Another Home Defense Q

[millele3]

Hi,

I am marginally experiences in handguns (I have owned a 38 & 9mm – I have shot 22, 380, 357, 45, etc. and my friend at the range even let me shoot her S&W 460. !!

I am shopping for a new firearm for home defense purposes. My wife is a total rookie (fresh out of NRA firearm safety class), and will need to be able to handle the firearm comfortably. I have some requirements and some general preferences.

Requirements:
-> 1 Shot stopping power
-> Round and caliber tendency towards low penetration and high disbursement
-> Manageable recoil for my wife = No Desert Eagle

Preferences:
-> Semi-auto action

I did some research, and on the surface, it appears the .357 Magnum revolver is the premier choice for home defense, stopping power, etc. I have heard horror stories from law enforcement about how many rounds 9mm has taken to stop an angry felon (even dogs!).

However, I really like the performance of the semi-auto. I understand spring fatigue, and the fact that I would need to rotate cartridges, and properly train my wife, but I still prefer an auto.

I hear the 357 SIG is nice, but I am concerned with too much penetration (I don’t want to kill a neighbor through walls in a dynamic critical incident). However, I want one-shot stopping power…

Any recommendations? Please help???

 

[CHAINGUNMASSACRE]

Well, the 9mm with a decent load is a PROVEN manstopper. It's relativily fast-stepping, moderate recoil, all of the other usual stuff about it being an "easy" sd round. But what you HAVE to realize is that any handgun, regardless of caliber or bullet, is not the optimum 'one shot stop" weapon. They are the modern day equivalent of a sword, a backup weapon for when you don't have acess to a long gun. The only weapon that has been proven to be an unbeatable one shot stopper is a 12 or 20 guage shotgun, loaded with damn near anything at close range. For across the room, or house shooting you'd be best served with #4 buckshot.mLow risk of overpenetration, killing bystanders, neighbors, all that bad stuff. Another great quick stopper is the 5.56mm loaded with appropriate CQB ammo. I know, it's hard to believe, it's just a lil ol .22.......but let me tell you, it usually does the trick. Downsides to shotgun for HD-touch one off in a hallway, or small room and you will likely suffer terrible, if not permanent hearing damage. Same with a short barrelled AR. My hearing has not been the same since Iraq.

 

[CWL]

Welcome to THR!

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but there is no such thing as a one shot stop % caliber or bullet (if there was, why aren't our troops armed with them in Iraq & Afghanistan?) It's all hype to sell bullets and books.

The secret to self defense with a gun is like the secret to any other martial arts. Lots and lots of dedicated practice. If you are good, any decent brand will suffice.

Any caliber you list is OK, as long as you practice to hit the target, although .357SIG tends to have a really snappy recoil and a HUGE muzzle flash.

Spend some time and browse the postings, you'll see many many postings similiar to yours, I hope you will be able to pull the truth from the hype.

 

[mokin]

Take your wife shopping with you and see how well the handgun fits both of your hands. When you find one that seems to work, try to shoot one before you buy. I am comfortable trading the "stopping power" of a large handgun for the extra range time my wife will spend shooting a smaller one. My wife handles and shoots the 9 mm's much better than she shoots my 10 mm and in a pinch that is what will probably count the most.

 

[greenled]

milelle, will this be a gun you and your wife will share?

I ask because different people are comfortable with different guns, and it may be hard to find a gun that "fits" both you and her.

 

[millele3]

Thanks

Thanks kindly for all of your responses.

Maybe I should clarify, instead of "1 shot stopping power" I should say: "maximum stopping power" or, "NOT 6 round stopping power"

Can anyone address the question of high power / caliber semi-automatics? I realize a 357 SIG is really just a 9mm in slug diameter, but it is supposed to perform more like a 357 magnum in power. Anyone familiar with the characteristics of different high-powered semi-autos?

Also, my wife and I will DEFINITELY try out the weapon together, and find one comfortable for us. Just today my wife shot 9mm & 38 and handled them fine.

I am looking for a "shopping stating point", and prefer semi-auto, but higher-power.

thanks!!!

 

[ARTiger]

.45 ACP in a full sized semi auto is not bad in the recoil department. My wife shoots my 1911's and loves my Ruger P345.

 

[MICHAEL T]

A good 4" 357 You can practice with 38 and when ready to step up to 357 . Lots of selection in ammo and both have a proven record . The wheel gun is relieable and easy to learn . Has been stopping BG for way over a 100 years..

 

[CWL]

Maybe I should clarify, instead of "1 shot stopping power" I should say: "maximum stopping power" or, "NOT 6 round stopping power"

That's the problem, there is no guarantee because you don't know the size of your opponent, how thick the clothes are, whether the BG is on drugs, where you hit him/her, how angry they are...all you can do is to do your absolute best to stop the attack.

One of my Richmond, CA SWAT trainers likes to share a tale about an encounter where one Operator was shooting .45ACPs into the COM of a BG who was coming down the stairs at him. Every round went in COM (and later autopsy showed that the bullets tore-up his heart)-but he didn't stop coming. It took a 12ga to finally stop him.

Once again, THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET. Change your approach. Your best bet is to train and train and train -and to hone your situational awareness skills.
Just as a Japanese sword doesn't automatically make you a Ninja, a big gun doesn't make you a gunfighter. It's all in the mindset and training.

(oh, I'd like to add that my gun and caliber choice is M1911s in .45ACP, but the only time I've ever fired a pistol in anger it was 9mm.)

 

[un_lucky]

If your going to share I'm thinking wheel gun. Then hopefully you can save for his and hers of whatever you choose. From 38 spl+p on up there is very little difference in stopping power between calibers with good modern loads.

 

[millele3]

CWL - Misunderstood?

CWL:

I understand that the opponent varies - the BG may or may not be stopped by one bullet - the BG mad? haev high levels of adrenaline? on crack? PCP? there are many variances. None of which matter to the question I asked. The essence of the question is still the same.

Take the SAME bad guy - and the same defender and the result will be different per different weapons.

Bad guy "A" will be affected by a .22 target pistol differently than a .357 magnum. You can assume that you will diminish the threat's ability to cause harm to you y a hit in the upper chest region from a .367 than a .22

I wasn't asking about combat tactics, or assessing threats, simply general "stopping" power a particular weapons on the SAME threat.

ARTiger - thanks for the advice on the 45 ACP - other than that it sounds like there isn't any knowledge available here on 357 SIGs or other higher powered semi-autos?

 

[neededausername]

millele3,

I was recently in a similar situation. I was shopping for my first handgun and I had it in my mind that I needed a big bad caliber(I know this is your wife's first not yours, I said similar). After much research and much advice from my wife, who grew up shooting, I bought a .22LR. I know it's not the best choice for defense, but I happily keep it next to my bed. I'm sure everyone on here would agree, it wouldn't be they're preferred defense gun, but they would rather have it than be unarmed.

Why did I pick a .22LR?
Very simply it comes down to the fact that I'm not very experienced with handguns. From your post I'm guessing your wife isn't either. A .22 doesn't kick that much, sames goes with noise and flash. Much easier to learn the basics of shooting because of those considerations. Trust me when I'm at the range I barely notice my guns noise, but the big bang of the guy next to me can bother me. The other great thing about .22's is that they ammo is cheap. I got a box of 550 rounds for 15 dollars. That's a lot of practice for not much money.

I eventually want to get a .357 for myself and a .45ACP for my wife, trust me she can handle it. Until I learn to shoot well I don't want something that big. Old habits die hard, that goes with good habits and bad habits. Once I develop all the good habits I'll get something bigger, but until then I'm very happy with my .22. I'd rather be able to put a couple of shots on target with a small round than none with a big round.

Don't mean to sound preachy or experienced. Just telling how I felt when I started looking, and how happy I am that I listened to the advice I got.

 

[RobertFBurnett]

^ Marlin 60 or Ruger 10/22 should be in every shooters collection imho.

If you simply don't want to go down the .38/.357 wheel road, and .357 Magnum is one heck of a round btw. I'd say get a good 9mm, the Speer Gold Dot JHP in a quality casing is a dependable performer, I am not one but I hear it is a leading contender for LEO agencies (That and federal ___.) attention.

.357 Magnum is not a quiet round by any means, but you can get close with a good .38 HD round...on the other hand I have heard some stories about the .357 SIG being a little heck raiser in indoor ranges, can't imagine it would be pleasant without ears for SD...but thats a whole different argument about adrenaline and theory.

Also stick to JHP, there has been much chatter recently about 9mm FMJ flying through walls.

Just my $0.02, happy shopping,

RFB

 

[Ala Dan]

"One shot stopping power"

Well my friend, there is NO HANDGUN CALIBER that is guaranteed too
make one shot stops every time; from any handgun platform~!

 

[Thernlund]

Nevermind. I wasn't paying attention.


-T.

 

[moooose102]

well, first, the one thing you need, regardless on which caliber you decide on is the correct ammunition. several companies make "personal defense" cartridges, that are made specificly for just that purpose. with a plus factor of having reduced muzzle flash. this may not seem important, unless you have ever shot at night. touch off most pistols, be it revolver or semi-auto, and the first thing you will notice is that for abour ten seconds afterwards, EVERYTHING that WAS in your line of sight JUST DISAPEARS! that is because your pupils are pretty much wide open, trying to gather as much light as they can, and along comes this big flash from the muzzle, it is kind of like looking into the sun, on a lesser degree. also, the "personal defense" rounds are made to open up inside a body, this helps with energy transfer, and some of this ammo is suposed to not go through a typical interior wall,. which would supposedly keep other poeple in your home safe in case of a miss. for max power, it is hard to beat the big calibers, 10mm, 45acp, 40 s&w. but the 9mm, 357 sig, or even a 380 won't do a bad job. but the most important thing is going to be shot placement. it is pretty hard to stop a person if all you do is put a hole in his hand. once you get a pistol, buy some real person silhouette targets, and go practice at around 20 - 40 foot range. that is where most home and personal defense situations will take place. and this is where you NEED to be proficient. also, you should get and READ a couple of books or video's on the LEGAL aspects of defending yourself. it will not do you any good (well not much) to shoot an intruder if you end up in jail. some states have legal requirements as to when you can legally shot someone, even in your own home. if you ever do shoot someone, do not alter the scene at all. the only thing you should do is offer medical assistance if it is needed (assuming the b.g. lived through the shooting). but be very careful in this area, especialy if he is still armed. if it is available where you live, call a couple of shooting ranges and see if they rent pistols. if they do, that would be a GREAT way of helping you make a decision on what gun to buy. good luck in your decision!

 

[millele3]

Re: Ala Dan

Thanks ALA DAN, we covered that. There are no guarantees in life. The question was restated twice requesting higher stopping power in a semi-auto. The only answer seems to be 45 ACP, no one has opinions on the 357 SIG

Thanks all!

 

[millele3]

Thanks All!

My quest for a solution that has power, low penetration with maximum disbursment still seems to lead to the common solution:
-> .357 Magnum with JHP rounds.

I just wish I knew of a solution that would perform like the above, on a semi-auto platform.

Thanks again.

 

[CWL]

My quest for a solution that has power, low penetration with maximum disbursment still seems to lead to the common solution:

I'll try again. You don't seem to be interested in the fact that if you learn to shoot, then gun calibers don't matter that much so I'll spend some effort on your hardware concerns.

Penetration. First off, you want penetration in a handgun caliber. ALL HANDGUN CALIBERS ARE NOT RELIABLE FOR SD. If you can understand this, you will realize that handgun cartridges just don't have the same performance that rifles and shotguns do. Your biggest danger if you manage to hit an attacker is that the bullets do not penetrate deeply enough to hit vitals or cause quick bleed-out in order to stop the assault. So you want handgun caliber bullets to penetrate. I think 12" penetration into ballistic gelatin is accepted the minimal with 15-16" as optimal to hit organs and cause max tissue damage.

Disbursement. I think you mean bullet expansion -not bullet breaking-up or frangibility. Frangible handgun rounds still haven't lived up to claims while there are many good jacketed hollowpoint (JHP) designs on the market.

As to your desire for .357SIG data, yes, I own one, yes it is fun to shoot, but I find that it has a snappy recoil and it causes a huge muzzleblast. Texas State Troopers and US Air Marshall are issued this caliber. FYI Air Marshalls are trained to take head shots on airplanes -that should tell you something about accuracy, as well as overpenetration in an pressurized airplane.

Why don't you study this site. This is a compilation of calibers and bullets tested in FBI Ballistic gelatin, some with heavy denim. This is about as good a set of testing data that a Civvie will get to see.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html

 

[gallo]

I opened a similar thread to inquire about the .357 Sig muzzle flash and noise. Here is the name:
.357 Sig Muzzle Flash and Noise

You can buy a .40 caliber and switch the barrel to a 9mm or you can also buy a .357 Sig and fire .40. These options make the gun more versatile.

I'm also of the opinion that every gun owner should have a .22 gun in its collection. It is an extremely useful caliber for all types of situations.

 

[Water-Man]

Go with a 9mm and load it with Federal HST 124 grain + P

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If your wife is a novice, she will NOT shoot a .357 Magnum revolver comfortably, probably not for quite some time. Plus, wasn't one of your criteria a concern about over-pentration?

Get a Para-Ordnance P14.45. If you're not comfortable with the 1911 single action trigger, get the LDA 14.45 version with the double action trigger.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

FYI Air Marshalls are trained to take head shots on airplanes -that should tell you something about accuracy, as well as overpenetration in an pressurized airplane.

Keep in mind that air marshals use frangible ammo.

 

[m38shooter]

My quest for a solution that has power, low penetration with maximum disbursment still seems to lead to the common solution:
-> .357 Magnum with JHP rounds.

I just wish I knew of a solution that would perform like the above, on a semi-auto platform.

Thanks again

I doubt that you'd want to spend A) the time and/or B) the cash, but there WAS a .357 Mag semi-auto built on the 1911 platform. It's out of production now and from what I've seen they're fairly pricey, but it fits your solution.

Dan Coonan .357 Magnum pistol

 

[millele3]

RE: CWL - Thanks Blanca

Who has 100% accuracy during a dynamic critical incident? Learning to shoot is only part of the picture. Of course one is responsible for their rounds after they leave their weapon... even more so one wants to statistically minimize the chances of collateral damage during a dynamic critical incident in the home. Therefore, I feel I need lower penetration and higher disbursement.

Over penetration will kill a neighbor.

By disbursement, I mean maximum transfer from the projectile's energy into the target. This can be accomplished by fragmentation, mushrooming, etc.