Another range moron heard from...

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As if I'm not excessively conscious/paraniod about ME handling handguns, of which I'm proud to say Im always safe, this thread has made me even more worried about others.

I mainly stick to sporting clay ranges, and I see some violations from time to time, and they are usually quickly and politely corrected but handgun ranges.....wow.

That being said I have been struck by a pellet on the skeet range at the #4 station in the lip. Just broke the skin, but nothing more. The source was never verified but I know understand why safety glasses are required(and I was wearing them). Being swept, shot at, and or hit is terrifying-
 
keeleon said:
why is it actually a bad idea?
{requiring a safety course to purchase a weapon--BD}
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The secondary reason is that such requirements can be subject to abuse. Therefore, they're not appropriate in this instance.

The real reason is this:
Fundamental human rights do not require proof to passersby that one is worthy to hold them.

If you see someone who needs to learn, help them. Teach them.
 
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So do you think it's stupid that people have to get a driver's license to drive a car? I would say that, even though it isn't in the American Constitution, mobility is a "human right". But if you are too dumb to pass the driver's test, then there is nothing stopping you from walking. Likewise, if you are dumb enough to fail a handgun safety course (doesn't have to be a hard test), then maybe you should just have the right to "bear" a knife or a stick (which are by definition arms, btw). Guns are dangerous in the hands of stupid people, as has been agreed upon here, just like cars are dangerous in the possession of stupid people.
 
So do you think it's stupid that people have to get a driver's license to drive a car? I would say that, even though it isn't in the American Constitution, mobility is a "human right". But if you are too dumb to pass the driver's test, then there is nothing stopping you from walking. Likewise, if you are dumb enough to fail a handgun safety course (doesn't have to be a hard test), then maybe you should just have the right to "bear" a knife or a stick (which are by definition arms, btw). Guns are dangerous in the hands of stupid people, as has been agreed upon here, just like cars are dangerous in the possession of stupid people.
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How do you feel about "literacy" tests for voting? How about when the ones they give to Black people are in Sanskrit or Aramaic?

By the way, tell me what I need to do to move back to Chicago with my handguns, LAWFULLY...
 
I am all for literacy tests for voting. Hell, I'm for IQ tests for voting. I don't really understand what you mean about "black people". If they are American, they get a test in english. I would think it would be a happy compromise to remove all limitations on what you can own as long as you can pass a basic test in how to safely own them. If I can prove that I know how to keep my finger off the trigger, I should be able to have a rocket launcher, same as if I can prove I know the laws and consequences of auto laws, then I can have a Ferrari.
 
There is no test for one having a right. A right is yours whether you know how to use it or not. Of course, in a country like our own, should you screw up while using that right you can be criminally and or civilly punished.

By the way, driving or use of the government's roads is not a right, it is a privilege, just as is hunting and fishing in most places.
 
like communism, it's a beautiful idea on paper, Keeleon. In practice, it becomes messy...

IIRC, we used to give polling tests (and I know we had a "poll tax"). Such were used to "disenfranchise" freed blacks.

Might sound like a complete hijack, but I just recently read that Arkansas changed the laws on tattoo apprenticeships: now they've got some sort of advisory board. Among whom is NOBODY who has any experience in body art (artists are having to explain EVERYTHING to these folks). Apply the same idea to gun safety tests...

You'ld most likely end up with tests designed by folks that had no clue about firearms safety, or who have an agenda. Or are administered by foks with an agenda (I know for a fact one of the DMV workers who used to do the motorcycle road test would routinely fail people for imaginary infractions). Suddenly, nobody is "safe" to own a gun...

You can have liberty, or you can have safety. Given the choice, I'll take liberty every time.
 
Has anyone ever been to a comercial indoor range where the employees monitor the shooters well, not being obnixious, but truly observing and helping with safety?
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There is a particular range in OKC (off of I40 by White Water) where I have been on occasion. The employees are usually too busy being gun snobs out on the floor to go into the range area. :D
 
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The worst gun safety infractions I see are on the trap/skeet ranges.
 
Must be something in the water.

Today I was at the Cabela's in Dundee, Michigan purchasing a shotgun for an upcoming pheasant hunt in South Dakota later this year.

After I filled out the 4473, a guy in his mid-30's approaches the gun counter/case, begins asking the salesman behind the counter about various 9mm pistols and handles several of them as the conversation progresses. After being handed the third or fourth pistol, the guy cycles the slide of the pistol without paying any attention to the chamber area or at least checking it, turns the muzzle towards himself, finger on the trigger and begins peering down the barrel as if examining it. About five seconds into this "examination", he accidentally/unintentionally 'dry fired' the gun and jumped at the unexpected 'snap' of the hammer falling and striking the firing pin. The salesman watched this occur, said nothing after it happened and actually handed the guy another pistol to look at.

Since my paperwork and transfer were complete, I finished paying for my shotgun and left immediately thereafter and couldn't help shaking my head in disbelief as I left. It was both funny wacthing him jump in surprise due to his own idiocy and unsettling to watch the salesman hand this bufoon another pistol after such a display of ignorance.

I am absolutely 'blown away' (hopefully, this will remain only a pun) by the unparalleled stupidity exhibitted by those handling guns around me lately.

Must be something in the water.....:scrutiny:

GS
 
It was both funny wacthing him jump in surprise due to his own idiocy and unsettling to watch the salesman hand this bufoon another pistol after such a display of ignorance
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Sighhhhhhh. The customer is NOT always right. Little things like that are a gigantic decider on where I shop for firearms and related items. I personally like Sportsman's Warehouse over pretty much anywhere else. If there is one near you I recommend you visit soon. The guys behind the gun counter are professional and I have yet to run in to a single "gun snob". They even sel Keltecs :)
 
Thats pretty bad, and surprisingly you handled it very well. I would have blown up at the guy bigtime after that last comment

"what the hell do you mean I should assume your doing the right thing!!, how about you assume the next time you or your wife sweeps me that I'm going to not only sweep you but defend myself!"

lol
 
So do you think it's stupid that people have to get a driver's license to drive a car? I would say that, even though it isn't in the American Constitution, mobility is a "human right".
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Legally it's not. There is no legally-established "right" to drive an automobile. A driver's license is not being licensed for a "right". It's a license for a privilege. From a legal perspective there is a vast difference between the two.

Rights can only be denied through due process of the courts (e.g. convicted felons are denied their right to own weapons, convicted murderers are denied their right to freedom and potentially their right to life); they cannot be denied based on failing a test.

As much as I do agree that people should take some sort of formal or informal course (I learned from my father and from a couple of ex-military/LEO friends of the family), requiring a course is simply not possible from a legal perspective without raising other, much larger, issues. It is a very bad legal precedent to set to allow any right to become contingent upon passing a test. It would open the door to abuse with regard to other rights.
 
Just like test driving a car, whenever a customer wants to "look/fondle" a handgun or rifle, I always ask for their driver's license when handling a firearm.

Got one story for you:

Guy and his bud walks into the range wanting to shoot. I ask, "Have you had any handgun experience?" The Guy, makes a funny look at me like, "You kidding right? Do you think I'm a moron?" and replies with boasting pride: "I'm a Marine".

Me: "OK. That's great. I have to give a quick handgun safety test...pick out a gun to test on and let me borrow your I.D. to hold on to...since you're handling a firearm". He picks out a Glock 17. "Now, show me how to clear the weapon sir."-after handing him a Glock with two 9mm snap caps...one in the chamber and one in the mag.

The Marine was looking for the manual safety...ON A GLOCK!!!!
After sweeping me, I grabbed the pistol and said, "You've just swept me, therefore I can't let you shoot today."

Marine left with a hissy fit.

Moral of the story:
Being a Marine, doesn't make you a Glock genius. Take a basic handgun refersher course or something. There are many folks out there, from different types of gun experience.. Just got to be careful who they say they are.
 
One way my local range counteracts this kind of behavior (rather, attempts to counteract), is by asking the prospective shooters how much experience they have. If the answer is "none" or "I've been shooting a couple of times" then we politely tell them that they need to receive some level of instruction before we'll even allow them onto the range.

Sometimes they get upset, but when we explain that safety is our number one concern, and a good time for all is second, they generally get it, and come back with someone who can coach them or to sign up for a "first steps" course.

We've had a few boneheaded maneuvers but mostly people are okay.
 
I was shooting at a muzzleloading gun range. I stepped up to the firing line and brought the cock back on my flintlock, just hear the BANG and feel a clod of dirt blow up about an inch from my left foot. Some clown had "busted a cap" in his percussion gun to clear the vent, but forgot he had already loaded the thing! I just packed up my toys and never went back.
I shoot a lot at the nearby public State Park range. I try to go when the fewest people would be there. I have been swept a couple of times by inexperienced shooters beside me. But they have always responded well to my "help" in instructing them to keep it pointed downrange.
But if the parking lot is too crowded, I'll just drive right on by and go down the road to a secluded public hunting area (where I have never seen anyone else) and do a little "hunting" back in the woods by the dry creekside. There are usually some rabid feral soda cans which need dispatching. If all else fails, I shoot Colibri .22's daily in my basement range!
Jack
 
This has nothing to do with a range, but does involve a moron. Awhile back I was headed out to do some shooting a friends place. I had 7) handguns and 5) rifles. I stopped in town to get a soda and forgot to put my seatbelt back on. I was stopped waiting to make a left turn when a DPS trooper passed by and could clearly see I didn't have my seatbelt on. I made my turn and pulled over to wait for him in an unbusy area. I looked in my side mirror to see him close his door back, fiddled with the radio, looked again and the same thing. After realizing that he probably got a good look and the 50 BMG seatbelted in the passenger seat when he passed, I put my right hand over the steering wheel and my left out of the window. Looked back in the mirror to see him running up to my truck. From out of view behind me, he asks me to exit the vehicle, which I promptly do. Then he precedes to ask me the normal questions, do you have any weapons or drugs? So I tell him NO drugs just a few guns, at this point he asks to see the guns. Over to the passenger side we go and open both doors, the first thing he sees is the 50 and goes into a slight panic. He ask what I had that gun for and I told him cause I always wanted, so I bought it. Under the 50, I had a super blackhawk, which from where I stood could see the brass in the cylinder (I never leave empties in my guns). I mention that the 44 might be loaded, but no response from him. He unbuckles the 50 and rolls it to see the serial number and at the bottom portion of my ticket he wrote "50 BMG State Arms Rebel Ser. # 351". I signed my ticket and left. I have never seen someone react like that before or since. Makes me wonder about some law enforcement officers.
 
Is that gun clear?"

"Yeah"

"Well how exactly am I supposed to know that a cocked and unlocked 1911 is clear when I get swept with it?"

"You should just assume I'm doing the right thing."
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My first thought was, clear as the day is long, my Drill Sergeant's voice ringing through the years."You ASSUME?!?!? When you assume, you risk makin' an ass of U an' ME! You make an ass outa' yourself if you want to. You don't even want to RISK making an ass out of me! Don't assume. KNOW. "

I also remember another NCO later in my Army career say "Assumption is the Mother of all Screw-ups. You and Assumption plan on having any screw-ups? Stay away from her, she's bad news........."
 
I am all for literacy tests for voting. Hell, I'm for IQ tests for voting. I don't really understand what you mean about "black people". If they are American, they get a test in english. I would think it would be a happy compromise to remove all limitations on what you can own as long as you can pass a basic test in how to safely own them. If I can prove that I know how to keep my finger off the trigger, I should be able to have a rocket launcher, same as if I can prove I know the laws and consequences of auto laws, then I can have a Ferrari.
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Traditionally, "literacy" tests are used to EXCLUDE Black people from voting, and are traditionally given in a language presumed not to be commonly spoken by Black people in that general area. This is neither obscure, nor ancient history. In fact, it took place in my mother's lifetime and almost certainly in my own. Perhaps you have trouble distinguishing between "rights" and "privileges".

By the way, you still haven't told me what I need to do in order to LAWFULLY move to Chicago with my handguns. Could it be that you've already admitted the virtually UNLIMITED potential for mischief inherent in "proficiency tests", registration, and yes "literacy tests"?
 
charleyfoxtrot, I have rented and shot there a few times. It adds something to a business trip to OKC :p

I did sort of wonder when I saw a guy there doing fast draws from the holster. But I didn't say anything to the employees as he was in plain sight of the window into the firing lanes. And since the holster was vertical, he swept nobody except himself.

Oh, and he was fast with that ol' sixgun.

Bart Noir
 
Being a Marine doesn't make you a Glock genius. Take a basic handgun refersher course or something. There are many folks out there, from different types of gun experience.. Just got to be careful who they say they are.
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In 1983, I took an Advanced Pistol class at Chapman Academy. One of my classmates was a Marine Captain, who was using a Beretta Model 92 in anticipation of the military switch to the M9. During one of the assault courses that involved climbing a stairway to the top of a wall, his pistol jammed. While attempting to clear the jam, he swept the entire class and instructor staff.

The sheer volume and intensity of the ensuing dressing-down delivered by Ray Chapman was simply amazing! I've never seen one of the Marine Corp's finest so meek and mild... :eek:
 
I have seen a few people mention that they go out in the middle of nowhere on public property to shoot instead of traditional ranges. Is anyone familiar with the laws in Texas on doing this?
 
California, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey and New York would have a "safety" course that nobody from Delta Force or GSG9 could pass, COUNT ON IT.
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new york (in my county) has no safety course to get a ccl. each county has its own rules, and i believe closer to the city they have courses mandated.
 
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