Specials out of .44 Magnums for years without problems. You simply run your cleaning rod through the chambers which takes all of 5 minutes. Wear to the gun? You are using loads that develop pressure well below what the gun is designed to handle, so there is actually less wear than the manufacturer expects. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[Prosser]

"But, I would like to hear you argument for sticking w/ the 45lc, as I almost got sick to my stomach when i saw the prices of 454 brass, plus it is hard to find. Starline 454 is backordered, while 45lc and 44Mag is widely available, at about 1/2 the price. I am now even considering just getting the 44Mag, and walking away from the 454 altogether."

:banghead:

.45 Colt brass will do ANYTHING you want to do in a SRH, provided the chambers are cut tight.

Yes, Freedom Arms probably gets a royalty paid for every piece of .454 brass sold, inflating the price, and making ammo makers reluctant to invest in such an enterprise when they can produce .45 Colt brass for the same price and keep all the profit themselves.

I would consider saving up a bit of money and shopping for any of the following:

Freedom Arms 83 in .454. Can be found for 1000 dollars or less, and are far better then ANY ruger.

www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Firearms.asp
BFR 45 Colt/.410
BFR .454

Better made then Rugers, and worth the money.

When I buy another .45, it's going to be the BFR in .454, and I will use .45 Colt brass only. I know the BFR chambers are cut tighter, and they are using 17-4 now for cylinders. Hard to cut, but super strong.

On rare days you can get fantastic deals on the BFR revolvers that get them into the Ruger price range.

They also make a .44 magnum.

Your idea of going with the .44 Magnum has little merit. There are just too many bullets being made in .45 ACP/Colt and this variety and supply keeps the cost down. The .44 Special market is just too small compared to the .45 ACP market to provide cheap plinking bullets in the long run, like the .45 ACP does for the the .45 Colt.

If you decide to go .44 Magnum, the BFR would be first choice, but, the .44 Magnum from Ruger has the wonderful option of having the cylinder bored out to .45 Colt, and rebarreled, if you get a dog with oversized chambers.

 

[zxcvbob]

255 grain SWC or RNFP bullet + 12.2 grains of Herco is about 1300 fps from a 7.5" Blackhawk. That's a pretty hot load for a .45 Colt (don't shoot it in your Judge or prewar Colt or derringer!) but would be nothing for a .454 Casull gun. You should be able to use either size brass, but maybe bump it up to 13.0 in the longer Casull case.

 

[kludge]

A good downloaded .454 Casull recipe is with a 250gr XTP (the one for .45 Colt NOT the 240gr XTP/Mag) and Universal powder. Pretty much duplicates the factory Winchester Super X loading, a whole lot less recoil and PLENTY for deer.

Another is a 255gr or 265gr lead SWC and Trail Boss you will hit harder than most standard pressure .45 Colt loads. Again, a great load for deer.

Find recipes at data.hodgdon.com

 

[gamestalker]

There should be no issue of lacking neck tension with the 45 dies used for .454. But as with any big boy wheel gun cartridge, a good firm roll crimp is always necessary to prevent bullet jump under fire.

I also like not having to worry about a double or over charge of fast burning powder slipping by unnoticed. If I can get a double charge to fit in a case with ease, I won't use that powder, but that's just me and my approach to reloading.

GS

 

[CraigC]

Your idea of going with the .44 Magnum has little merit.

Oh hogwash! He wants a deer gun and you think he should spend twice as much on a used FA??? The .44 will do everything he needs it to and he won't have to worry about the chambers being cut properly. As usual, the .45 Cult is high on passion and low on logic.

 

[Prosser]

.45 Colt will do anything the .429" will, and do heavier bullets also wider.

Shouldn't it really be called the ".43 Magnum"?

No cheap and easy to get .45 ACP bullets for the .43 to be loaded with.


What's a .43 Magnum going for these days?

Price on the .454 SRH is pretty good. Besides if the chambers are off he can get it a new cylinder and barrel in .475 L or .500JRH.

I don't like the gambling 600-700 on a Ruger to have to work it when the FA and BFR are considerably better guns, and priced not THAT far from the guns he's considering.

Nothing wrong with a Ruger .43 Magnum, and except for plinking bullets,
it might well be a bit cheaper all the way down the line.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Hell if he got a used FA or a BFR he could just have a cylinder made and timed to the frame chambered for .45ACP. Cheap plinking bullets in readily available brass and loaded ammo by the bulk pack if he so desires.

That is what I plan to do with my FA when it goes in for an action job.

 

[CraigC]

.45 Colt will do anything the .429" will, and do heavier bullets also wider.

Yes, I've heard that regurgitated statement before.....once or twice. Another crock. At the top end, at standard pressures (32,000psi for the .45), the .44 will sling bullets with higher sectional densities at higher velocities. Examples, for equivalent sectional densities - 355gr .44 at 1250fps vs 395gr .45 at 1050fps. For equivalent bullet weights 355gr at 1250fps vs 360gr .45 at 1150fps.

No critter will ever tell the difference.

No cheap and easy to get .45 ACP bullets for the .43 to be loaded with.

When's the last time you actually shopped for .44 bullets??? The .44 has a plethora of bullets available and I'd love to hear where you're getting jacketed ACP bullets for less than cast .44 bullets. I've also never seen an ACP bullet with a cannelure for crimping.

I don't like the gambling 600-700 on a Ruger...

Open your eyes. Ruger has been operating in the black for every year since its inception. They operate on cash, have no debt and can't build guns fast enough. The fear of getting a "bad" .44 is completely unjustifiable.

Besides if the chambers are off he can get it a new cylinder and barrel in .475 L or .500JRH.

Yeah, because that's a cheap and easy solution. 'Some' folks obviously lack perspective.

 

[S.B.]

USSR
Member



.454 Casul for deer? A bit of overkill, don't you think? I hunt them 4 legged varmints with my .45LC S&W 25-5 with the following load: cast 265gr HP with 18.0gr of 2400 in a Starline case. If this load will shoot through a deer from stem to stern, what more do you need?

Don


Dead is dead, isn't it? 'ol Elmer never thought this.
Steve

 

[Prosser]

Last .45 bullets I bought are here:
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/co...tid/5/S_S_Hardcast_Bullets__packages_of_1000_
Same cost as the .44 magnum bullets, pretty much.

Who cares about sectional density? If a 260 grain bullet goes end to end on deer and hogs that's all you need.

He's also not buying a .45 Colt. The suggestion is to use .45 Colt BRASS, in a .454 Casull chambered gun. I just pointed out the .45 Colt loadings can equal the .44 magnum, in a .454 gun, with lower pressure. I'm discussing bullets with equal bullet weights, since sectional density is irrelevant, unless you are shooting cape buffalo.

So are you saying there is something in the 48 that a .45 Colt brass in a .454 gun can't be loaded to shoot through? Maybe a Peterbilt?

I've loaded a LOT of bullets in the .45 Colt, and with an adequate crimp, regardless of crimp grove or not, only the very top pressure loads had bullet creep.
Another strawman.

WHY would you load 355 grain or heavier bullets in a .44 magnum or .45 Colt?
The elephants break out of the zoo? I guess if you have a lot of 2000 pound
plus animals running around this might be a concern.

If that was REALLY the concern then a .44 Magnum or a .45 Colt are poor choices, since you can get a .480 or .475 Linebaugh in either a BFR or Ruger
for the same cost.

So you berat my position since all he wants is a deer gun, and then suggest the .44 magnum because it's better with 355 grain bullets?

We are done.

Kid, you can't loose either way. I just threw out a few options you might consider. I'd really ask your mentor, the guy who's going to let you use his reloading equipment what he thinks you should get, and what you should use for your area. If he's on board your life and situation will work out.
He'll be invested in what you buy, rather then listening to a bunch of advice from some old internet gun "experts".

I actually don't know why I'm even discussing this. I loved the .44 Special/Magnum. Something warm and fuzzy about 240 grain .430" bullets.
They are totally adequate for anything you'll shoot, and I enjoyed loading them. I carried a .44 Special CA bulldog, until I shot it loose using low end .44 magnum loads in it, in .44 special brass.

There are more guns, that are easier to conceal, in .44 Special then their used to be, and some are darn good.

I like the .45 bullets since I can use them in .45 Colt, .45 Super, .45 ACP, 460 Rowland, 454 Casull etc. That allows me to buy a certain type of bullet
and load it across the board.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Prosser,

On the 355+gr bullets in .45 Colt or. 454 I know there is no logical reason to load them for anything I am likely to ever hunt. On the other hand I am still curious what kind if performance I can get from one. I also enjoy shooting rocks with them even if they are pretty expensive plinking fodder.

I suppose if I were ever lucky enough to draw a bison tag in South Dakota a 360gr hard cast WFNGC over a stiff charge of H110 or IMR4227 might be just the ticket.

One other advantage of the .454 at least in South Dakota, is that it meets and exceeds the minimum energy requirements for elk hunting. Not sure if the .44 Magnum can get there, the regulation states that the firearm must utilize ammunition factory rated at a minimum of 1800lb-ft. Obviously this is intended to rule out small caliber centerfire rifles, but also ends up ruling out many centerfire pistols that are more than powerful enough. I am personally not a worshipper at the altar of kinetic energy but the law is what it is. Other states may vary.

 

[CraigC]

So you berate my position since all he wants is a deer gun, and then suggest the .44 magnum because it's better with 355 grain bullets?

You're the one that brought up heavy bullets:

.45 Colt will do anything the .429" will, and do heavier bullets

All I was doing was countering the .45 Cult nonsense.

WHY would you load 355 grain or heavier bullets in a .44 magnum or .45 Colt?

I don't know about you but I'm toting my ass to Africa before I'm 40.

 

[Prosser]

Then you better get a .45 Colt.
360 grain bullets, in a .454 revolver, at 1550 fps. 38" of cape buffalo was the average of 5 shots by Ross Seyfried. YMMV.


Over 1800 ft-lbs as well.
The weird part about that law is guns like the .475 Linebaugh with 420 grain bullets at 1350 fps, and the 430 grain 1350 fps .500JRH just miss 1800 ft-lbs.

When I said "heavier bullets" I was thinking bullets in the 360-395 grain range, literally. .43 Magnum won't do those.

Again: My position is if you need that weight bullet, get a bigger caliber.

Jack Huntington went to Africa a bit back and the hassle of getting his pistol into the countries was so bad he just took rifles. I know it can be done so tell me how you do it when you go.

I'm not a .45 Cultist, since what I really use is a 45/454 when I have one, and plan on getting another. Argument is the .45 Colt will do anything I need doing with a 260 grain bullet at 1200 fps. Likewise that would apply to the .43 Magnum as well.

I was pointing out that the .45 Colt case seems to like at least that bullet weight, and up until about 325 grains. The velocity results seems to favor the heavy bullets, unless you get a long barrel.

I find the .45 adequate for anything and with the big case the reduction in pressure is nice. However it does take a little more powder. I just found the .45 Colt with 260's very pleasant to shoot.

I also find it compelling that Ross Seyfried seems to have settled on the .45 Colt as his carry and hunting pistol, after using all the exotics.

I'm already invested in .45's so...

Really too bad no one ever made an automatic case that takes the .430"
bullets.

 

[CraigC]

....43 Magnum won't do those...

Like I said, the 355gr does just fine and its sectional density is equal to the 395gr .45 and it pushes it 200fps faster. The .45 really only comes into its own in the custom five-shots and FA's.

I'm already invested in .45's so...

We finally get to the real reason.

 

[Coal Dragger]

The 360gr and 395gr loading data for the .454 is dumbed down just like nearly all .454 load data and factory loads are a bit dumbed down to accommodate double action revolvers now chambered for it. Granted real full pressure loads are pretty unpleasant to shoot, even in a FA or other purpose built single action, but at least you can get the empty cartridges to extract reliably. Double actions especially the one with 6 chambers, seem to have trouble with this. Of course trying to punch all of them out at the same time has a lot to do with this.

As a side note you argue that the .454 only comes into it's own in specialized guns like the FA etc, but fail to note that the super heavy 355gr .44 Magnum load you keep touting is, as far as I can tell, not loaded by anyone and all the +P+ .44 Magnum loads are limited to only certain revolvers as well. So in effect they are just as specialized.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Oh not that it makes a big difference I just re-checked the SD game laws on suitable firearms for elk season, and I was off by 100ft-lbs. The regulation calls for a minimum of 1,700ft-lbs at the muzzle, and a caliber of .243 or greater. Soft points or expanding ammo only.

 

[Prosser]

CD:
Let's keep this on the facts. CraigC, like many gun folks, seems in love with his caliber. That's fine, and God Bless him. I see NO reason that in the real world the .44 isn't as good as the .45.

In fact, my first choice WAS the .44 Special, loading low end .44 magnum loads, with a 240 grain bullet. At the time, weren't enough guns. When I bought my .45 Colt/Linebaugh I did it because the .45 ACP offered cheap bullets that would work in both, and that I only stocked one size bullets.

I tried the .44 to begin with, but, at the time, couldn't find a .44 CCW that would stand up to constant shooting I did not find.

The bottom line is this:
"The .45 really only comes into its own in the custom five-shots and FA's. "

However, just as you accuse us of mantra from the old days, so is this.
SRH's, Alaskans, etc. have changed the game. However, they aren't easy to find, least not here. BFR has helped.

Bottom line is the .44 works at reasonable pressures. So does the .454.
Look at 4227 and H110, and take the minimum pressure loads. The difference between the min and max aren't much, and the extra recoil and pressure not worth the effort. Or are they, for accuracy???????

Bottom line is I see them as real close.

However, load the .45 Colt case to .44 magnum pressures and that opens the gap. What are you going to shoot that is going to know the difference?

If it's that close, or you want to use the .454 at max, be my guest. We have a guy around here with a bunch of cape buffalos with the .454. He likes the long range flat for Africa.

I do have a friend, thank God for him, that has taken more game, and just about everything on the planet, with a .44 magnum. He uses 185 grain LFN style bullets, at 1900 fps. On good days now, he can put a cylinder on a
playing card, at 100 yards.

I've never asked him why he picked the .44, but I think it's time I did. I know his answer already. It works.

Also, with the powderpuff recoil of 185's in a hunting gun, at 1900 fps, you can shoot a LOT of them, and still have normal arms, and no nerve damage.

That said, I got near the same ballistics with a .05 cent hard cast bullet, in the .45 Colt, with a full case of H110. Anyone want to try and quantify the difference between a 185 .44 at 1900 fps, and a 230 grain 45 at 1800 fps?

I PROMISE the only ones that can are dead.

I'd like to hear Ross Seyfrieds' and Bob Munden's opinion of the .45 Colt. There is another guy that shoots .45 pretty well, Jerry something...

Anyone want to argue with them?

CraigC:
Why no .430" automatic cartridge that is as popular as the .45 ACP>?

1700? That's great. the .500JRH has guys saying it kills like a .375 H&H rifle. That should do the trick. The guys are in Texas, and they have an exotic game ranch.. They get to see
2000 pound animals getting hammered, mainly bison.

For what it's worth:
Loading the 240 grain Hornady JHP in .44 ALWAYS GAVE me the warm and fuzzies. That big, long bullet, for me, is the bottom line for defense. Everyone that ever attacked me was the size of a BIG hog, and, if I had it to do again, the 240 grain JHP's WOULD WORK. I KNOW IT.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Recoil and pressure (which go hand in hand in my experience) are sometimes worth the trouble for certain applications, but not for everyday recreational shooting. That is one of the many reasons I reload my own, so I can tailor the ammo to what my intended use is.

You mention enjoying the 255-260gr .45 bullet in the 1200-1300fps range, and I have to agree with you. Quite powerful for most reasonable uses, and frankly I can shoot those all day with no discomfort. I find them to be pretty pleasant actually, and I find myself shooting more rounds loaded at that power level than any other loading. Albeit I do it in .454 brass, so I have to use a bit more powder to get there, but I already have plenty of .454 brass and prefer to keep it simple that way.

 

[Prosser]

CD: I have a history with Bob Baker. That said, genius skips a generation.

His dad, and Casull had an idea and they made it work.

The FA 83 in .454 is common, and therefore, the only one of the calibers that is really reasonably priced. I slowly save money, and when I see a FA in this area for a good price I buy it. You want a 500 dollar gun for 600 dollars, or a 2500 dollar gun for a 1000????

Quality is incredible, and, compared to a ruger, it's worth 8 times the price.
BFR's are more rare here then FA's, and priced higher. Should say something about the quality.

For perspective:
The .45 Colt at 260 grains and 950 fps was considered a war standard in 1900 to kill HORSES. We are talking about upping the velocity 25%, and energy way more.

I have 500 rounds of .500JRH at 430 grains, 950 fps, or more.
Lee Jurras says the 420 grain .475 L at 1050 fps, 16 grains of HS-6, IRRC is enough for ANYTHING, and recoils like a .45 Super.

I'm talking spots for folks that disagree. Bring yourself, or some animals that can handle that...

 

[Coal Dragger]

Out of curiosity where is "here" for you?

I have handled both the BFR and the Freedom Arms, and the BFR was tempting but overall the workmanship on the FA was, in my estimation, better so that is what I now own. I would not mind owning a BFR though, the one I was able to look at was a nice gun, and certainly far superior to a Ruger.

I have heard that Bob Baker is kind of a hard headed individual, but I have had no dealings with him. I have only called the factory once to order taller front sights, and they offered to put me on the phone with him to hash out what I needed.

You mention being able to pick up the FA's on the cheap, well relatively speaking at least. I notice that same phenomenon with a lot of big bore revolvers, they don't seem to hold their value as well as others. This might have a lot to do with people who buy them to show off to their buddies with at the range, or otherwise brag up. Then they find out that their previous experience shooting a 9mm or .40S&W is woefully inadequate for the bucking, stinging, sharp recoiling hand-cannon they just bought that is plotting ways to smack them in the face every time they jerk the trigger. Most of these guys don't reload so they can't tailor ammo for their actual needs, and they also can't afford to feed the beast enough to train with it and hit anything. So the gun ends up collecting dust until one day the nimrod comes to the realization that the hand-cannon is worthless to him, and he sells it off for cheap.

Then you step in.

 

[USSR]

Back to the OP question:

Question is about ammo:

I had planned to use mostly hand loaded hot 45LC for deer hunting, and most applications, and only us 454 when power was needed, or wanted for "fun".

Some have suggested using 454 brass exclusively. This would mean "downloading" it for lighter, lower recoil rounds, as I do not want or need the full force and abuse of the 454 power all the time.

This would avoid the issue of the "crud ring" that causes 454 brass to stick when fired after 45LC. But could it cause reduced accuracy?

Pros/Cons???

Don

 

[CraigC]

...but fail to note that the super heavy 355gr .44 Magnum load you keep touting is, as far as I can tell, not loaded by anyone and all the +P+ .44 Magnum loads are limited to only certain revolvers as well. So in effect they are just as specialized.

In near about every post I've made about those loads I've also stipulated that they are at standard pressures. They also fit very nicely into standard length Ruger .44 cylinders. Nothing "special" about it.

CraigC, like many gun folks, seems in love with his caliber.

It has less to do with my affinity for the .44's and much more to do with the crap that .45 fans tend to regurgitate from a 30yr old Linebaugh article. I'm sorry but all the "better performance, less pressure" and "the .45 is better with heavier bullets" that people keep repeating, including yourself, is complete nonsense. I have four .45Colts and I love them, I just don't drink the Kool Aid.

Why no .430" automatic cartridge that is as popular as the .45 ACP>?

Because the Army asked for a .45cal cartridge in 1873, vs the .44 rimfire that Colt offered in the Open Top. The Colt SAA .45 was born months thereafter. So when their shiny new .38 DA's did a terrible job of stopping folks, they went back to the .45 with the 1911 and the rest is history. However, whatever the hell .45ACP bullets have to do with this conversation I have no idea.

 

[Huntolive]

Hope you guys are having fun...

Well, I guess I learned something from that debate: mostly that people have strong opinions, and particular situations, different from my own.

Basic question is about ammo. I am getting the 454/45 SRHH asap.
I may in a year or 2 also get a 44mag SRH or similar.
Waaay down the line, if I find a great deal on an FA, I may pick one up, but doubt I will need one. For now, I doubt I can go wrong w/ the deals I have on either the 454/45 SRHH or the 44mag SRHH.

For NOW, for ammo, I will be getting about 500 rounds of cowboy 45LC included as part of the deal on the gun, and 40 rounds of 454 thrown in.

So, I think for now, instead of buying 454 brass, I will train with 45LC cowboy, and start reloading 45 brass up to 260 grns at 1200 fps.
I will have plenty of free 45 brass that way. I can mark boxes and cases as HOT to avoid putting in the Judge, and clean the chambers fairly before using 454.
As I go along, I will accumulate 454 brass, to start reloading that.

I can use the same bullets w/ 45LC as w/ 454, right? Does this sound like a sound plan? If so, with this plan in mind, what bullets/powders do you rec for 45LC medium hot loads, and where do I get the best deal on em?

 

[zxcvbob]

I can use the same bullets w/ 45LC as w/ 454, right?

Yes, except some .45 jacketed bullets are made for the Casull and .460 S&W and don't expand any anything you can sanely achieve with .45 Colt.