Answering LE's 'questions' at a traffic stop

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...in a galaxy far, far away...

Good one!

A few years later, now in college, after visiting my girlfriend (now my lovely wife) in Columbus I took a short cut down and alley in my rusted out Nova. ( Iloved that old car, drove it til it died as a 2d LT on Active Duty!) I went down the alley fast and came out at the street flying and bottomed out... right in fornt of a Columbus cop. Sparks flew and I barely made the turn without taking out some parking meters. Well of course I got pulled over.

The cop asked me if I knew what the speed limit in an alley was and I honestly said no. He asked why I was in Columbus (Toledo address on my license) I told him I got to school in Athens, and was visitng my Honey. I aslo told him I'm sorry and can barely afford school and gas. He chewed me out and let me go. I think its best to eat the Crow laid before you when pulled over and not give them an attitude. And if you get a ticket...take it like man.
 
my rusted out Nova. ( Iloved that old car, drove it til it died as a 2d LT on Active Duty!)


:what: Whoa! A Chevy Nova made 2nd LT?!?! Whooda thunk!


So, since it died on active duty, did it get a proper military burial?


attachment.php




:D
 
While we're on the topic...last time I got a ticket it was at a big-bust-type-of-deal...you know, where they pull everyone over while standing on the side of the road with 10 police cars. Well, I had the pleasure of getting to know a couple TPD officers for a few moments while they wrote me a speeding ticket. I chatted with the one who was writing my ticket...she said no one gets out of these types of tickets...5 miles an hour over or 20...makes no difference. EVERYONE GETS ONE she said. While she was writing me a ticket, a couple other officers pulled over a guy in a Chevy Blazer...he was headed the opposite way on this 4 lane divided highway and was about 15 feet away from me when he was pulled over b/c I was in the median as well...we were pretty much sitting driver side window to driver side window. He asked for a warning and the officer writing his ticket said nope, everyone gets a ticket. The offender proceeded to pull out his badge and held it up just over the rolled down window. You know what happens next...they BS for a second and the guy drives off without a ticket.

:banghead: :cuss: :fire:

You play, you get burned...that's cool. I paid my fine and was on my way. But what is the explanation for the Blazer guy? Officer discretion? According to all of the officers out there that day, everyone was supposed to get a ticket.

Travis
 
I needed some electrical work......cost me a few hundred dollars from an electrician.

Same electrician re-wired his contractor buddies garage for nothing. :cuss:

How dare he!! :fire:
 
Steve,

The electrician is not an instrument of the state, under which whose laws every citizen should enjoy equal protection or prosecution. The constitution specifically enjoins "classes" or nobility to which the laws do not apply.

-z
 
Steve, that's a frightening attitude coming from someone who is supposed to enforce the law.

The only way I can understand a police officer having special treatment for committting traffic infractions is that they are on duty and responding to a call/involved in a pursuit that requires them to break the traffic laws. Letting an off-duty officer get away with the offense in a situation wherein everyone else is ticketed without exception is wrong.

Had you proposed that the officer had a valid excuse, I may have bought that argument. Instead, you imply that it is okay for LEO "buddies" to let each other get away with offenses that they gleefully cite others for because the enforcement of law is similar to commercial transactions. I'm not sure if I should be disgusted or disturbed. A little of both, I think.
 
Now that I think about my post, it was a bit OT from the original "answering LEO questions"...I do apologize.

However, I think it apparent the officer did not have a valid excuse for breaking the law when he was pulled over...otherwise, he would have stated he was on official business as soon as he was pulled...or the officers could have easily called in to the dept to verify his story.

Suprisingly (or not, depending on how you look at it), I've had a number of LEO's respond exactly as Steve did...their view is that the badge can be their get out of jail card when necessary.:barf:

On the other hand, there are greater injustices in the world. I won't lose sleep at night, but it does bother me that other officers are not repulsed by these types of events.

Travis
 
Of the two times I've been pulled over, I was polite to the officer both times. I answered his questions concisely and did not lie ("...not a lie, an omission").

What irked me the first time is that the cop lied about how fast I was going. I'll be the first to admit when I do something wrong or make a mistake or whatever, but I WILL NOT admit to something I DID NOT DO. The first cop (Highway Patrol I think) said I was doing 60 in a 40. Well, I WAS doing 50 because some older guy in a nice car was SPEEDING AND WEAVING. He ended up on my bumper and I wanted to get out of his way for fear he'd clip me on his way to swerve around me into the median or something. Naturally, I (the kid with high school tags and a crappy car) get pulled over, not the person that was causing a safety hazard. He reduced it to 49/40, I paid my $50 and got two points on my license. I would have said something in court, even as young as I was, but the judge was female and HORRIBLY sexist. But I digress....

The second time I got pulled for doing 51 in a 35. Once again, the cop made this up. I drive a manual. On flat roads, I shift to 5th gear when I get to 45mph without fail. Not only did I look at the speedometer when I saw the headlights behind me (before the blues came on), but I was still in 4th gear (< 45mph). The rest of that story is known as "The Bad Night" and is classified :uhoh: I was totally polite and respectful to the cop, and he was nice to me (except for the half joking wise ??? comment that was actually funny). I think that answering his questions is the only thing that kept The Bad Night from being worse.

I deal with LEOs frequently in my line of work, and most of them are pretty good guys (or gals). I could never be a beat cop simply because if it were my job to hide in the bushes and then pull people over for driving too fast...well, I'd have to jump off a bridge or something. Respond to crimes, great. Help people, awesome. Catch dangerous criminals, fantastic. Give poor college guy a speeding ticket for 5mph over because you have nothing else to do - p!ss off.

Bottom line: be polite, tell the truth (or most of it anyway), don't break any major laws, and the most cops will usually treat you decently.
 
I needed some electrical work......cost me a few hundred dollars from an electrician.

Same electrician re-wired his contractor buddies garage for nothing.

How dare he!!


:what:


Bizarre.


Steve, you aren't going to win any converts with THAT sorry exuse for logic.


If you are trying to convince the cop haters that they are right, you're doing fine.
 
I went to CA for my wife's dad's funeral and got stopped for 52 in a 35.

I asked to see the radar gun and it said what he said.

When I got back to NE I entered a plea of not guilty by declaration and paid the $136 bail, which is also the amount of the fine.

I fought the cite on two fronts:

a. I was driving under the basic speed law pursuant to CA statute and my speed was safe for conditions.

b. A motion to dismiss based on the fact that the officer was on church property when he scanned me in violation of the Separation Clause.

All I got back in the mail was a letter that stated that I had been found not guilty by declaration and that the bail in the amount of $136 had been ordered returned.

They did not tell me on what aspect of the challenge I won but I tend to believe that the reason they took so long to get back to me was because they were passing my motion to dismiss around the office for a good laugh.

You can win if you try. You will always lose if you expend no effort. That's what they want. Pay us the money and then suffer higher (mandatory) insurance fees for the next three years.
 
Came up with an answer of my own to my previous post.

Justashooter said:

Of he to whom much is given, much is expected.

To which I can only reply: Exactly!

If society hands you power of arrest backed up with a gun on your hip, particularly in the context of depriving me of the same option, then society expects behavior on a level with Ceaser's wife, i.e. above reproach. Abuse of power in such circumstances amounts to corruption in my book, and any LEO who takes their job seriously should be "policing the police", and keeping an eye open for such activity.

Any individual perpetrating such activity does NOT belong in law enforcement. That's getting that type of job for the wrong reasons, and when discovered, the proper response is: You're Fired. Period. Carried to an extreme, we get criminal charges filed such as what happened to Rampart CRASH or the Riders in Oakland.

Are we so short of LEO applicants that we can't screen out this type of personality during the hiring evaluation proccess? Abusive attitudes like this encourage the "us vs. them" divide between LE and the community it operates in. This problem seems to be getting slowly worse, with the ultimate expression being expressed as "living in a police state". LEO's are supposed to be ordinary citizens, ideally members of the community the work in. Somewhere along the line we lost that connection, and as a result LEO's now rank as "super-citizens", with wide-ranging exceptions to various laws that apply to the rest of the population, the PRK's drop-test extortion racket that restricts gun sales here being a particularly egregious example.

I don't like it, but at the moment I have no suggestions about how to fix it other than emphasizing that authority is not to be abused. Another big problem is the method I've heard about detailing what a field-LEO's job is. To wit, enforcing POLICY, (Meaning which laws to enforce, and which to ignore.) as determined by politicians, rather than strictly enforcing the law. This is what got me in trouble with the Sheriff, as the deputies had received extra training specifically to address drug enforcement, so I'm presuming this indicates a mandate or orders to look for drug use always regardless of the circumstances of the original stop. Part of my hostility issues with LE was knowing that any given beat cop whom I run afoul of was NOT hassling me maliciously, they are just doing their job as outlined by their superiors. That made me feel bad for snarling at individuals on a case-by-case basis, but not bad enough to prevent me from doing it.

Since my silly arrest, I have never had any hints of anything that sets off the alarms, so I've never again raised my voice at a LEO. However, knowing that I am PREPARED too changes a bunch of my initial reactions to a stop. Nervousness no longer applies, and this seems to prove out my theory that "the best way to get caught is to act guilty." Also, knowing that I can tap into the hostility should I desire too means that it doesn't snap on immediately if I get stopped, (Like it used too, a few years ago.) which is another red flag to LEO hunches.

The best proof is in the following story, where-in a goodly chunk of my collection came "within reach" of arbitrary confiscation. THAT should have had me really nervous, as the collection MATTERS, monetary value aside. It didn't get me uptight, though, which I think is a MAJOR improvement. Lets me keep my cool with no problem, which keeps me out of jail. That I can live with.

And for LEO's here at The High Road, I would like to specifically re-iterate that I no longer open an encouter with a big bucket of hostility. (I definitely USED too.) I have the greatest respect for the individuals in LE, and I'm glad you're there manning that "Thin Blue Line" that helps to keep civilizatio, well, civil. I greatly appreciate that. Keep up the good work.


The latest Adventure: Not exactly a traffic stop, but what could have been a really unpleasant encouter for me if I had run into a guy who felt like being An Authoritarian Institutional Example.

We'll call this one "What NOT to leave in the truckbed after a High Road Shoot, Or, Cool! San Carlos cops are reasonable guys!"

So I'm up in San Carlos, another one of those affluent Bay Area cities full of big houses and nice cars. Need to talk to Rick, the guy who's making it possible for me to pay bills lately. (He scrubbed his house down and re-built it, and I've been building some custom furniture/cabinetry, and remodeling the upstairs bathroom. Been working up there for months.)

Me 'n a buddy go by Rick's house. I'm thinking I'm going to talk to Rick's wife about scheduling a materials pick-up, and pinning her down on the last details of the fireplace mantle I'm building for her, net time cost of about 20 minutes. So I leave my friend to hang out in my beater old pick-up truck whilst I talk to the lady.

Naturally, I run long shooting the breeze about artistic details, and I volunteered to repair a cracked table leg. That's going to need glue, which is out in the truck, which is parked in front of the house next door. So I wander out front, screw-gun in hand and wearing a toolbelt, to discover 2-3 police cruisers situated with my truck in the spotlights, and my friend looking very uncomfortable in the passenger seat. Turns out he's been getting grilled by cops for the past few minutes, but not telling them anything beyond "I'm waiting for my friend to get done working." Naturally, his lack of an answer to questions like "What's your name" has the cops a bit irked, but I know none of this when I arrive on the scene.

H_R_G-[cue LOUD, irate, accusing voice.] "Hey! What're you doing to my truck?!"

Spokes-cop- "Could you put that down?" (Referring to the screw-gun. I lay it down swiftly as I walk towards him.)

H_R_G-[Still irate.] "What the heck's going on here?"

"Someone called about a suspicious vehicle."

[irritated disbelief.] "What!? That doesn't make any sense. The truck's only been here about an hour, and all the neighbors know who's it is, I've talked to 'em. I've been working up here for weeks! (All true.) Who called?"

"Is the truck yours?"

[cue normal, un-irritated voice.] "Yeah, but the registration's still in (Friend I bought it from's) name, cuz I got insurance, and paid all the fees, but I haven't smogged it yet onnaccounta I ran outta cash. I gotta get paid so I can finish it." (Again, true.)

He asks for my ID, and we have a conversation about why I'm here, and who I'm working for. This goes fine and dandy, he's being polite and getting the same from me. Then comes the kicker, where-in things get interesting.

"I noticed there's a lot of shells in the truck-bed. Are there any guns in the truck?"

HOOO-boy, heavy question! (Which I had anticipated, however.) This was TWO DAYS after the last THR Bay Area Shoot. There were no less than FOURTEEN handguns locked in the beefy Knaack work-box in the back of the truck! This had the potential to be the headline news about suburban gun-running in tomorrow's paper. One of those "Neighbors shocked at local arsenal found by police"-type of stories we keep reading about.

But only if the cop wanted to be an utter snotwad about it. All the guns were legal, registered to me, in cases, unloaded, and all were under lock and key. I'm a collector, so I don't want ANY of my guns getting snatched, particularly the $1200 .45 Broomhandle Mauser and the $800 custom 7.62 x 39 double derringer that live in the same box! I know the rules, and I follow them.

The brass was in the bed because my accessory box had tipped over right before I got home. I'd cleaned up the stuff but missed a lot of loose brass, and then gotten distracted by a telephone call (Hate that machine.) and promptly forgot to unload the weapons. Idiot.

[Still pleasant-voiced.] "Guns? Well, yeah, but they're not IN the truck, there's a double-handful of handguns locked in the job-box. I just went to a big group shoot at the range with members of the Internet forum I hang out on. (I fish out my keys, and hold one up.) There's twel-...no, fourteen of 'em in there. Would you like to take a look at them?" [cue big cat-got-the-canary grin.]

[Slightly bewildered.] Uh...yeah. Could you take a seat over there for a minute, please?" He points at the curb a few feet in front of the truck as he takes the key.

"Certainly. You got any questions, just ask." I drop my tool-belt on the screw-gun on the way by, and go relax. He pops open the job-box, and spends a few minutes dropping mags and racking slides. There's a little confusion going on as I listen to him comment on the guns to his partner/back-up on the other side of the truck. It's understandable, as they're looking at some real odd-ball guns like the Astra 600, and trying to decipher the lack of a removable magazine in the Steyr-Hahn 1912. The 1911 had no slide and barrel, and of course the Broomhandle and The Monster derringer are pretty odd also. No-one asks any specifics about the guns, however, until Mr. Spokes-cop shuts the box and then turns to me sitting on the curb.

"So all of these are yours, and they're legal...?"

"Yup. All legal, and registered to me. I shoulda unloaded 'em on the weekend after the shoot."

We then go over details, like what range we were at, I made sure he got my address correct, he reminded me I shouldn't be hauling 'em around, (Which I agreed with.) this while I'm sitting at the curb and he's kind of looming over me so I have to look up at his face. All smiles and fun until he asks:

"Can I look in the truck?"

[irritated surprise] "What?! [surly] NO!" I get cross at this point.

"Now, you've been being straight with me. You don't have anything to hide...?"

[Irate again.] "NO I don't have anything to hide, but NO you can't root around in my truck. Last time I let that happen I wound up with a colossal MESS! No SIR."

"So I can't look in the truck?" He advances a couple steps and looms a little taller. I figure he's trying to get me into parent-kid mode. I glare at him right in the eye.

[Anger.] "NO."

"So you're all above board...?"

[SNARL.] "YES. I gave you the KEY without ASKING. [Clenched teeth.] Spelled out my ADDRESS..." I give him a pissed-off stare.

"You're SURE I can't look in the truck?"

I turn on a "What, are you STOOPID?"-expression, cock my head to one side, and wait a second before I reply.

[Contempt/disdain.] "No. You can't." I've had it with this crap by now, and I stand up. I'm done with co-operation. I scoop up my tool-belt, and hold out my hand for my keys.

He hands them over. "Be sure to take those out of the truck tonight..."

[Civil/polite.] "Of course. I'm a collector. I don't want them stolen. By the way, thanks for not confiscating the lot. I'm going to write this up on the forum. We talk about things like this, and it's good that I can write up a positive story about cops who are reasonable guys."

"Uh, ok."

He didn't swipe my guns. He gets high praise for that. I woulda had a heck of a time getting 'em back, and he probably would've made points at work for getting my "arsenal off the streets", although the media would have glossed over and ignored the subsequent legal recovery of the guns.

So for a guy who wrote the vile-est-toned thread about LEO's a couple years back, I can deal with 'em without getting thrown in jail, even under semi-dire circumstances. I have the solid confidence to know where I stand, and not get bullied into compromising my principals. AND I don't hate the guy for trying, he's just doing his job. But he did it with the neccessary degree of respect, which lets me keep my self control.

Well, Sven, how's THAT for anger management? ;)
 
Geez........lighten up a bit guys.

First I can't wear my hair a certain way (high & tight).........

then I can't wear BDU's.............:rolleyes:





PS. The story was made up, as I do my own electrical work :neener:
 
One more small question for Steve and other LEO's ...... do you find your attitude to drivers/people in a stop situation varies according to their age?? And/or maybe too their vehicle age/type??

I am only curious. Does the real young young guy in his beat up Ford truck invoke any difference in response to .... shall we say .... an ole phart of my age (far too close to 60) .... who still looks somewhat ''eccentric'' and has all the white hair syndrome ... and maybe drives a much newer Chevy Silverado.

Only wondering .........:)
 
I have been stopped several times and most of the time being plesent and forth coming with the officer has gotten me out of trouble. For the other times family members who are dispatchers save me and if that doesn't work my lawyer. Useually though kindness and respect gets me out of traffic trouble.

My rules be very nice to the officer. Keep my hands in plain view. Ask permission to get anything including my license reg and insurance while informing the officer were it is located. And reach slow once permission is granted. I do this for one simple reason they are for lack of a better term scared when they pull me over. If I can make them feel more at ease it goes better for everyone. I will however refuse to answer any questions that will incriminate me , or allow them to search me.

It's all a judgement call though. Everything except keeping your hands in plain view and not making sudden movements.
 
Cute, Steve.
But I wasn't talking about your haircut, fashion sense or imagination. I was talking about the apparent attitude towards the law.
 
I've been hassled by cops during a traffic stop.

Funny thing is, when I was younger (& much more politically ignorant) I mainly had good experiences (if you call getting pulled "good") with cops. This was when I was always short on cash & riding with expired tags or expired inspection stickers, etc... Not too many problems. I'd get pulled, they'd write me a ticket & I was on my way.

Later on in life things seemed to change. Most notable is a SC State Trooper who pulled me over at 9:30 a.m. (roughly - it was around that time) for failing to come to a complete stop when entering a divided highway. I was pretty sure I did stop completely. In any event he writes me a warning ticket (thus legally concluding the stop) then hands me a consent to search form. I tell him no thanks & he then tells me if I don't sign it he'll call the drug dog & impound my car for a few days while they search it. So I sign. Filed a complaint with his department & they said they had a hearing but refused to tell me what happened.

May not seem like a big deal but I was detained against my will while my possessions were searched against my will. The cop was polite as hell about it but his excuse that I was doing my part to help with the war on drugs left me a little cold.

Since then I've learned a few things; cops cannot detain you after they hand you a ticket, even a warning ticket. The courts have stated that the issuance of a ticket officially concludes the traffic stop. Also they cannot detain you while sending fora drug sniffing dog. The courts have said this was an unlawful detention, especially when they're doing it because you denied them permission to search.

& lastly I don't blame the cop so much as he was fairly young. I blame the system that's in place that allows &/or encourages this type of behavior. Y'all may not think a 45 minute wait while you're stuff is being searched is a big deal, but I do. Especially when there was no probable cause outside of my appearance & having out of state plates.

So while at least 50% of the cops I've dealt with have been polite that's no excuse for disrespecting anyone's Rights.

Now about the preferential treatment that cops get, from cops & businesses...

If I see a sign that says "complimentary coffee, sandwiches, etc... for police officers" I take my business elsewhere after informing the onwers as to why. If I see a cop accepting these things then I either mention that it's inappropriate behavior to him or his boss. Doesn't usually accomplish much but I feel like I tried.

Courts though... Say a cop pulls you over. You deny speeding & he insists you were doing 60 in a 50. Should be dismissed as it's one persons word against another right? Nope. Cops usually get preferential treatment from the courts on matters such as this. In essence it shifts the burden of proof from the state to the citizen.

As to the electrical contractor analogy...that's not only misguided, it's off base. It'd have been more correct to compare an electrician doing work for free to a cop hanging out off the clock in uniform at his favorite convenience store. Both would have been examples of rendering services for free that normally elicits a charge from the service provider.

But cops letting cops skate on traffic tickets would be better compared to a store owner letting one person he knows shop lift while making a citizens arrest on another shoplifter whom he doesn't know.

All of these point to a gap between the police & the citizen. It's an attitude being taught, if not in the acedemies then by word of mouth & dee from one cop to another. It's one of the reasons I wouldn't be oppossed to disbanding organized police forces altogether.

I've said it before: cops are no different than non-cops. About 5% are really bad, 5% are really good & the remaining 90& falling to varying degrees in between. But the system is flawed & I fear fatally. Most cops, whether ood, bad or in between, enforce whatever laws they are told told without regard to whether or not said laws conflict with the constitution.

Here's an example: how many cops on this board would arrest me if you found an Ar-15 in my car that was made last year & had a telescoping stock & bayonet lug on it? Yet the AWB that you'd enforce is clearly contradictory to the constitution. Same with respect to full auto weapons or sawed off shotguns: the NFA is the easiest of all gun control laws to have thrown out because it conflicts with the 2nd amendment directly. But odds are most of y'all would enforce these laws. & don't get me started on laws requiring a permit to carry a gun. But again, y'all would probably enforce thos elaws despite constitutional conflicts.

& the most common excuse would be that the courts have said they're okay laws so we have to enforce them. Hence adding no meaning to the phrase "cop-out".

So for those of you who disbelieve that police abuses exist, you're wrong. The problem is y'all have a misunderstanding of what constitutes abuse. It's not when a cop asks me to search my car, it's when a cop thinks he has the authority to search my car w/o any concrete reason & acts accordingly. It's when a cop let's another cop go when he'd have busted a non-cop. It's when a cop enforces any law that interferes with my Rights. That's the abuse & it's not so much because all cops are bad; it's because the system they are taught in & take orders from is flawed to put it mildly.
 
But cops letting cops skate on traffic tickets would be better compared to a store owner letting one person he knows shop lift while making a citizens arrest on another shoplifter whom he doesn't know.
Not really, as a shop owner could do so ethically.

Would be more akin to a cashier letting his friends shoplift without the owner's consent.
 
So for those of you who disbelieve that police abuses exist, you're wrong. The problem is y'all have a misunderstanding of what constitutes abuse. It's not when a cop asks me to search my car, it's when a cop thinks he has the authority to search my car w/o any concrete reason & acts accordingly. It's when a cop let's another cop go when he'd have busted a non-cop. It's when a cop enforces any law that interferes with my Rights. That's the abuse & it's not so much because all cops are bad; it's because the system they are taught in & take orders from is flawed to put it mildly.

I've got chicken skin:cool:


And, yes, I've had mostly negative interactions with cops.
 
Steve in Pa,
If you don't know perhaps you should seek a career outside law enforcement.

But as a general rule prior restraint based laws, such as gun control laws that deal with mere possession, are a good example. Not ony do they interfere with my Right to Arms & Right to Self Defense, but they conflict with many state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.

So let's start with gun control. Can you honestly tell me that enforcing laws concerning mere possession does not violate my Rights?
 
"While I will of course cooperate with instructions given by LE, I generally do not wish to answer any of these questions. Frankly, it's none of Joe-officer's damned buisness WHERE I am going, or what's in my car, or weather I like chicken or not. I do not have to account for my actions to any cop.

As far as I am concerned, they can charge me with something, arrest me, and try me in a court, under oath, where THEN they have the privlige of asking me questions.

Unfortunately, this attitude is as likely to land me in jail. (and thus, I usually comply with the simple questions, but do not elaborate and certinly not cop an attitude.)


What would the High Road suggest to do or say that would avoid answering the gestapo questions, but while respecting the officer as a person, and not getting thrown in jail?"


Well now...we have stopped you because we have observed you violate a section of the Vehicle and Traffic Law. Questions such as where are you going and where are you coming from are attempting to establish a reason why you might have done what you were observed doing, your knowledge of the offense you were observed doing, and help the officer decide which of the possible outcomes is warranted...verbal warning, written warning where possible, or citation. Since so many crimes are detected during traffic stops, it is also an opportunity for the officer to gauge the situation of the driver and whether any additional offenses might have just occured that require action to be taken.If you insist on being uncooperative, at a minimum don't be surprised at getting a ticket when you might have gotten a warning.


It IS our business.

We don't need probable cause to stop you. We need reasonable suspicion, which has a lower standard than PC that needs to be met.
 
We need reasonable suspicion
Not being pro or anti here ... just neutral. But ... ''reasonable'' .... oh my - there's a nebulous word. Who is to decide what is ''reasonable'' ...... ''how long is a piece of cord''??:p

Even ''suspicion'' ...... can be taken several ways.

A driver could very easily - and honestly see ''reasonable'' as ''unreasonable'' ..... particularly based on his rights, but his opinion will usually mean squat!
 
So you think everyone should be allowed to own a gun (no gun control laws).......

giving criminals, mentally disturbed people, etc access to guns??


I'm as pro-gun as anyone......but there needs to be something out there to prevent persons deemed a danger to themselves or others from having guns.

Are there crappy laws, yup. Obviously not enough people care in the state to overturn them, so your stuck with them. Don't blame the LEO for enforcing the law, blame the people you voted into office. Because your governing body as deemed it wrong to do, this, that or the other thing with a firearm......you think the LEO should just look the other way? Pick and choose what laws we wish to enforce? Why have any laws.....traffic, criminal, civil.......heck.........just wipe everything away and have a big ole wild west country. See how long that will last.

What do gun laws have to do with this thread anyway?
 
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