Annealing process improvements

[GBDP]

Hey, Just another question from my University project!
What features would you like to see in an annealer/ or have you come across that you have deemed useful?
- Automation and the ability to anneal variety in casings are currently on my list but are any others to consider?

What key performance metrics do customers use to evaluate the quality of an annealing process?

 

[JFrank]

I like to see smaller LR groups on a consistent basis.

 

[Varminterror]

Something unique to the AMP Annealer is the Aztec mode, during which it tests your brass to determine how it should be annealed. ALL other annealers on the market are effectively blind shots in the dark - at BEST they can be calibrated with tempilaq/tempistik, but the "control" parameter of all flame based annealers really doesn't offer any control at all, as it's just a rotation speed which effectively acts like a timer - so when pressure changes in the bottle, or the room around it, for example, when a gas canister is running low on the last 1/4 of its volume vs. near full on its first 1/4 volume, there's considerable variability... And that assumes the user has properly used temperature indicators to determine the cycle time at all (way too many folks still turning off the lights and waiting for the brass to glow).

So a unique feature, and frankly an appropriately necessary feature, is a means to calibrate the annealing cycle to the brass, rather than taking random shots in the dark...

Automated feeding is a huge thing for me. I don't even like orienting cases into the hopper, and I'm super glad to have the ability to just dump cases into a case collator to let my AMP Mate do the work while I'm spending my time on something more productive.

 

[dredd]

Something unique to the AMP Annealer is the Aztec mode, during which it tests your brass to determine how it should be annealed. ALL other annealers on the market are effectively blind shots in the dark - at BEST they can be calibrated with tempilaq/tempistik, but the "control" parameter of all flame based annealers really doesn't offer any control at all, as it's just a rotation speed which effectively acts like a timer - so when pressure changes in the bottle, or the room around it, for example, when a gas canister is running low on the last 1/4 of its volume vs. near full on its first 1/4 volume, there's considerable variability... And that assumes the user has properly used temperature indicators to determine the cycle time at all (way too many folks still turning off the lights and waiting for the brass to glow).

So a unique feature, and frankly an appropriately necessary feature, is a means to calibrate the annealing cycle to the brass, rather than taking random shots in the dark...

Automated feeding is a huge thing for me. I don't even like orienting cases into the hopper, and I'm super glad to have the ability to just dump cases into a case collator to let my AMP Mate do the work while I'm spending my time on something more productive.

 

[thump_rrr]

Something unique to the AMP Annealer is the Aztec mode, during which it tests your brass to determine how it should be annealed. ALL other annealers on the market are effectively blind shots in the dark - at BEST they can be calibrated with tempilaq/tempistik, but the "control" parameter of all flame based annealers really doesn't offer any control at all, as it's just a rotation speed which effectively acts like a timer - so when pressure changes in the bottle, or the room around it, for example, when a gas canister is running low on the last 1/4 of its volume vs. near full on its first 1/4 volume, there's considerable variability... And that assumes the user has properly used temperature indicators to determine the cycle time at all (way too many folks still turning off the lights and waiting for the brass to glow).

So a unique feature, and frankly an appropriately necessary feature, is a means to calibrate the annealing cycle to the brass, rather than taking random shots in the dark...

Automated feeding is a huge thing for me. I don't even like orienting cases into the hopper, and I'm super glad to have the ability to just dump cases into a case collator to let my AMP Mate do the work while I'm spending my time on something more productive.

I have a Goss EP-70G propane regulator with gauge on my annealer.
It maintains a constant pressure till the cylinder is virtually empty.
I also have a 10 turn potentiometer and volt meter for fine tuning and repeatability.

When I bought my first precision rifle I bought 200 pieces of Lapua brass.
Those 200 pieces of brass have 24 firings on them.
The brass was simply set aside when a new barrel was installed and another 200 pieces were purchased.
I actually used 30 of those pieces for my Berger 185gr Juggernaut test this past weekend.

I understand that flame annealing is not as precise as induction annealing but you cannot say that it doesn't work.
Not everyone is able or willing to spend $1,600 on an annealer.

 

[BBarn]

Ability to measure case temperature during or immediately after heating. Would be helpful for repeatability.

 

[Nature Boy]

What key performance metrics do customers use to evaluate the quality of an annealing process?

Generally it’s determined on the output side. Either longer case life and/or better accuracy down range through more consistent case neck tension (bullet hold).

However, measuring what’s actually happening to the brass during the annealing process is a bit of a black box. A lot of it is taken on faith based on tribal knowledge with a bit of science thrown in.

ETA: discussion on the subject invariably devolve into to two camps: 1. You’re over heating your brass or 2. You’re not heating it enough.

 

[BushMaster-15]

It's a crap shoot regardless of equipment used ,simply because it's NOT annealing . It's what metallurgist refer to as " Solution Annealing " and it's NOT even close to actual annealing . NO grain change NO grain growth at best restoration of ductility .

 

[dredd]

I have a Goss EP-70G propane regulator with gauge on my annealer.
It maintains a constant pressure till the cylinder is virtually empty.
I also have a 10 turn potentiometer and volt meter for fine tuning and repeatability.

When I bought my first precision rifle I bought 200 pieces of Lapua brass.
Those 200 pieces of brass have 24 firings on them.
The brass was simply set aside when a new barrel was installed and another 200 pieces were purchased.
I actually used 30 of those pieces for my Berger 185gr Juggernaut test this past weekend.

I understand that flame annealing is not as precise as induction annealing but you cannot say that it doesn't work.
Not everyone is able or willing to spend $1,600 on an annealer.

This is what is missed by a lot of folks.
I hope people find this helpful.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

ETA: discussion on the subject invariably devolve into to two camps: 1. You’re over heating your brass or 2. You’re not heating it enough.

I’m in the 3rd camp: More popcorn!

 

[Varminterror]

I have a Goss EP-70G propane regulator with gauge on my annealer.
It maintains a constant pressure till the cylinder is virtually empty.
I also have a 10 turn potentiometer and volt meter for fine tuning and repeatability.

Few do. At least you recognized the inherent problems and implemented tools to mitigate them. Same stuff we all come to when we're flame annealing long enough and with sufficient focus to identify the opportunities for process improvement - I annealed like a caveman for over 15yrs before I got into induction annealing. No sense in getting personal about any of it - the fact remains, the overwhelming majority of annealers have absolutely no control over their process, so when this particular OP asks for "what features would you like to see in annealers?" and "what key performance metrics do customers use to evaluate quality of process?" I was honest in offering my experienced opinion. I'll stand by it - More annealers should have means for operational calibration and more should have integral controls to improve consistency.

 

[Pottimus]

I love learning about the passion of annealing, It's like THR napalm...

 

[hoardingthemanual]

Your post is exactly why I saved to buy the amp annealer today.

 

[Varminterror]

Generally it’s determined on the output side. Either longer case life and/or better accuracy down range through more consistent case neck tension (bullet hold).

However, measuring what’s actually happening to the brass during the annealing process is a bit of a black box.

Using these statements from @Nature Boy to explicate my own frustration, which seems particularly apt for this specific engineering/design project the OP is pursuing:

In process design, especially in continuous improvement, we have two types of “measures” of process performance which we can identify as “key performance indicators.” These are inherently linked to what we also call “QA/QC” - Quality Assurance and Quality Control - which are bifurcated for a reason: Quality Assurance includes process measures which “assure” we will get the quality outcome we desire, while Quality Control includes measures which “control” the quality of product we let out the door. This is the difference between “Lead Measures,” and “Lag Measures.” Lead measures are things we measure to know, up front and in process, we are “making things the right way”. Lag measures are things we measure on the back end to determine if it was “made right”.

In the instance of annealing, we have multiple indirect Lag Measures - sizing force reduction and consistency, seating force reduction and consistency, brass hardness, velocity consistency, group size, brass neck/shoulder life, etc, but we have exceptionally few Lead Measures. In most instances, the only LEAD measure shooters measure is EXPOSURE TIME, which they may have calibrated based on bad advice, but certainly on inexact measurements (brass color change or glow, flame color change, tempilaq, etc). Few others (myself included when I was flame annealing) employ gas regulators to improve (indirectly measured) flame temperature control as well, but it’s exceptionally rare gear in this game. “Power switch On,” “gas knob on,” and “speed control setting” are typically the only Lead Measures most shooters have to control their annealing process.

This is the reason I focused above on adding direct performance measures as well as improving SOME kind of calibrated LEAD measure control(s)on the process.

 

[N555]

Reverse engineer the amp machine and sell it for half the price.

For consistent torch annealing I used a full or nearly 20lb tank or at least a half full 30lb and allowed the torch to burn for 2 minutes before running any brass. If running 1lb or 14oz tanks forget about consistent gas pressure.

There appears to be 2 types of annealing.
1 Recovery annealing, less than 900f for a few seconds. That just keeps the brass from cracking, does not appear to make brass more consistent.
2 recrystallization, in excess of 1,200f for several seconds. Brass is near dead soft. And you beat the hardness back into it by smashing it through something like a standard FL die set with ball expander.

 

[JSneezy]

I’m in the 3rd camp: More popcorn!

Did you bring enough to share or do the rest of us need to bring our own? I have plenty of that white cheddar dust and some butter that I can share.

 

[Nature Boy]

I’m in the 3rd camp: More popcorn!

I guess there is a 3rd camp that says annealing isn’t necessary. At the end of it all they may be more right than anyone else.

I wouldn’t have taken up the process if there weren’t semi-automated applications available that made it less time consuming and more controllable than the manual alternatives.

I haven’t made the leap from flame to induction annealing because I’m not sure that the benefits I would see are worth the investment.

 

[JFrank]

I’m not going through all these posts , however in the interest of class project and discussion I’ll link to this thread.
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353/

 

[Nature Boy]

I’m not going through all these posts , however in the interest of class project and discussion I’ll link to this thread.
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353/

I know this thread Jim. It’s 168 pages of posts, and its title tells the story. Every discussion on the subject tends to be a “redux” of a previous one with each camp talking their side.

 

[JFrank]

I thought perhaps some of the trial and error, how to discussion in those pages might be helpful to the op.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I guess there is a 3rd camp that says annealing isn’t necessary. At the end of it all they may be more right than anyone else.

I wouldn’t have taken up the process if there weren’t semi-automated applications available that made it less time consuming and more controllable than the manual alternatives.

I haven’t made the leap from flame to induction annealing because I’m not sure that the benefits I would see are worth the investment.

Realizing of course that my level of shooting is so far down the ladder from yours we may as well be talking about crochet. You probably go through more brass in a week than I have since 2008. For me, just getting the neck hot enough, long enough to relieve work stress is fine. I’m not a competitive shooter. But I would like my hunting brass to last more than one or two seasons and I really don’t like having to crank my little aluminum Partner press hard at all.
So, pass the popcorn and carry on. I’m enjoying the show.