Another Home Defense Q

[conw]

Why even bother with a handgun if it's for "home defense?" You could get an AR in .223, some kind of semi-auto .308, a 9mm or .40 carbine, a 12 or 20 ga. shotgun, or any number of preferable loadings in rifle/etc calibers if you aren't going to be toting it concealed - if it's just going to be at home.

If you're saying you want something for concealed and home def, that's different, but why limit yourself to a handgun if you are interested in HD and want good power? You could even get a semi-auto Saiga 20 gauge for under $400. That fulfills all your criteria nicely

Also stick to JHP, there has been much chatter recently about 9mm FMJ flying through walls.

As for this quote by another poster, even JHP will go through walls. I will eat a little humble pie now and admit that I had a negligent discharge...with my Kel-tec in 9mm...recently, and the JHP round went through a thick sheetrock wall, a door, and bounced off a metal filing cabinet. I think if the metal filing cabinet had been a sheetrock wall or a person it would have done a lot of damage.

You seem to be reading a lot of data on "penetration," etc...but if the round doesn't hit your target (the home invader) it is GOING to penetrate like hell. If my 9mm subcompact shooting JHPs went through sheetrock walls and a 3.5" door frame, anything will.

Oh, and with handguns 9mm or bigger (or even 38spl) will do fine. Those stories are just stories. Data doesn't bear them out; those are statistical outliers.

 

[m38shooter]

As for this quote by another poster, even JHP will go through walls. I will eat a little humble pie now and admit that I had a negligent discharge...with my Kel-tec in 9mm...recently, and the JHP round went through a thick sheetrock wall, a door, and bounced off a metal filing cabinet.

This is because JHP rounds are designed to expand better in fluid targets, like the ~60% water that make up the human body. When it hits something soft and dry (some wood, drywall, multiple layers of thick clothing, etc.) the cavity gets plugged up and gives the bullet the effect of being FMJ. This is why where you hit is generally more important than what you hit it with.

 

[glockman19]

millele3,

Welcome to THR.

"One shot stopping power"

Then I'd say you're looking at a Desert Eagle in .44 mag or .50 Caliber. As close as you'll get to a 1 shot stopper.

 

[conw]

m38shooter wrote:

This is why where you hit is generally more important than what you hit it with.

That's exactly what I mean. Hence, the ammo/gun-mag hype that the OP seems to have bought into to some degree needs to be addressed...

a) mindset
b) skills
c) equipment/ammo selection

That's the order in which you need to address your home security. Lots of gun mags seem to espouse that

a) latest, greatest gun
b) best ammo
and c) rambo mentality

are the way to go about it...

No offense to the OP, but from all the worry about "overpenetration," "one shot stops," etc, it sounds like he was exposed to some less-than-realistic ideas about guns and ammo. I meant to make clear that shot placement is much more important than ammo choice, not only when it comes to stopping power but when it comes to gross penetration.

 

[Samuel Adams]

Home defense = 12 guage w/ #6 shot.

 

[CWL]

I've met lots of people over the past 30 years in the Dojo whose first question is "how quickly can I get a black belt?" and "How soon do I get to use swords?"

Well, black belts are earned thru dedicated training and commitment, and swords come when you have proven yourself.

You can go buy a black belt and a sword on eBay -BUT you can never purchase the knowledge it takes to go with them.

Firearms are a martial art. Expertise comes from training, not from a checkbook.

 

[Caliber0]

I echo the sentiment on home defense. I will pick up my 12g Mossberg 590 first. Have the pistol as a backup.

 

[CHAINGUNMASSACRE]

As for this quote by another poster, even JHP will go through walls. I will eat a little humble pie now and admit that I had a negligent discharge...with my Kel-tec in 9mm...recently, and the JHP round went through a thick sheetrock wall, a door, and bounced off a metal filing cabinet. I think if the metal filing cabinet had been a sheetrock wall or a person it would have done a lot of damage.

You seem to be reading a lot of data on "penetration," etc...but if the round doesn't hit your target (the home invader) it is GOING to penetrate like hell. If my 9mm subcompact shooting JHPs went through sheetrock walls and a 3.5" door frame, anything will.

Yeppers......I had an idiotic ND with my BHP. Luckily I had pointed it at a bed to drop the hammer. 147gr JHP went through comforter,sheets,matress,boxsprings-then hit the concrete floor under the bed and came back up through the box springs, matress, and was found perfectly mushroomed in the comforter. Just about made it out of the down comforter, fabric was all stretched, but she didn't quite have the oomph to break out. Scary. I was clearing the wepon to clean it, must've had a round in the mag that I didn't know about that I inadvertently chambered when I racked it before dropping the mag. Didn't seem odd to me that the slide came forward.(another story gleaning guns=2 glasses of strong wine=dumb **** happening) But the point is this, a JHP can and will penetrate a lot further than you might think!

 

[Confederate]

I think the only way you're going to get a one-shot stop probability is with a .357 mag with 125-gr JHPs. The price you'll pay, though, is a devastating blast of light and sound can create substantial post-traumatic stress. Outdoors, camping or hiking, two thumbs up; however, at night, indoors, a .38 Spc +P, 9mm or a .22LR Ruger pistol will be hard to beat. A .45ACP also might be the ticket.

 

[millele3]

RE: m38shooter

Desert Eagle Mark XIX Pistol DE357, 357 Rem Mag = $1,342
With JHP rounds, maybe thats the solution?
Although I have heard less than stellar things about Desert Eagles... only twice the price of a S&W 686

 

[macadore]

Home defense = 12 guage w/ #6 shot.

Oh no!!! Not again!!!

 

[conw]

millele3,

are you kidding about the D. Eagle?

If you have that much cash to spend and you want a proven option that will work for you AND your wife, there are SO many better options.

-357 wheelguns paired with lever actions
You could get a couple of 3" barrel revolvers in 357, which of course also shoots 38spl, and at least one lever action 357/38 lever action. This opens up so many possibilities it's phenomenal, and all with one ammo/operability platform.

-9mm, 40, or 45 semi-auto handgun & carbine
You could get tons of options going on here, and it's as simple as the above. You could even get some platforms that share magazines...KelTec carbines share mags with glocks for example.

-Several 20 gauge shotguns

Any of those are way better options than the Desert Eagle for $1300 in and of itself...but I'm starting to think you're "JK."

 

[Zach S]

My advice: HiPoint Carbine. 9mm and .40sw arent one-shot man-stoppers, but several will ruin just about anyone's day. Shot placement is everything, and its always easier to get hits with a longun than a pistol.

If you have a little more money to blow, get a 9mm AR, or the whateveritis, CX4?

Oh no!!! Not again!!!

I thought the same thing. Was almost even tickled to death...

 

[ZeSpectre]

Hi millele3 and welcome to THR!

I'm going to address a few points below. Please understand as I do so that I am attempting to provide some constructive criticism and in no way intend to sound like I'm bashing.

Requirements:
-> 1 Shot stopping power
-> Round and caliber tendency towards low penetration and high disbursement
-> Manageable recoil for my wife = No Desert Eagle
Preferences:
-> Semi-auto action

As others have most ably pointed out, "one shot stop" is a myth. I have, with my own eyes seen someone dropped by a single .380 round and also seen someone take 3 full house .357 magnum rounds and walk into the emergency room under his own power 10 minutes later.

People worry about "overpenetration" and I understand the concern but if (God Forbid) you ever find yourself in a self defense situation you will only care about one thing and that is having your firearm/chosen ammo take care of the business at hand.

While I'm personally a fan of the .40 Smith & Wesson round, it has it's drawbacks in that it is a loud and snappy round and requires a bit of extra dedication to learn to shoot it well. There are several fine firearms that handle this round well but the best of the best for it (in my experience) seem to be either a CZ-75B or a SIG 229.

For someone new to firearms the standard (and still reliable) advice is to get a good 4" revolver in .357 Magnum. You have the option of using an incredible variety of .38 special loads as well as .357 Magnum loads if you so desire. Also buy a couple of speed loaders and a few sets of dummy "snap caps" so you can practice reloading techniques until you are comfortable handling the firearm.

A few related notes on a self-defense mentality
-Run through scenarios (at least in your mind) that way you are prepared.
"After the whistle blows is no time to come up with a game plan".

-Plan to work together (One person takes point, the other handles the phone)

-PRACTICE!

-Have a plan "B" in case the firearm is ineffective or inappropriate (for example what if you have a multi-person attack and you run out of ammo?)

-If you ever (God Forbid) have to deal with an intruder you must MUST remember this rule. "Criminals are like cockroaches, if you see one you MUST automatically assume that there might be more present that you don't see yet".

 

[mnw42]

For HD nothing beats a 12ga. shotgun.

I don't have any real neighbors so I can get away with using a rifle and as such I keep my M1 Carbine with Cor-Bon DPXs, or my Winchester M94 next to the bed. A .223 or 7.62x39 would make a fine choice. But with any rifle over penetration and the noise in a confined space is a real issue.

Pistol chambered carbines are handy, accurate, reliable and inexpensive and can give good service in that role.

If you have to use a hand gun I'd strongly recommend a .45, a .44 special, or other similar cartridge. The .357 is an excellent stopper, but the flash and noise would be unpleasant in a small room. I like my Smith M22-4 in that role - dead simple and fast to reload.

 

[ZeSpectre]

The .357 is an excellent stopper, but the flash and noise would be unpleasant in a small room.

Now that is a masterpiece of understatement <grin>.

 

[mnw42]

It's been a while since I shot a .357 inside, but I do shoot 7.62x25 from time to time. That 86 gr. pill doing 1600fps out of my CZ52 does get your attention. I don't think I'd recommend that for HD either!

 

[conw]

I'm a big fan of my Hi Point 9mm carbine. I say this all the time, but I'm an intermediate shooter at best and can empty a mag with it 25 yds downrange COM every time in less than 5 seconds. That seems sufficient for HD. I use a red dot sight.

I opted for a Kel-Tec P11 for concealed carry, so all I shoot is 9mm. Interoperability is really great, because you can really "stack it deep" if you so choose.

 

[macadore]

Welcome to the forum millele3

The stopping power debate has been going on over a century and shows no sign of abating. There is very little difference in one shot stopping power among the 38 Special + p, the 357 Magnum, the 9x19, the 357 Sig, the 40 S&W, the 45 ACP, the 44 Special, and 10 mm rounds. It seems to me that the 7.62x25 should also work well. The 9x18 and 9x17 are adequate in most situations that do not require deeper penetration (i.e., shooting through something before getting into the vitals).

My personal favorite is the Glock 32 in 357 Sig. However, that’s just my opinion. I would not feel under gunned with any of the aforementioned rounds in a reliable firearm and certainly do not look askance on those who choose them. Pick the one that feels best in your hand. If possible, shoot it before buying it because some firearms take on a wholly different personality once you shoot them. Pocket pistols are particularly bad about this.

Once you purchase a firearm, shoot it… a lot. That brings up another consideration, pick a caliber that you can afford so shoot enough to feel comfortable in your ability to hit your target. Currently, the 9x19 is the least expensive. After you feel comfortable with your handgun, then you can branch out into the exotic and more expensive calibers.

One more thing. We are not beating up on you. You have made some assumptions that inexperienced people often make. There is a fine line between low penetration and inadequate penetration. Many hand gunners feel the most important consideration in a handgun round is its ability to completely penetrate the human body from any angle. Manageable recoil is a matter of personal opinion that varies with attitude and experience. The semi-autos are great, but are more complex and more prone to malfunction. This means that shooting one effectively requires more practice.

Keep reading. I have learned a lot from THR.

 

[Mastiff]

I'd go with a 1911 with a 460 Rowland conversion, if one shot stopping power were my only criteria. You get 44 Magnum ballistics with more ammo, less recoil (less felt recoil than a 45 ACP!) and it is much easier to shoot.
Next on my list (what I actually use) is a 1911 or a clone set up for 9x23 Winchester, loaded with Corbon Pow'rballs.

 

[Ltlabner]

I'm just going to start cutting and pasting this answer into the bazillion different "what should I get" threads that start here every day....

"As long as your weapon is at least .380Auto (preferably 9mm) or larger get the weapon that (1) fits best in your hand (2) you can trust to reliably function at nearly 100% all the time (3) best fits your normal CCW situation and (4) fits into your budget"

You have to decide on your weapon, we can't do it for you.

 

[ozarkman]

echo the sentiment on home defense. I will pick up my 12g Mossberg 590 first. Have the pistol as a backup.

Yep.. that's tough logic to argue with. Its not like you're trying to conceal the thing, you're trying to protect your home and loved ones. It irritates me when folks assume that we should somehow limit ourselves to something less than ideal when protecting ourselves and loved ones, I'm not for giving the bad guys a free shot, and handicapping ourselves in process. I think if someone breaks into your home and wants to fight, you should not dissappoint them. 12 gaugers make wonderful fight stoppers.

 

[macadore]

Shotguns are not my first choice for home defense. They are slower to get on target than handguns and even more so in halls, doorways and other restricted places. They are even slower, more awkward and more difficult to get on target from less than optimal positions (e.g., attacked from behind, lying in bed, setting in a recliner, shooting form concealment, lying on the floor, and so on). It seems a follow up shot from those positions would be even more difficult. I can’t imagine leaving a shotgun with a chambered round so racking the slide is one more thing that slows you down. In a situation where milliseconds count, I can’t afford any of this. As Bill Jordan noted, there is no second place winner.

 

[Confederate]

Okay, a 12 ga. is an excellent home defense gun, but it's mostly for ensconced defenders. The blast and recoil are a bit much for my taste and the truth is, almost any .22LR auto, 9mm, .38/.357, .44/.45 non-magnum or 20/12 ga. shotgun will be more than adequate. We argue the finer points because we have that luxury, but if you're behind a bed or otherwise fortified, you're going to be at a huge advantage. But if you're walking around in the dark with one of those tactical flashlights or lasers attached to your gun, your advantage shrinks substantially.

My father was one of those people who would get his gun and go downstairs in the dark if he heard a noise. He's in his eighties now and would probably still do it. And of course his Colt .45 G.I. had been in the drawer for years, so we were glad no one ever got in.

A 12 ga. is too heavy for my druthers and, unless you've got a short barrel, it's difficult to use in some tactical situations. My little Ruger .22LR is generally what I prefer, but a 1-shot stop, while not guaranteed in any caliber, is probable with the .357.

 

[philbytx]

One size doesn't fit all....

One shot stopping is really target and aim dependent !

For beginners with minimal training, you can't beat a 9mm loaded with a high grain JHP cartridge and a 15rd magazine! You thusly have 16 rounds if you keep one in the chamber.

A Glock 19 is a nicely sized weapon which is an easy one for me and also comfortable for my missus. One thing to remember is that Glock's are an "instant on" weapon with one in the chamber which, IMHO, makes it an ideal PD weapon. YMMV though

I go along with the others who said to go "try on" some weapons at a good gun store.