an active "road rager" - how to deal with?

[Kleanbore]

Posted by rondog: It surprises me how many of you state you wouldn't draw your weapon until absolutely necessary, or to that effect. Myself, as soon as I realize there's a threat or even a possibility, my 1911 gets laid in my lap. It's not staying in the holster, or in the door, or the glovebox, or console.....it's right in my lap under my right hand, on top of my thigh. Cocked and locked.

I do not have a problem with that. "Or even a possibility" may be stretching it a little....

The discussion of when to draw had to do with the presentation of a weapon by someone who had exited the vehicle, or the presentation of a weapon by someone inside the car. Doing so without lawful justification could heve serious legal and tactical consequences.

If someone starts smashing your window with a tire iron, that's NOT the time to start fishing your pistol out to defend yourself. Have it ready.

Good thinking.

 

[Akita1]

rondog - same in here in FL.

Can't help but think that this logical, reasoned advice offered by many (especially Kleanbore in his usual thoughtful manner) is convenient.

I have been in such an incident (boxed in road rage) with two children in the back seat and will admit that the .45 came out of its CC holster as soon as he got out of his car and started yelling. Candidly, I was VERY scared as there were no escape options - I am not a big guy and this dude had me by 75 lbs easily and just had that look like he could handle himself.

My window was cracked about 1/2 inch so the threats were clearly audible as his was face spewing/spitting 5" from the glass, my kids were already crying, people were honking their horns and yelling at him…you get the idea - a TON of noise and threats with a responsibility to protect children…zero thoughts of bravado or legal implications.

The barrel was pinned against the door and there was a 230 grain XST .45 in the chamber with 10 more in the magazine. My finger was already on the trigger and I had long since decided that my and my children's lives were being threatened based upon both his words and his demeanor. Dialing 911 wasn't even an option - happened way too fast.

Again, I was VERY scared and we tend to make irrational decisions in such states. Thank God he stopped beating on the door and window - he must have been a father because when he turned his head and finally noticed the kids crying in the back seat he backed off with the "next time" crap.

The most chilling part? My 6-year old daughter saw me put the .45 back in its holster when the threat was gone and sobbed "you should have shot him Daddy, he was a "Bad Guy" (a defined term in our house). Sobering words from the mouths of babes, right?

 

[egg250]

Tuj, from how you describe the situation, I think you handled it perfectly. If you had been armed and prevented from leaving, had he begun bashing your vehicle to get at you would be the time to draw and defend yourself.

Yes there are always details that can't really be captured but that's the gist of it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Akita 1: Candidly, I was VERY scared as there were no escape options ...my kids were already crying, people were honking their horns and yelling at him…you get the idea - a TON of noise and threats with a responsibility to protect children…zero thoughts of bravado or legal implications.

Glad it ended up OK.

That brings to mind these words from our member JohnKSa in another thread:

I find that many people want to know when it's legal to use their gun in self-defense. That's precisely the opposite of how one should think about deadly force.

On many occasions I have tried to explain that if you're in the middle of the situation and you find that you are thinking about the legality of using deadly force, then things almost certainly aren't nearly bad enough for you to actually use your firearm. When you really need to use your firearm, you likely won't be thinking about anything else other than surviving or helping someone else survive.

Knowing the law helps you avoid getting into situations that could be legally problematic and it helps you avoid saying or doing something stupid before or after a self-defense encounter.

One HOPES that when one is FORCED to use a firearm in self-defense that the deadly force laws in the applicable region will exonerate him. That is what they are there for; they aren't there to provide people with a primer to decide when they can unload on someone without going to jail.

 

[rondog]

have been in such an incident (boxed in road rage) with two children in the back seat and will admit that the .45 came out of its CC holster as soon as he got out of his car and started yelling. Candidly, I was VERY scared as there were no escape options - I am not a big guy and this dude had me by 75 lbs easily and just had that look like he could handle himself.

My window was cracked about 1/2 inch so the threats were clearly audible as his was face spewing/spitting 5" from the glass, my kids were already crying, people were honking their horns and yelling at him…you get the idea - a TON of noise and threats with a responsibility to protect children…zero thoughts of bravado or legal implications.

The barrel was pinned against the door and there was a 230 grain XST .45 in the chamber with 10 more in the magazine. My finger was already on the trigger and I had long since decided that my and my children's lives were being threatened based upon both his words and his demeanor. Dialing 911 wasn't even an option - happened way too fast.

Again, I was VERY scared and we tend to make irrational decisions in such states. Thank God he stopped beating on the door and window - he must have been a father because when he turned his head and finally noticed the kids crying in the back seat he backed off with the "next time" crap.

The most chilling part? My 6-year old daughter saw me put the .45 back in its holster when the threat was gone and sobbed "you should have shot him Daddy, he was a "Bad Guy" (a defined term in our house). Sobering words from the mouths of babes, right?

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm wrong....but if that were me in your shoes, the gorilla at the door WOULD have seen Mr. Loudmouth staring at his face on my side of the window. I would have considered that enough of a threat to present that "hey, I have the means to defend myself here. You sure you want to continue?"

 

[Akita1]

Much thanks Kleanbore directing us to that post. The laws in FL are favorable to victims vs. perps & made sure I understood them when I started CC.

Still amazed that I was able to talk the guy down (and as noted he saw the kids & backed off) because I was fully expecting to tell the kids to cover their ears. Scared the hell out of me and I still think about it a lot. Always looking around while in traffic to see who's around me. The funny part is he got jacked up over someone next to me honking to merge and he thought it was me honking for him to move.

 

[Akita1]

rondog - agreed in hindsight. I am neither LEO nor military so it was my first experience with potentially shooting another human being. Even though I've been deer hunting for 20 years, my heart still pounds every time I look through the scope at a nice buck.

Also, I am kind of funny about waving guns at people. Always believed that if someone sees the gun the next thing they should see is a muzzle flash. Guess I'm a little old fashioned that way.

I knew the XST would zip right through the door anyway - the risk was more that it would go through him (despite the great expansion characteristics) and into the car behind him. Still think about what my daughter said that day - she agrees with you. She just read your post over my shoulder and she said "See, I told you." That was 3 years ago and it's still etched in her mind too.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Akita 1: I have been in such an incident (boxed in road rage) with two children in the back seat and will admit that the .45 came out of its CC holster as soon as he got out of his car and started yelling. Candidly, I was VERY scared as there were no escape options - I am not a big guy and this dude had me by 75 lbs easily and just had that look like he could handle himself....My window was cracked about 1/2 inch so the threats were clearly audible as his was face spewing/spitting 5" from the glass, my kids were already crying, ....

Having the .45 in hand and ready was certainly appropriate, but everyone must understand that verbal threats alone do not justify the use of deadly force, or in all but perhaps a couple of jurisdictions, the actual presentation of a weapon.

If the person making those threats is armed and also threatening with a deadly weapon, the picture changes, but an unarmed person outside a locked, closed automobile will almost certainly not be seen as posing an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury by investigators or by triers of fact.

Should he somehow make an actual, credible attempt to enter the auto, perhaps by breaching the window, the picture changes again in many jurisdictions.

 

[Akita1]

Having the .45 in hand and ready was certainly appropriate, but everyone must understand that verbal threats alone do not justify the use of deadly force, or in all but perhaps a couple of jurisdictions, the actual presentation of a weapon.

If the person making those threats is armed and also threatening with a deadly weapon, the picture changes, but an unarmed person outside a locked, closed automobile will almost certainly not be seen as posing an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury by investigators or by triers of fact.

Should he somehow make an actual, credible attempt to enter the auto, perhaps by breaching the window, the picture changes again in many jurisdictions.

Roger that

 

[Garmangabis]

I think the primary weapon in this case is your car, if you fear for your life or that of your passengers, consider what you can do to pin the guy between your car and his if he crosses behind, even if you are driving a Prius you can put a hitch in his step without facing more than an auto accident charge.

 

[Averageman]

Your brain and your car are far better weapons for getting out of this situation than your pistol at this point.
Dont let yourself get boxed in.
Be aware of all of your routes out, even less than legal/conventional driving is better than being killed.
If you are being threaten by someone outside your vehicle, unless they are armed and at your window they are at a distinct disadvantage over you in your vehicle.
Drawing my pistol would be my last resort, I would rather explain to an Officer why the Man banging on my car with a tire iron is now a smear on my hood, than why I felt I was justified shooting through the car 5 times to disable my attacker.

 

[psyopspec]

I am neither LEO nor military so it was my first experience with potentially shooting another human being. Even though I've been deer hunting for 20 years, my heart still pounds every time I look through the scope at a nice buck.

Despite being prior military with multiple tours, I was still shocked when the incident I was involved in went from the guy driving like a jerk, to verbally threatening and wielding a tire iron. I still had the shakes afterward coming off the adrenaline. I was still elated that the situation didn't end in having to shoot someone out of self defense. Yours was a perfectly human reaction; you handled it right and got a good outcome. Can't ask for much more than that.

 

[Prophet]

but I always try to leave myself 15 feet or so to the car in front of me to at least have a little instantaneous mobility if I have to have it.

.

This. It always kills me how people will pull right up on my tail when I'm stopped at a stop sign or a red light. I always leave enough room between myself and the vehicle in front of me so that I am not boxed into any situation that may occur (ie, have to get out of the way of a vehicle headed in my direction, etc. Not saying it would have helped in the OP's situation but it certainly could in another.

It would most probably also disable your car by disconnecting the power to the fuel pump.

Yup. Inertia switch. I make it a point to locate exactly where that little bugger is every time I purchase a vehicle. If you know where it is you can always turn it back on, but sometimes you have to exit the vehicle to position yourself to do so.

 

[rio nueces]

Happened to me. I saw it coming and at the light left room in front and luckily had a gas station driveway to my right.
I did have a Charter .38 in my hand.
When the guy got out of his car in traffic with steering wheel lock bar in his hands and approached me I just drove away slowly while others honked and yelled at him.
If I was unable to drive away I think it would have gone worse for him than me.
In Houston, Hillcroft at Braeswood.

 

[Akita1]

Despite being prior military with multiple tours, I was still shocked when the incident I was involved in went from the guy driving like a jerk, to verbally threatening and wielding a tire iron. I still had the shakes afterward coming off the adrenaline. I was still elated that the situation didn't end in having to shoot someone out of self defense. Yours was a perfectly human reaction; you handled it right and got a good outcome. Can't ask for much more than that.

10-4; thanks for the insight.

 

[Akita1]

Happened to me. I saw it coming and at the light left room in front and luckily had a gas station driveway to my right.
I did have a Charter .38 in my hand.
When the guy got out of his car in traffic with steering wheel lock bar in his hands and approached me I just drove away slowly while others honked and yelled at him.
If I was unable to drive away I think it would have gone worse for him than me.
In Houston, Hillcroft at Braeswood.

Guess another lesson from this is never drive in the middle or left lanes on I-4 in traffic!

 

[Losov]

OP: No improvement needed. You handled it exactly right.

 

[Russ Jackson]

How far back from the car in front of you are you stopping?

 

[Akita1]

How far back from the car in front of you are you stopping?

Is this question is for Prophet or me?

If me, about 5 feet, give or take a few inches. Enough to hard turn out of a lane because I hate traffic and tend to change lanes, but I-4 is a parking lot at least 3x/day and getting boxed in is common if you're not driving in the right lane 100% of the time.

Maybe I need to be driving my camp truck around more instead of the sedan - just plow people out of the way! (jk of course)

 

[Kleanbore]

Since we have exceeded three pages and have veered off into discussion of driving techniques, it's time to close tis one.