Animals that are the cause of emotional strife when hunted.

[H&Hhunter]

The African guides WILL hunt out the big cats. They will do anything for $1. I'm all about some hunting, but I think we should leave the big cats alone for a while, and keep an eye on their counts in years to come .

Mopar,

In areas where sport hunting of big cats (lions) has recently been outlawed. The lions killed for depredation purposes quickly out numbers the trophy hunting kills. Botswana being a prime example.

Now when you make a statement like the "The African guides" who exactly are you talking about? If you are referring to PH's they are strictly limited in the number of cats they can kill by the various game departments of the various countries they are hunting in. They don't just go out and shoot lions willy nilly and haven't for at least 50 years.

Furthermore the only big cats with population concern that is hunted is the lion and is under strict control at the moment a wild lion hunt today is becoming very expensive and very hard to find due to conservation efforts. Leopard populations are extremely healthy in all areas that allow hunting of them. There is only one country that allows the hunting of cheetahs on an extremely limited basis and that is Namibia. So exactly which big cats are you referring to?

I am curious where you are getting your myopic and politically charged "information" from when you make a statement like "The African Guides will hunt out the big cats". The very gall of that statement is emotionally charged incorrect and very suspiciously animal rights org driven. Is that where you read it in animal rights literature ? Because in reality it's the PH's and their various organizations that are now and have been in the past the folks who have recommended and implemented most of the truly effect conservation and game management policies that are so effective in Africa today.

There has not been one single incidence of an animal rights org implementing one single effective policy that has contributed to the salvation and population growth of any animals world wide and in Africa in particular. Please lets not let the facts get in the way of our opinions however.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Myopic, emotionally, politically charged refers to the side of the position one disagrees with.



A pro hunter will get his facts from sources, an anti hunter will get his facts from sources, and both will think their facts are the gospel.

 

[H&Hhunter]

ZJ

Really? You are going to argue that the PETA HSUS (known, established and watched terrorist groups) are using any facts or proven conservation methods to try and ram their radical agendas down our collective throats?

Hey guys if you are an animals rights person just come out and say it. You already know where I stand. But slinking in the dark and taking the occasional pot shot is pretty low brow. If you really believe in something stand up and be heard.

I know it frustrating when I keep introducing facts and actual been there done that knowledge into these threads BUT. Here are a few things that should be known.

In Africa a "guide" is a person who takes out non hunting tourists in mini vans to view animals.

A Professional Hunter (PH) is what we would refer to as a hunting guide in the US.

Professional hunters do set prices on trophy fee's nor do they set quota on a particular species. So the comment about African "guides" shooting out big cats for profit is blatantly false to the point of ludicrous.

That's like saying that Wyoming hunting guides are shooting elk into extinction. They guide hunters to legally take elk within the limits of the law. JUST EXACTLY like African PH's do in Africa. If there are people hunting outside of those parameters they are poaching and I guarantee you they are not licensed PH's or won't be for long.

To generalize two things here "African" and "Big Cats" is naive at best and down right ignorant at worst. What African country are we speaking of and what species of big cat are we referring to?

Once again to put it in perspective. In North America guides are overshooting deer. Kind of vague wouldn't you say. As in where in in North America? What country, what state, what county, what kind of deer? When you peel off the layers we might be speaking of a single instance on a single ranch in one state. But that is a whole heck of a lot different than "guides" in America are wiping out the deer now isn't it?

 

[ZeroJunk]

I wasn't saying you were wrong H&H, just that you jump to name calling pretty quick. I'm sure the gentleman didn't pull the idea out of the air and has gotten that idea from some source. I would also bet that that source could come up with an example or two to fit the bill. To say that no PH in all of Africa has ever killed a cat in a questinable manner would be ridiculous.

If you feel that the hunting industry in Africa is overwhelmingly above board, wanton killing of cats is not occurring, and he has been mislead you may be right.

But, if you think you aren't influenced by your own prejudices as a pro-hunter same as an anti-hunter is influenced by his you are, well I guess you are normal.

 

[Art Eatman]

The deal, ZJ, is that you are responsible for establishing the credibility of your source before you post allegations from that source. Saves hassles over accuracy. That said, there's nothing wrong with, "I read where thus and such said this and that." That's asking for opinions about the credibility of the statements.

I think it's fair to say that H&H has proven his specific knowledge of hunting in various parts of Africa. Too many photos, too many posts over a bunch of years.

I think I have a reasonably good track record of accuracy about the hunting I've done, and it should be obvious from my posting history that I do not get dogmatic in areas where I lack a significant amount of experience.

Quite a few other folks here who are quite similar.

Few among us who have done the BTDT thing give a rat's patoot about the maunderings of anybody allied with PETA or HSUS--or any other such oxygen thieves. Zero credibility.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Art, I thought your response to Mopar was great. Wasn't snotty and didn't belittle the guy.

There are a few people on these forums who have hunted more, killed more, and spent more doing it than myself, but it's very few.

Maybe one of them can tell me what is to be gained by getting indignant with a hunter who believes something that he disagrees with.

 

[mopar92]

Well, for a fact, not fiction, a very good friend and customer go hunt big game every year I'm Africa. The last local guy he had was new to him. His regular guide was not able to do the hunt with him. The guide he normally has is a reputable and solid guy. The last 2 years the group has had "offers" to exceed the limit and they can "fix" it if they need to. You tell me?

 

[Art Eatman]

One event does not mean widespread misbehavior. I hear of that sort of crookedness, and just figure that it's another instance of somebody's billfold getting a bit skinny.

"Anecdotes are not data." (Unless they are very numerous and consistent over decades.)

 

[jahwarrior]

back to the OP:

i take issue with killing elephants, but not for any superor moral reason, i just like elephants, and couldn't bring myself to kill one except out of need.

when it comes down to it, i'm not much in support of sport hunting, period. there's no need for it; my local grocery store has all the meat i need. i support culling wild herds for population control, so if a sport can be made of it, fine.

what i'm completely opposed to is canned "hunting", which isn't hunting, or sporting, in the least. i don't care if it were an animal like a pigeon or a squirrel, it's cowardly, lazy, and disgusting. the videos i've seen disgust me, and i can't imagine how shooting an animal while it was in an enclosure would bring anyone but a sadist pleasure.

i also am against whaling, which is marine hunting, to me. again, i just have a deep affection for cetecean life.

 

[quatin]

when it comes down to it, i'm not much in support of sport hunting, period. there's no need for it; my local grocery store has all the meat i need. i support culling wild herds for population control, so if a sport can be made of it, fine.

what i'm completely opposed to is canned "hunting", which isn't hunting, or sporting, in the least. i don't care if it were an animal like a pigeon or a squirrel, it's cowardly, lazy, and disgusting. the videos i've seen disgust me, and i can't imagine how shooting an animal while it was in an enclosure would bring anyone but a sadist pleasure.

Canned hunts is meat you would otherwise get from the grocery store, but you kill the animal yourself. Why the disgust? It's technically hunting, but not very sporting. However, it beats buying meat from the grocery store that's caged and electrocuted.

Also, not to open a new can of worms,but I'm biased against elephants, because they're one of the few animals that are self-aware. African elephants are kind of iffy, but the Asian elephants definitely are. Giraffes, zebras and wolves I don't quite care about. I'm also in support of whaling, but not dolphins for the same reason.

 

[308win]

I can't believe nobody has mentioned big cats.

I had lion in a restaurant in Chicago many years ago and it was good.

 

[KodiakBeer]

If I may just offer one more tidbit on African hunting? I have no dog in this fight since I've never hunted Africa, but there is one indisputable fact on the issue which should not be ignored.
Forty years ago (or thereabouts) a number of countries in Africa banned hunting while others continued. Those countries which banned hunting saw a steady drop in game numbers, while those countries which continued hunting saw no drop or saw increases.

That may sound bizarre, but the simple facts of the matter are that hunting gives animals economic value.

In Kenya (a non-hunting country), an elephant is just a big thing that destroys your fields, a lion something that eats your cattle. The locals kill wildlife any way they can get away with it, from a motive of pure self preservation. They'll use poison, snares or whatever they can devise.

In Zimbabwe, an elephant might be worth ten thousand dollars paid directly to the local village, if shot legally by a hunter. In fact every animal killed within their zone brings direct payment. This is due to something called Communal Areas Management Programme for Indigenous Resources (CAMPFIRE). This program gives a direct economic incentive for rural Africans to preserve and protect wildlife.

An elephant in Zimbabwe is worth a cool ten thousand to the local village. An elephant in Kenya is worth a couple hundred bucks for it's tusks. This is why wildlife in Kenya is confined to a few heavily guarded parks, while wildlife populations in Zimbabwe are healthy across the country.

The same is true across Africa. Those countries that allow hunting have stable animal populations because hunting provides an economic incentive to protect wildlife. Those countries that have banned it have endangered populations because another grain field provides more incentive than protecting the land for wildlife habitat.

 

[popper]

Bambi, Thumper and Rocky. Everything else is a threat to her.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Well, for a fact, not fiction, a very good friend and customer go hunt big game every year I'm Africa. The last local guy he had was new to him. His regular guide was not able to do the hunt with him. The guide he normally has is a reputable and solid guy. The last 2 years the group has had "offers" to exceed the limit and they can "fix" it if they need to. You tell me?

mopar,

I'll ask you this simple question one more time. What African country did this take place in?

The reason I ask. Is that in South Africa much hunting takes place on game farms that don't have set quotas. The land owner, owns the game, therefore they can and do let you overshoot your "quota" for an extra fee. It's really nothing more than a marketing scam making the hunter think he's getting away with something when in reality the land owners are doing nothing more than making extra profit on surplus animals that they need to sell.

Most lion "hunting" in the country of South Africa is not of wild lions. I am not saying that you can't hunt a natural wild lion in South Africa but the majority of Lion hunting in that country is of pen raised and released lions. The Free State tends to be the area of the worst offenders of the ole "For a little palm grease we'll let you shoot another lion that somehow got onto the ranch property wink, wink" scam.

Which is an entirely different dynamic than the hunting of wild lions in countries like Zambia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania, Namibia, and until recently Botswana.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ZJ

Please indicate where I called mopar a "name". I can't find it in either of my posts above.

 

[H&Hhunter]

If I may just offer one more tidbit on African hunting? I have no dog in this fight since I've never hunted Africa, but there is one indisputable fact on the issue which should not be ignored.
Forty years ago (or thereabouts) a number of countries in Africa banned hunting while others continued. Those countries which banned hunting saw a steady drop in game numbers, while those countries which continued hunting saw no drop or saw increases.

That may sound bizarre, but the simple facts of the matter are that hunting gives animals economic value.

In Kenya (a non-hunting country), an elephant is just a big thing that destroys your fields, a lion something that eats your cattle. The locals kill wildlife any way they can get away with it, from a motive of pure self preservation. They'll use poison, snares or whatever they can devise.

In Zimbabwe, an elephant might be worth ten thousand dollars paid directly to the local village, if shot legally by a hunter. In fact every animal killed within their zone brings direct payment. This is due to something called Communal Areas Management Programme for Indigenous Resources (CAMPFIRE). This program gives a direct economic incentive for rural Africans to preserve and protect wildlife.

An elephant in Zimbabwe is worth a cool ten thousand to the local village. An elephant in Kenya is worth a couple hundred bucks for it's tusks. This is why wildlife in Kenya is confined to a few heavily guarded parks, while wildlife populations in Zimbabwe are healthy across the country.

The same is true across Africa. Those countries that allow hunting have stable animal populations because hunting provides an economic incentive to protect wildlife. Those countries that have banned it have endangered populations because another grain field provides more incentive than protecting the land for wildlife habitat.

Kodiak,

Right on the money, great post!

 

[Art Eatman]

5th Sticky from the top of the Hunting forum page...

 

[Joe Demko]

The deal, ZJ, is that you are responsible for establishing the credibility of your source before you post allegations from that source.

Please do correct me if I am wrong, but I do not recall H&Hhunter citing any sources in this thread before he stampeded directly to trying to link Mopar to "terrorists." Just because H&H is on the majority side of the argument here doesn't earn him a pass.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Can anybody here present an argument against the information I posted in my rebuttal to mopar's statement that "African guides WILL hunt out the big cats"?

When you make a firm statement like that I'd think that you'd have some facts besides I knew a guy who said.....

So far we can't seem to produce the name of the country the alleged hunt took place, the name of the outfitter, the name of the crooked guide, or have even established what species of animal the supposed hunters were offered to shoot over quota. Not one word as to what kind of big cat or if it even was a cat in question.

I haven't even brought up the issues with a CITES permit and the difficulty or impossibility of obtaining one AFTER you've killed a big cat making it very difficult and a federal offense to import into the USA. You see things are not as simple as they seem at a glance. The whole concept of shooting extra cats in a wild hunting area is so slim as to be darn near impossible. Wild big cats in particular are the most extremely tightly regulated species to hunt currently. It makes no sense for a PH to allow a hunter to shoot an extra one that he can't import for a nominal extra fee when he's got guys lined up five years in advance who are going to pay for a full 21 day safari just in order to have the opportunity to hunt one with no guarantee of success implied. The only way a guy could do it in theory would be to pay for another entire 21 day hunt plus associated fees. Not to mention that each country is only allotted so many CITES import permits per season and they are all booked up years in advance. So even if you did pay the 40 to 80K to hunt your second lion you'd be shoot out of luck trying to import it unless you'd made prior CITES arrangements.

If you know the first thing about hunting DG in Africa this whole thing is so wildly out of whack and false that it pretty much defies all logic and truth to even think about making a statement like that. The comments is so far fetched that it reminds of the infamous and highly defended 2500 Lb bull elk "kill" we had posted on here some years ago.

 

[Joe Demko]

Then I am sure you have something besides your own moral outrage to bring to the table.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Joe,

Why would say that I am "outraged"? There is no outrage here. What would you like referenced? You can very easily look up CITES regulations and lion hunting. If you'd like you can visit a more African hunting oriented site such as Accuratereloading.com and see how far you get with the above inaccurate statement since my word isn't good enough. And you can very easily try and book a multiple lion hunt outside of a high fenced game park in South Africa through one of several reputable booking agents. Make sure and mention you want to shoot over your quota on lions for a nominal fee.

My information is solid and common knowledge amongst African hunters please feel free to verify it.

 

[Joe Demko]

So, neither of you is willing to provide anything but "my post is my cite" assertions. Until somebody comes up with something more substantial, I'm placing you both in the uncited bin. Slight advantage right now to the side that didn't try to link the opposition to terrorists, but nothing commanding.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Joe,

So, neither of you is willing to provide anything but "my post is my cite" assertions. Until somebody comes up with something more substantial, I'm placing you both in the uncited bin.

What a bunch of carp....

I said you are welcome to look it up yourself but here goes... You are also welcome to look into my numerous posts from the past of actual African hunting..

Since we still don't know what kind of big cat we are talking about here that the guides are going to shoot into extinction I'll just assume we are talking about lions. For now. It's kind of tough to cite anything when the quote was so vague. So I'll just back up some of my statements.

I'm not sure what you need cited from me. Possibly that Lions are on the CITES list? Or that it is generally agreed that hunting is not the cause of lion population reduction in Africa?

http://www.huntingreport.com/worldupdate.cfm?articleid=423

A VICTORY FOR HUNTING -- LIONS TO REMAIN ON CITES APPENDIX TWO
BANGKOK (October 18, 2004) – In a victory for the hunting community and the main lion-hunting countries of Africa, CITES has rejected a proposal by Kenya that the African lion be moved from Appendix II to Appendix I, which would have imposed strict quotas on hunting.
The 13th meeting of the participants in the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species here rejected the proposal by Kenya, which was backed by many international anti-hunting organizations, on the grounds that while lion numbers may be decreasing, they are not endangered and a move to Appendix I would do nothing to reverse their decline.
This is not the end of the lion story, however. At its meeting in Johannesburg early this year, the CITES Animal Committee voted to include the African lion in its Review of Significant Trade. Kenya and other lion “range states” have agreed to provide trade data to the committee.
The Kenya proposal was opposed by every country where lions are hunted, as well as some (such as Switzerland) which have only a distant interest. In its submission to the CITES Secretariat opposing the proposed move, the Swiss pointed out that trophy hunting and international trade are no threat to the species. Threats that do exist – reduced prey numbers, disease, and diminished habitat – cannot be prevented by an Appendix I listing.

That lion hunting is getting very difficult to arrange or that it's extremely expensive?

http://www.backcountrytaxidermy.com/Africas-Lion.html

A recent CITES scare and a shortage of good Lion hunting areas has resulted in the price of fair chase hunts skyrocketing. Added to this, recent legislation in South Africa cracking down on the hunting of large captive bred predators has created more demand than there are Lion hunts.

Expect to pay anything from $40,000 upwards for a good Lion Hunting concession in any of the southern and central classic destinations. For the best, like some areas of Zambia, Botswana, and Tanzania, expect to pay from $75,000 upwards of $100,000.


That in the country of South Africa much of the lion hunting is canned?

http://planyoursafari.com/blog/canned-lion-vs-wild-lion-hunting-part-ii/

As a recap – “canned” lion hunting (defined as a “hunter” shooting a trophy lion from a captive bred source) is a big industry in South Africa.

Unfortunately, published numbers are only available until 2005. The CITES record keepers need a wakeup call maybe? Anyway, you will see that “canned” lion hunting trophy exports started in 1994, and have gained in popularity since. This is probably because “canned” lions are made available to the trophy hunter at a much reduced cost compared to the expense involved in embarking on a wild lion hunt. A “canned” lion, if you are a canny hunter, can probably be supplied for roughly $20,000 versus a wild lion costing at least three or four times that. Of course a female lion goes for a real bargain price, you are forbidden to shoot a wild one these days.


Here is but one example of what it's going to cost you to bust a cap into a wild lion. They have a quota of 6 for the year and get $2800 a DAY for a minimum of 21 days PER LION. I hope this is starting to make sense to you.

http://www.safaribwana.com/HUNT/lion08.htm

Would you like some facts on leopard hunting too?

 

[Joe Demko]

Okay, those are some good cites. If you want to roll your eyes and pms because I wanted them, well that's your drama and adds nothing to your case.

You are also welcome to look into my numerous posts from the past of actual African hunting

To me, you are some guy on the internet whose real name I don't even know. There are other guys on other boards, whose names I don't know either, who say they are Navy SEALS, psychic, porn stars, millionaires, and all sorts of cool things. I am absolutely not saying you are a liar and that you haven't hunted Africa. I am saying that people's personal history as anonymously posted to the internet is not as convincing to me as more conventional cites.

 

[ZeroJunk]

The question wasn't about the laws I don't think, but whether or not the laws were being obeyed. Africa has a bad reputation in that department, deserved or not, which is what got us to this point.