Another ASM with Colt Barrel Address

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I found another Armi San Marco black powder gun with the Colt address on the barrel listed on GB.

I was lucky enough to be the high bidder and it just arrived.

This one is an 1862 Pocket Police .36 caliber reproduction so there is no "Colt's Patent No." on the semi-fluted cylinder.

The frame, trigger guard and back strap are all silver plated.

Like the others that I have located, this one is dated "AP" for 1986.

They say "it never rains but it pours."

I have another waiting to be picked up at my FFL dealer.

I found it, an ASM 2nd Model Dragoon, at Simpson's Ltd..

They are in Illinois which treats BP guns as firearms so my FFL will get $20 for transferring it to me.

He's a great guy and is getting ready to break ground on a new shooting range soon so I do not begrudge him the paper work fee but different state rules sure do make life confusing!

I'll post pics when I have it in hand.

Here is what the 1862 pocket police looks like:

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Here is a link to the earlier thread on these:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=749849

 

[Crawdad1]

They're out there. A lot of confusion surrounding ASM and their relationship with the Colt percussion revolvers especially the 3rd Generation Signature Series.

 

[Crawdad1]

I always wondered what stamp ASM used on their lettering as opposed to the stamp used by Colt. Is it the same style or font or whatever?

 

[Skinny 1950]

Here is the barrel stamp of a Colt 1862 Police made in the early 1970's:

 

[Fingers McGee]

Skinny - The 2nd Gen pocket models were made between 1979 and 1981. And, the Colt barrel addressed ASMs were made between the dates of the 2nd Gens (1971-1982) & Sig series (1996-2002) guns.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

IMHO I think these Colt marked ASM are sleepers, especially in unfired condition. I have compared very closely the barrel and cylinder engravings of both my ASM Walkers against a 2nd gen Walker. Except for the Italian marks the fit and finish are identical.
So should we go through all the previous posts on this topic and come up with sticky list of such ASMs?

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

After reading the old thread it looks like we have these ASMs with Coltish barrel marks:
1847 Whitneyville Walker, 1851 Navy pocket revolver, 1860 Army revolver, and 1862 Army pocket police revolver. Is that it for now?

What are the Italian date codes for these?

My Walkers are dated 1981. That's it for me.

 

[Crawdad1]

What are the Italian date codes for these?

My Walkers are dated 1981. That's it for me.

Now that is a good idea. With a date code of 1981 puts it at the end of the Second Generation 'F' series.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Which matches the letter I got with my other Whittington Arms Walker that stated it was identical to the current production Colt Walkers.

 

[Crawdad1]

What would help would be to find out what transpired between Colt and ASM when Colt found out there were stamped Colt barrels being sold without Colt's permission. If there was a lawsuit it should be available on the internet you would think, but I can't find anything. Elhombre can you find anything?

OR, ASM developed a stamp themselves then finished the revolver running them threw Italy's 'Proof' House and sold them with or without Colt's permission.

 

[Crawdad1]

"Result? The Colt Address markings are different. Slightly different size, slightly different length of the entire marking. There are other contour differences in the machining of the entire revolver as well.'

I would say Mr. Sutton has answered our questions by his comparing the Colt stampings on the various revolvers.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Crawdaddie
Is that what Willie said in the other thread? I didnt see that.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

All of my Colt marked ASM's are "AP" (1986) coded as is my Colt marked Uberti factory cased Wells Fargo.

I am picking up the 2nd Model Dragoon in a few hours and will get pics out tomorrow (baby sitting my 3 year old grandson tonight.)

CORRECTION - the above statement about AP date codes is my mistake.

My ASM 1860 Full Fluted Richland Arms is marked "AL" for 1983.

My ASM 1862 Pocket Navy is marked "AS" for 1987.

My Uberti Cased Wells Fargo is marked "AP" for 1986.

My new ASM 1862 Pocket Police is marked "AP" for 1986.

My new ASM 2nd Model Dragoon is marked "AF" for 1980.

Sorry for the failed memory - I must learn to check my facts as well as my spelling before hitting the submit button!!!

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

I have never seen one bit of info regarding a suit or even a cease and desist letter from Colt to ASM. I am somewhat versed on patent law and TECHNICALLY the trademark Colt rollmarks on the early 1st gen Colts (1847-1862) have long been abandoned due to discontinued use by whatever legal Colt entity was in business at the time. Even with the 2nd and third gens the old trademark markings would have have to be reapplied for with the USPTO and I dont see any evidence of that in the TM files. Otherwise, Colt would not allow Uberti and Pietta to use any of the various Colt/Ormsby cylinder roll engravings. Again I am not aware of any related licensing arrangements between Colt and Uberti or Pietta for those marks which back in the day THE Colt tms.
I am sure Dr. Davis could shed a bright light on this topic.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

So we've got thus far:1847 Whitneyville Walker, 1851 Navy pocket revolver, 1860 Army revolver, and 1862 Army pocket police revolver, Wells Fargo, and 2nd model Dragoon. Don't forget the date codes.

 

[Crawdad1]

Crawdaddie
Is that what Willie said in the other thread? I didnt see that.

Yes Sir!!

With all of this discussion, including the previous thread, I'm starting to think that ASM did a whole lot more and Uberti did a whole lot less than we once believed concerning these Second and Third Generation Colts.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I just got home with the ASM 2nd Model Dragoon.

My FFL was impressed, especially when I explained about the Colt markings.

I know, I know - a business owner being impressed with a client's new toy is just good business but he seemed sincere!

It is date coded "AF" for 1980.

35 years old and it looks like it rolled of the assembly line today.

Simpson Limited Collectors Firearms even threw in a free fancy pen and flashlight combo.

Pics tomorrow I hope.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

My Hypothesis:

Whoever (ASM or Uberti) was making 2nd Gen castings for Colt got caught flatfooted when Colt decided to terminate production in the early 80's.

They were left with stamped barrels and cylinders that Colt no longer wanted.

Since the ASM Walker and the Dragoon seem to be earlier date codes, maybe Colt stopped buying parts for those earlier than the other models.

ASM/Uberti used up the Colt marked stock on hand and made no more until Cimarron/Uberti came out with their "COTL" markings later (my Cotl Walker is date coded "AS" for 1987.)

Question - can a roll stamp have moveable type?

Could Uberti have simply moved four letters to get "COTL" and "NEY-WORK" with the same roll stamp that they had been using for the "COLT" and "NEW-YORK castings for Colt???

 

[Crawdad1]

My FFL was impressed, especially when I explained about the Colt markings.

Off topic but just curious, an FFL in Ohio?

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Here are the pictures of the ASM 2nd Model Dragoon with Colt barrel address and date coded "AF" for 1980:

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I think reality just destroyed my hypothesis (SEE MY CORRECTED POST ABOVE ABOUT "AP" DATE CODES.)

If I have Colt marked ASM revolvers from 1980, 1983, 1986 and 1987 and elhombreconnonombre's Walker is 1981, it seems unlikely that ASM was just using up parts left over from a failed Colt deal.

I wonder if they were just testing the water now and then to see what Colt would do?

It is interesting that these dates are mostly between the end of the 2nd Gen Colts and the beginning of the 3rd gens.

Maybe Colt just let them slide as they were a small fraction of a market that Colt had given up on.

 

[Crawdad1]

Good pic of the stamp Ephraim, if we can't determine if that is a real Colt stamp from that pic we all need to see an eye doctor.

But where did ASM get the stamp? And if ASM or Uberti was supplying only rough castings to either Lou Imperato or Val Forgett for final finishing then to Colt for inspection these don't look like 'rough' castings to me.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I agree Crawdad1.

I would think the stamping and engraving would be the last step before bluing.

But then how "rough" was meant by the term "rough casting" in this partnership?

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Here is a comparison of the barrel addresses on several 2nd Model Dragoons respectively:

1. Colt 1st Gen. version
2. Colt 2nd Gen. Black Box version
3. Colt 3rd Gen. Signature Series version
4. See my post at 5:58 for the Armi San Marco 1980 version