armoredman
Member
From last range trip.
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Another Oleg attempt...
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RoyG
Member
I like it!!!
ID_shooting
Member
I would rather have seen an EBR or somthing similar. While the Nagat helped keep the Germans out of most of Russia, it also was a tool to oppress a large number of folks.
OP
OP
armoredman
Member
Perhaps I should have clarified as a rifle in civilian hands. As for the EBR, that IS my EBR! I can't afford anything else right now.... Someday when i have $ to spend, I'll pick up an FAL.
For the meantime, this is it....
For the meantime, this is it....
mr.trooper
Member
Good gravy people.
jumping all over him because of what a certain gun was used for 50+ years ago?
Does owning a SKS assosiate me with the VC? according to this kind of thinking it does.
Get real.
jumping all over him because of what a certain gun was used for 50+ years ago?
Does owning a SKS assosiate me with the VC? according to this kind of thinking it does.
Get real.
Control Group
Member
Rabbi, just because Mao Tse Tung said it doesn't make it false. In fact, one could claim the second amendment says much the same thing: if political power doesn't grow out of the barrel of a gun, why should a free population need to be armed?
Frankly, I agree with Mao. Political power does ultimately rest on the ability to wreak havoc on a massive scale. I'm pretty sure this country wouldn't be free for real long after we disbanded the military, disarmed the police, and destroyed all private weapons. To quote George Orwell: "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Frankly, I agree with Mao. Political power does ultimately rest on the ability to wreak havoc on a massive scale. I'm pretty sure this country wouldn't be free for real long after we disbanded the military, disarmed the police, and destroyed all private weapons. To quote George Orwell: "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Freedom is not a rifle.
Rifles are used to defend freedom.
That doesn't make them freedom itself.
Rifles are used to defend freedom.
That doesn't make them freedom itself.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
Excellent light in the range photo -- very nice detail and colors. 
OP
OP
armoredman
Member
Thank you sir, a total accident. I am but a humble student...
If anyone has a better saying, I still have the basic photo....
Guys,
This is supposed to be (pardon the term) a propaganda poster. It is supposed to be persuasive to people towards a certain view. Whether the view is correct or not or defensible or not is besides the point. It has to make sense, not be self-contradictory, deliver a plain and simple message.
This poster does none of those things. As Standing Wolf says, Freedom is not a rifle. It may be guarantee of freedom, it may be a symbol of freedom, it may be a tool of freedom, but it isnt freedom.
Using a Soviet-made weapon to promote freedom is self contradictory. The Soviets were the epitome of totalitarianism and government absolutism. Suggesting a quote from Chairman Mao does not promote freedom nor is it persuasive to anyone. It sounds like leftist propaganda from the 1960s and the Symbionese Liberation Army. It is not an image or thought we ought to be pushing.
This is supposed to be (pardon the term) a propaganda poster. It is supposed to be persuasive to people towards a certain view. Whether the view is correct or not or defensible or not is besides the point. It has to make sense, not be self-contradictory, deliver a plain and simple message.
This poster does none of those things. As Standing Wolf says, Freedom is not a rifle. It may be guarantee of freedom, it may be a symbol of freedom, it may be a tool of freedom, but it isnt freedom.
Using a Soviet-made weapon to promote freedom is self contradictory. The Soviets were the epitome of totalitarianism and government absolutism. Suggesting a quote from Chairman Mao does not promote freedom nor is it persuasive to anyone. It sounds like leftist propaganda from the 1960s and the Symbionese Liberation Army. It is not an image or thought we ought to be pushing.
Ian Sean
Member
A little off topic but, wow what a nice table!...Where is this range at?
RoyG
Member
Most people wouldn't know it was a comm-bloc rifle. They think the only rifles they used were AKs.
Markheck1
Member
Not the definition of freedom...the Instrument of Freedom....just my .02
OP
OP
armoredman
Member
I must be doing something right - everyone is bickering.
Ok, lemme see what I can do with this....how's this?
BTW, Ian, that is the Tucson Mountain Park public range, west of Tucson, AZ.
Symbolism my friend, as well as Orwell stated that the symbol of freedom was the rifle in the labourers' cot. Same thing.
When I can afford another rifle I'll use it. Right now I have Soviet, Yugoslavian, and Czechsolvakian - holy cow, I must be a commie!
Never did.
Ok, lemme see what I can do with this....how's this?
BTW, Ian, that is the Tucson Mountain Park public range, west of Tucson, AZ.
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ctdonath
Member
Not sure about that longer text; some may see it as "oppression is coming here via that evil gun".
How about: "I value liberty. Liberty exists only where citizens may own guns."
...or some such.
Edit: Actually, I'm liking your original text. Maybe squeeze in "citizen" somewhere ("...a citizen's rifle").
How about: "I value liberty. Liberty exists only where citizens may own guns."
...or some such.
Edit: Actually, I'm liking your original text. Maybe squeeze in "citizen" somewhere ("...a citizen's rifle").
mondocomputerman
Member
I like it. Nice picture.
DRZinn
Member
KISS, but I'd change "the definition of freedom" to "the defender of freedom" and perhaps add "a citizen's" rifle. Keep in mind who your audience is and what they know and/or believe.
telomerase
Member
I think the Moisin-Nagant actually comes from the Czar's time, although of course the Bolsheviks kept making them. And weren't they used by the Finns in 1940?
Anyway, it's 2005, and a country where the private citizens can't own post-WWII weapons technology is not very free.
Sam
Member
Nice job AM.
Rabbi,
I think it is singularly apprppriate to use what was once a symbol of opression for a more enlightened purpose.
Sam
Rabbi,
I think it is singularly apprppriate to use what was once a symbol of opression for a more enlightened purpose.
Sam
confed sailor
Member
saying the mosin-nagant represents the brutal regime of stalin makes about as much sense as condeming the ex-nazi 98k's used by israel when she defended her freedom against the arab nations.
A gun is a thing, an object, its orgins are not relevant, the fact that its in the hands of a free citizen of this republic, makes it a tool of freedom, no matter what that particular rifle or even the model of rifle had been used for previously by another power.
this discussion is dangerious on its own, as i read the posts of pro-gunners who, judging by their posts, seem to take the Anti-gunner stance of personafying and loading a tool of steel and wood with the guilt of its owners.
i see this as the truest expression of freedom using the oppressors tools to strike back at them.
in my humblest of opinions
A gun is a thing, an object, its orgins are not relevant, the fact that its in the hands of a free citizen of this republic, makes it a tool of freedom, no matter what that particular rifle or even the model of rifle had been used for previously by another power.
this discussion is dangerious on its own, as i read the posts of pro-gunners who, judging by their posts, seem to take the Anti-gunner stance of personafying and loading a tool of steel and wood with the guilt of its owners.
i see this as the truest expression of freedom using the oppressors tools to strike back at them.
in my humblest of opinions
Wrong.
As I pointed out, this is advertising/propaganda. Thus ANY connection the object represents or connotes is legitimate for criticism. Sure, in itself a Mosin Nagant is just another rifle, no different from a Garand (and this one is a very nice example btw). But for this purpose there is a world of difference between a rifle that was used at D-Day by American forces (read: our fathers and grandfathers--the "Greatest Generation") and one that was used by Communist stooges. In this context these things become symbols. And the symbols have to be consistent and direct.
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