Right, as you reduce the overall area that the bullet can hit, the probability difference goes up. When you do that you're constraining the bullets to hit near the "heart" all the time, and that naturally increases the probability of near misses--the scenario that highlights the difference between the two rounds.
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
- Thread starter JohnBiltz
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TrueTexan
Member
Interesting following this thread. Having been and EMT on a city ambulance and later a RN in an inner city ER for 14 years, I have seen many GSW some survived that should not have and didn't that should have. The ones that were stopped immediately were normaly hits to the CNS, brain spinal cord at neck. I have seen a man shot witha small caliber pistol to back of head short range no more than 6 inches. Bullet went through the brain stem in to upper brain. Patient should have died instantly, he walked out of the hospital without any deficit two weeks later.
Suggest you look at the video and thread here
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=671916&highlight=Bullet+penetration+video
I like the idea we can discuss various view points without the negativity some other forums have.
BTW I carry a 45 acp
Suggest you look at the video and thread here
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=671916&highlight=Bullet+penetration+video
I like the idea we can discuss various view points without the negativity some other forums have.
BTW I carry a 45 acp
In a study of 6000 actual gunfights in NYC it was determined that the vast majority took place at conversational distances...1-3 yrds and happened so quickly that sights were not used in most of them. The hit rate in lethal encounters was about 20% by the police!!!
Real life vs theory is a rude awakening!
Real life vs theory is a rude awakening!
TrueTexan
Member
I was taught in my CHL class 3,3,3. SD shooting normaly occur withiin 3 feet 3 shots fired and all within 3 seconds.
Gunfights in NYC aren't all that relevant to the rest of the nation, given NYC's long standing anti-gun culture. There are no sport shooters there. There are very few people who get to practice with firearms ever. Sights are a mystery to many of the people there who may get into a gunfight.
And 20% seems pretty optimistic for the NYPD.
The stat holds for the rest of the country as well. It doesn't matter what distance you practice at....when the crap hits the fan, it will be on top of you the majority of the time. You cannot shoot people at 25 yards and expect to convince a jury you were in fear of an imminent threat unless the assailant was pointing a rifle at you! Many police officers are freaked out by their first shootings for days because it happens so fast. I learned that from an FBI shooting instructor by the way!
Elm Creek Smith
Member
If the assailant is carrying a handgun, shotgun, or rifle at me at that distance, I'm going to shoot him/her just as many times as I can as fast as I can. On the off chance that someone tries to shoot me with a rifle before I can get to mine, I also practice at 100 yards with my handguns (including my snubbies). And, yes, I think I can convince a jury that I was in fear of an imminent threat.
ECS
Elm Creek Smith
Member
I have yet to see a 9mm 124 grain +P out of a 5 inch barrel come close to 1450 fps. (Remington 125 grain SJHP .357 Magnum chronographed from my issue S&W Model 686-6.) 9mm 124 gr +P+ might get within 150 fps but no better, and it ain't exactly SAAMI friendly.
This is important if you intend to miss a lot.
ECS
More than stopping power counts
I think to much emphasis is placed on velocity, caliber or bullet weight.
RECOIL should also be taken into account. My home defense guns are usually 9m.m. because recoil, even with +P loads is moderate. For me, the combination of large magazine capacity, reasonable recoil and grip size are the deciding factors.
My wife uses a 9m.m. SIG 225 because it is just large enough to get a good grip on with reasonable recoil using COR BON Powerball ammo, but not so heavy, that it is hard for her to hold.
My duty gun is a .40S&W, but it is not my choice, even though the recoil is not that bad.
I tried the really small guns and came away unimpressed. Off duty I usually carry a SIG 232 in .380ACP or .32ACP BERETTA Tomcat. In the summer, they are much easier to conceal than a BERETTA 92Compact or WALTHER P-99.
Even my SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 Sub Compact is hard to conceal in a Florida summer.
On the other hand, I had a KAHR 9CW and sold it as the recoil was to severe. Same for a first generation COLT Cobra. The COLT was actually painful, even with wadcutters.
I recently shot a .32ACP NAA Guardian and it was work because of the recoil. Remember, this is from a .32ACP!
Recoil can have an effect on your accuracy and the recovery time between shots, so I will always choose the round that gives me the best balance of control and power.
For different individuals, this will vary a lot. More in fact that the stopping power argument.
Jim
I think to much emphasis is placed on velocity, caliber or bullet weight.
RECOIL should also be taken into account. My home defense guns are usually 9m.m. because recoil, even with +P loads is moderate. For me, the combination of large magazine capacity, reasonable recoil and grip size are the deciding factors.
My wife uses a 9m.m. SIG 225 because it is just large enough to get a good grip on with reasonable recoil using COR BON Powerball ammo, but not so heavy, that it is hard for her to hold.
My duty gun is a .40S&W, but it is not my choice, even though the recoil is not that bad.
I tried the really small guns and came away unimpressed. Off duty I usually carry a SIG 232 in .380ACP or .32ACP BERETTA Tomcat. In the summer, they are much easier to conceal than a BERETTA 92Compact or WALTHER P-99.
Even my SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 Sub Compact is hard to conceal in a Florida summer.
On the other hand, I had a KAHR 9CW and sold it as the recoil was to severe. Same for a first generation COLT Cobra. The COLT was actually painful, even with wadcutters.
I recently shot a .32ACP NAA Guardian and it was work because of the recoil. Remember, this is from a .32ACP!
Recoil can have an effect on your accuracy and the recovery time between shots, so I will always choose the round that gives me the best balance of control and power.
For different individuals, this will vary a lot. More in fact that the stopping power argument.
Jim
Terminal effect is ONE parameter of many that should be considered when choosing a self-defense handgun. Shootability (including recoil) is another, capacity a third, practice costs, availability of accessories, reliability, etc.
The key is finding a balance among all the important parameters that works for you.
fastest45ever
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I enjoyed the thread you started with the information on misses in most situations being a very high percentage. The multiple attacker trend is also very important. Excellent work.
That thread should be standard reading when this sort of topic is brought up.
That thread should be standard reading when this sort of topic is brought up.
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