Another take on the AR vs AK debate
- Thread starter Davionmaximus
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Chalk61, here are the facts, not as you would like them to be.
"I've heard plenty of U.S. soldiers complain about the M-16, espically Vietnam Vets at all stages of the war"
In Early vietnam the AR-15 was issued to the south Vietnamese who loved it, the M-14 was eventually replaced (it was only in service for around 12 or so years, inferior for combat, and proven so). The very first AR-15 issued to some soldiers developed problems when muddy, dirty, wet, and caked in carbon. The truth is that the US soldiers who actually had problems were never taught to maintain them, in fact they thought that the rifle never had to be oiled. The truth is that combat soldiers (infantry, SF, artillary, tankers, etc) who were taught to maintain the M-16 loved it, and to this day over 40 years later it still out performs any combat rifle available in a variety of categories, and will do so for a long time.
I have never met another combat vet (combat MOS soldiers only, you know, those who actually do the fighting, not clerks or cooks) who was ever disappointed in the M-16 or the M-4. Why is it that the countries which have had the AK want the M-16, and the M-4, over the AK, and have wanted them for many years. Again why did the Israelis use the M-4 and until it is faized out entirily it is still in use there, why do the SAS in Brittain, and the Aussie SAS use the M-4 over their own countries rifles? Simple, performance, performance, performance....
"Also the Military channel says it is the AK that has killed more people in the world, not the M-16"
Round for round fired the M-16 and its family of rifles has killed more enemy combatants than any other rifle in the world intentionally, this says alot for a rifle being held up against a cheap Russian/Chinese rifle that can be literally found under almost every rock, in every crevice, from China to Hawaii, from the arctic circle to the south pole, and has been made by the billions. The AK has killed more people worldwide (not intentionally done by soldiers), but then again every war zone has proven the fact that if you deploy alot of landmines alot of people die or are injured. When the parts dry up, when the ammo becomes scarce, the AKs will eventually be just remembered in history. If the Soviet Union made 800,000,000 M-16s and gave them for free to any country during the cold war that said that they didnt like the US the M-16 would be a legend until the end of time. If the Chinese picked up production of the M-16 afterwards and sold another 3,000,000,000 worldwide the rifle would still be in use in both armies and there would be an M-16 hidden on almost every square mile of land on the planet like the AK today. Its all about the ability for an AK to be produced for $15 each and sold for a bit more to make them go far around the world.
"many in Special Forces are now using a 6.8 update of the M-16, an loving it alot better than the 5.56"
Where do you get this information? Most special forces are using their own budgets to buy H&K 416s by choice in 5.56x45mm nothing in 6.8.
From your own words. Reference the purchase requests submitted by these units, and articles by military publications
....JUST THE FACTS PLEASE......
"I've heard plenty of U.S. soldiers complain about the M-16, espically Vietnam Vets at all stages of the war"
In Early vietnam the AR-15 was issued to the south Vietnamese who loved it, the M-14 was eventually replaced (it was only in service for around 12 or so years, inferior for combat, and proven so). The very first AR-15 issued to some soldiers developed problems when muddy, dirty, wet, and caked in carbon. The truth is that the US soldiers who actually had problems were never taught to maintain them, in fact they thought that the rifle never had to be oiled. The truth is that combat soldiers (infantry, SF, artillary, tankers, etc) who were taught to maintain the M-16 loved it, and to this day over 40 years later it still out performs any combat rifle available in a variety of categories, and will do so for a long time.
I have never met another combat vet (combat MOS soldiers only, you know, those who actually do the fighting, not clerks or cooks) who was ever disappointed in the M-16 or the M-4. Why is it that the countries which have had the AK want the M-16, and the M-4, over the AK, and have wanted them for many years. Again why did the Israelis use the M-4 and until it is faized out entirily it is still in use there, why do the SAS in Brittain, and the Aussie SAS use the M-4 over their own countries rifles? Simple, performance, performance, performance....
"Also the Military channel says it is the AK that has killed more people in the world, not the M-16"
Round for round fired the M-16 and its family of rifles has killed more enemy combatants than any other rifle in the world intentionally, this says alot for a rifle being held up against a cheap Russian/Chinese rifle that can be literally found under almost every rock, in every crevice, from China to Hawaii, from the arctic circle to the south pole, and has been made by the billions. The AK has killed more people worldwide (not intentionally done by soldiers), but then again every war zone has proven the fact that if you deploy alot of landmines alot of people die or are injured. When the parts dry up, when the ammo becomes scarce, the AKs will eventually be just remembered in history. If the Soviet Union made 800,000,000 M-16s and gave them for free to any country during the cold war that said that they didnt like the US the M-16 would be a legend until the end of time. If the Chinese picked up production of the M-16 afterwards and sold another 3,000,000,000 worldwide the rifle would still be in use in both armies and there would be an M-16 hidden on almost every square mile of land on the planet like the AK today. Its all about the ability for an AK to be produced for $15 each and sold for a bit more to make them go far around the world.
"many in Special Forces are now using a 6.8 update of the M-16, an loving it alot better than the 5.56"
Where do you get this information? Most special forces are using their own budgets to buy H&K 416s by choice in 5.56x45mm nothing in 6.8.
From your own words. Reference the purchase requests submitted by these units, and articles by military publications
....JUST THE FACTS PLEASE......
POPACAP2
Member
Ak / ar discussion
This is my first visit to this website and I love the discussions. I like it so much, I joined! There is much to say about both of these fine platforms. There are also other fine weapons: FN-FAL, SKS, etc. The real deal is this, if the zombies come, we will all grab whatever is closest in order to fight our way to the rest. And each will , in all probability, work just fine.
This is my first visit to this website and I love the discussions. I like it so much, I joined! There is much to say about both of these fine platforms. There are also other fine weapons: FN-FAL, SKS, etc. The real deal is this, if the zombies come, we will all grab whatever is closest in order to fight our way to the rest. And each will , in all probability, work just fine.
FlyinBryan
Member
ya, and those of us with the ar's will shoot the zombies that get within 500 yards, then if any get through, the ak guys can shoot them when they get within about 50 yds.
Yeah, but when the zombies get in close, the buttstock on your AR will break the first time you whack one of those stinkin undead corpses upside the head and everyone knows that AK's work better with brains stuck in the action.
That was the deciding factor for me. I can't abide a gun that might not function after running through a zombie.
That was the deciding factor for me. I can't abide a gun that might not function after running through a zombie.
FlyinBryan
Member
lol, good one elmer.
when the zombies get close ima take off running, or at least walking fast till they are about 500 yards again. then stop, build a bench, have some dinner, then shoot them at 400.
zombies are pitifully slow.
they walk like the dead.
when the zombies get close ima take off running, or at least walking fast till they are about 500 yards again. then stop, build a bench, have some dinner, then shoot them at 400.
zombies are pitifully slow.
they walk like the dead.
Get both, make up your own mind.
Seriously.
Seriously.
sarduy
Member
welcome to THR
hehehe have you ver see an AK in action at 500 yards...? because i have, and to be honest, i don't want to be the zombies (slow walking) when a guy with a fine optic in he's AK is shooting my way at 500 yards. The accuracy problem with the AK is...
1. The iron sight aren't the best (and yet some people shoot it very accurate)
2. The user is used to the US-peep sight, and find the ak sight useless.
3. The user is used to the "recoil" of the AR and ca't recover from the recoil of an AK as easy while shooting...making the shots unaccurate.
4. The user keep shooting the surplus ammo that was found in a farm from 1960
hehehe that's a good one
flyboy1788
Member
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Pshhh... I dont need my rifle to be a club, I have a world war one trench knife
I'd argue both have their merits and limitations. Period.
I've heard stories going around the battalion of AKs dug up from caches covered with half-rotted old tarps, taken back to the FOB and without any cleaning fired through many magazines of captured 7.62x39mm ammo without issues. Perhaps its because I've only handled an AK a few times, but I found its sights being too close together to be semi-awkward and magazine changes to take some getting used to. That being said I like the AK's reliability and could conceivably train through my shortcomings with it.
The AR family being very modular and versatile, especially with the rail systems that the flattop variants now carry and it's tack driving accuracy (especially its DMR variants like the SAM-R, SPR, and M110) are winners in my book. Plus I've trained on AR variants since boyhood and since I joined the military at 17 eight years ago. I am aware, however, that the rifle does require good cleaning and regular maintenance to preclude the possibility of jamming (a perfect example thereof were tales I've heard regarding the 507th Maintenance Company of Jessica Lynch's tale).
So, again I am a fan of both weapons and have a fair awareness of the capabilities and limitations of both families of rifle.
I've heard stories going around the battalion of AKs dug up from caches covered with half-rotted old tarps, taken back to the FOB and without any cleaning fired through many magazines of captured 7.62x39mm ammo without issues. Perhaps its because I've only handled an AK a few times, but I found its sights being too close together to be semi-awkward and magazine changes to take some getting used to. That being said I like the AK's reliability and could conceivably train through my shortcomings with it.
The AR family being very modular and versatile, especially with the rail systems that the flattop variants now carry and it's tack driving accuracy (especially its DMR variants like the SAM-R, SPR, and M110) are winners in my book. Plus I've trained on AR variants since boyhood and since I joined the military at 17 eight years ago. I am aware, however, that the rifle does require good cleaning and regular maintenance to preclude the possibility of jamming (a perfect example thereof were tales I've heard regarding the 507th Maintenance Company of Jessica Lynch's tale).
So, again I am a fan of both weapons and have a fair awareness of the capabilities and limitations of both families of rifle.
ARNETT44
Member
In 1972 my Uncle Sam handed me a M-16, I learned how to shoot it, clean it and sleep with it. I loved that rifle and will always have one. It's kind of like your first rumble in the back seat. Something to always remember.I guess if Comrade Bresnicsky had handed me a AK, I would feel the same. But he didn't, so my first loyality will always be the AR over the AK. Not to say I dont have a few of each and really do appreciate the simple and rugged design from that old Tank commander, but maybe for the same reason my dad swears that his first choice will be that old M1 handed to him in 1943 will be his favorite over anything else.
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