Any interest for smokeless powder cylinder with 209 primers for Ruger Old Army?

[Onty]

Any interest for smokeless powder cylinder with 209 primers for Ruger Old Army?

Last week I had a conversation with the lady from Howell Arms https://www.howellarms.com/ regarding manufacturing of SMOKELESS CYLINDER FOR MUZZLE-LOADING REVOLVER, using 209 shotgun primers. They have patent for it:



If we can organize group buy and have order for at least 50 cylinders to be made, either standard alloy (blue) or stainless, they will consider manufacturing them. Regarding price, I do not have it yet, but expect to be close to their conversion cylinders for 45 Colt and 45 ACP.

Please specify how many cylinders you want, and if you want blue or stainless.

I am trying also on another forums to see if there is enough interest, and once we have enough customers, I will forward list to Howell Arms.

As for other revolvers like Remington 1858 or various Colts, I would like others familiar with these revolvers to take a lead. Again, minimum order for each specific revolver is 50 pcs.

 

[arcticap]

Onty,
While I would like more details, I think that this is a great idea for a group buy.
The cylinder represents what C&B revolver shooting is all about, except with all of the benefits of using smokeless, yet without needing to reload cartridge cases or to buy factory ammo.
Less fouling should promote more accuracy and less time cleaning, and a person can still easily shoot round balls.
Cartridge conversion cylinders are great, but using them is not C&B shooting while using this type of conversion is.

Since these cylinders were manufactured in the past, I wish that someone could find and post some info. about them from previous buyers.
There must be some posts or threads about it somewhere that could offer some insight into its practical use.
I wonder if Howell can provide any useful loading guidelines or info. from testing that they previously did.
If so then someone should try to get it and post it because the more info. about the cylinder the better, and it could help to get more people on board for a group buy.

If anyone can provide any info. about the ones that Howell made in the past, then I would really appreciate hearing more about it.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I think I'd personally be interested in Stainless more than blued.
Likely just 1, but I'm also thinking a guy might do well to commission a build of 50 and make a few bucks.
Seems to me a group buy of 50 ought to cost less per piece than the cylinders they are selling at retail as one offs.

 

[Onty]

Arcticap,

Yes, you are right, Howell Arms did make them before. It would be wonderful to hear first hand experience with those cylinders, especially if they were used with conicals.

Here are tests Mike Beliveau had done using ROA with black powder and Triple 7, using round ball, 225 grain round point and 255 flat point https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ruger+Old+Army+Powder+Projectile+Test . That Kaido bullet made at least 2 times more penetration in water filled jugs than round ball. It went through all 11 jugs and exited. Very impressive performance, enough for toughest wild boar.

Now, bad news for us outside of USA. Howell Arms told me that their products cannot be exported, even if I find licensed exporter. The issue is ITAR and Howell Arms company has to go through whole process. As it stands now, is not gonna happen in foreseeable future.

In that respect, I cannot participate. If somebody else wants to take over and moderate this, please feel free to do so. Sorry...

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Theres a company..maybe even a few that sell revolver nipples that use 209 primers. Just about all are from europe.Theres even some that use .22 blanks as a primer. You can also recylce the blanks or cut down .22 cases and fill with h-48 or fa-42 primer mix or the "prime-all" mix and use them with these nipples. Might even ignite hard to light powders like Buckhorn 209.

 

[woodnbow]

There was a company on eBay for a time supplying 209 adapters for ROA. I haven’t seen them in a year or two...

 

[arcticap]

There was a company on eBay for a time supplying 209 adapters for ROA. I haven’t seen them in a year or two...

Mag - Spark makes 209 nipples for the ROA that cost $90.
Scroll down to the bottom of the page: --->>> https://warrencustomoutdoor.com/mag-spark.html

This vendor is a Mag-Spark dealer and probably was the eBay seller because both are located in Cottonwood, Florida.
His site has photos of them. -->>> http://cumminsbulletsandlube.com/product_information

Archive of the eBay ad: --->>> https://picclick.com/MAG-SPARK-209-Conversion-For-RUGER-OLD-ARMY-Grease-113064710298.html

 

[woodnbow]

Mag- Spark makes 209 nipples for the ROA that cost $90.
Scroll down to the bottom of the page: --->>> https://warrencustomoutdoor.com/mag-spark.html

This vendor is a Mag-Spark dealer and may have been the eBay seller:
His site has photos of them. -->>> http://cumminsbulletsandlube.com/product_information

Yes that’s the one... if I was gonna experiment with the blackhorn 209 stuff I guess 90 bucks isn’t too bad. Swiss and OE seem to work well enough for my purposes.

 

[grter]

No No If these are the same ones I am thinking of they have no screw on caps because there is no room for them to have the screw cap with firing pin. They can only be used with very VERY underpowered loads or blow back will occur.

209 shotgun primers are very large and very hot.

There is another thread on the high road where these are explored. I don't recall which. There was someone who machined nipples for the ROA that worked with pistol primers and he discussed on the thread his experience in making the ROA work with modern primers. I believe these are used with black powder.

It can be done and has been done with pistol primers. As far as I know those who were fortunate enough to obtain a set before he stopped making them liked them a lot. I don't think his are for use with smokeless powder.

He wrote making nipples that safely contain the very large hot 209 shotgun primers in a Ruger Old Army was not practical. When I mentioned that the Ebay 209 shotgun primer pockets for the ROA were merely slide ins with no covers to be used with an anemic load to avoid blow back I was told good luck with that.

This Ebay set up is used in Great Britain as a stop gap measure to use easily available (or should I say more easily available) 209 shotgun primers and bypass their strict gun laws which make obtaining any cartridge handguns very difficult for the average person.

I had some difficulty obtaining the instructions for using these nipples and was shocked to find out that using these nipples will require you to accept very low airgun type velocities if you want to safely use 209 shotgun primers. They do not mention that inconvenient fact in their marketing.

I do like the Howell idea, a whole cylinder manufactured specifically to fully contain 209 shotgun primers. Would this be limited to just "Cowboy Loads." I don't think Cowboy Loads are bad at all however my impression is the Ruger Black Hawk Frame can handle a lot more if they would machine the cylinder out some hard core heat treated magnum rated ordinance grade steel.

I would probably use if for black powder (4f sounds neat) knowing that if I wanted to I could weigh out some good strong clean smokeless charges if I choose to.

Smokeless is very unforgiving if you make a mistake in the charge and is so much more easy to manage when packaged in a sealed cartridge case with a bullet crimped in place. Just something to consider. I still do like the idea of the Howell cylinder as an option for more flexibility.

 

[Bax2504]

I would be up for 1 of these. Maybe even 2.

 

[arcticap]

No No If these are the same ones I am thinking of they have no screw on caps because there is no room for them to have the screw cap with firing pin. They can only be used with very VERY underpowered loads or blow back will occur.

209 shotgun primers are very large and very hot.

There is another thread on the high road where these are explored. I don't recall which. There was someone who machined nipples for the ROA that worked with pistol primers and he discussed on the thread his experience in making the ROA work with modern primers. I believe these are used with black powder.

It can be done and has been done with pistol primers. As far as I know those who were fortunate enough to obtain a set before he stopped making them liked them a lot. I don't think his are for use with smokeless powder.

He wrote making nipples that safely contain the very large hot 209 shotgun primers in a Ruger Old Army was not practical. When I mentioned that the Ebay 209 shotgun primer pockets for the ROA were merely slide ins with no covers to be used with an anemic load to avoid blow back I was told good luck with that.

grter,
I'm not sure if you are correct or not.
I don't have direct knowledge about the details of these Mag - Spark 209 nipples for the ROA.
However, they may be designed with approximately the same size vent hole as regular #11 nipples.
They are designed to be used with all BP substitutes only and not smokeless.
And some people are already able to shoot Black Horn 209 powder with their ROA by using a duplex charge and percussion caps.
I'm not sure why there would be excessive blowback or that only under-powered loads could be used.
The amount of BH 209 being loaded may not produce all that much more pressure than other subs such as 777.
IMO it would really depend on the size of the flash hole inside of the Mag - Spark nipples which we can't see.
If they can't be used with a full chambers of sub. powders then there should be a disclaimer.
If there's none, then Mag-Spark could be guilty of being misleading, and liable for damages to anyone's gun that resulted or personal injuries.
They must have tested these nipples so that they wouldn't be open to lawsuits.

The Mag - Spark rifle nipple is made for magnum size rifle powder charges.
Whereas a revolver won't be loaded with that much powder.

This Ebay set up is used in Great Britain as a stop gap measure to use easily available (or should I say more easily available) 209 shotgun primers and bypass their strict gun laws which make obtaining any cartridge handguns very difficult for the average person.

I had some difficulty obtaining the instructions for using these nipples and was shocked to find out that using these nipples will require you to accept very low airgun type velocities if you want to safely use 209 shotgun primers. They do not mention that inconvenient fact in their marketing.

The Anvil 209 primer pockets for the Ruger were tested with 8 grains of Herco powder and a round ball.
There is data that suggests that less than 8 grains in a 9 mm case under a 147 grain bullet makes a +P+ load.
If one looks at the chart, the load of 5.7 grains of Herco with a 147 grain XTP produces 1120 FPS out of a 4" barrel. --->>> http://www.natoreloading.com/herco/
That's far greater than air gun velocity.

"We have tested a Ruger Old Army revolver fitted with these primer pockets and using 8 grains of Herco propelling a 143 grain, 0.454 lead ball. Note no wads or fillers were used and no over the chamber lubricants or fats were used. Critically the rammer was the standard length provided as original equipment. The ball was not be pushed any deeper into the chamber than permitted by the standard rammer." --->>> http://www.anvilconversions.co.uk/index_files/Page13768.htm

A Westlake .38 conversion that uses 209 primers has a recommended load of 3 - 3.5 grains of Herco to propel a 148 grain bullet, even though the gun has been proofed to be able to match .38 Special pressure.
Perhaps that conversion produces closer to air gun velocities. --->>> http://www.westlakeengineering.com/products/

The Mag - Spark 209 nipples are pictured below.

 

[grter]

Bill Ruger filled a ROA with Bullseye tested it and it did not explode. That does not mean it should be done.


From the Website that sells the British version of these.


"Designed to be used with CCI shotgun primers, and 0.454 lead ball. Conical bullets and 0.475 lead ball can cause increased pressures discussed below.


They do require a degree of experimentation to obtain the optimum performance. Start with a very low charge (typically 5 grains of black powder or 777) and work up. These pockets are not a substitute for a complete conversion. A revolver converted for nitro is fitted with a back pressure plate and firing pin to detonate the shotgun primers. The primers are contained such that they cannot shatter or concertina apart. The primer pockets illustrated are not constrained by a back plate. This imposes limitations on the pressures they can handle. The first sign of excessive loading is when the primer starts to concertina apart (shotgun primers have an outer case surrounding the primer). If this is experienced the spent primer can be pushed back together by tapping the hammer with a piece of wood and on subsequent shots reduce the charge to such a level to eliminate the concertina effect."

The details of using anything but low power loads are sketchy at best. Starting with 5 grains of black powder or 777 and working your way up until signs of overpressure are noted tells me a lot but there is more from people who actually have used these.

209 shotgun primers are very hot.

They are what they are but if you are looking for standard smokeless loads (or even standard black powder loads) I do not think this is the way to go.

The Howell, an entire cylinder designed to fully support 209 shotgun primers with a properly head spaced back plate, is probably the way to go it you really like 209 primers.

I don't think the Howell is a bad idea but do imagine that the potency of hot 209 primers should be taken into consideration when messing with smokeless powder.

 

[Jim Watson]

There are milder battery cup primers for .410 shotshells.
Might be worth trying if you just must push the system.

 

[45 Dragoon]

What's funny about all this is - I see posts about folks not having or seeing any reason for cartridge conversions for C&B revolvers, even though they are historically correct, but here's this post about something that I have absolutely no ( 0 ) interest in and I could care less!! The others though will all but "belittle" you for something that is historically correct !! Too funny . . .
It seems like (to me) there's a lot of components to keep up with compared to pre-loaded metallic cartridges. But hey, if it blows your dress up . . . have at it !!! Lol!

Mike

 

[grter]

That is great for you Dragoon and if I lived in a state that was not trying to compete with Great Britain for giving gun owners a hard time I would choose cartridges too. I would probably have a chuckle when looking at a thread like this.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Yessir, which is exactly why (at this point in time) I have absolutely no interest in this. If I were English, then of course, it would be of interest (if I couldn't move to America!) but, I'm not, I am an American! My forefathers risked life and fortune so that my right to protect my life, family and take back my country if needed, is protected. Today, that ability is being threatened by a party of leftists yelling for the installation of a Marxist/Socialist regime in America. God forbid . . . if this ofends anybody, . . . . then by God, it should!!!

Mike

 

[Onty]

That is great for you Dragoon and if I lived in a state that was not trying to compete with Great Britain for giving gun owners a hard time I would choose cartridges too. I would probably have a chuckle when looking at a thread like this.

Right on grter! Many folks in USA do not understand how lucky they are. For example, take a look on some countries in Asia. No firearms whatsoever. Period! The only one they could have a those airsoft peashooters.

In many European countries you have to be a hunter or compete in shooting sport in order to have a license for firearms. Yes, you can get license to be a firearm collector. But, in number of countries that means no shooting using those firearms.

How about medical exam, that, along with eye exam, blood test, ECG test, psychiatric test, they put in your hand a device to check do you have enough squeeze strength in your hand!? And in some countries, you have to do it every 4-5 years.

Now, having muzzle loading firearm, in some countries you do not need a firearm license and all those, some time grueling steps, in order to get it. Having muzzle loading firearm capable of shooting smokeless powder means you can shoot it, instead of going through another hassle in order to obtain a special license for black powder, declared as a dangerous substance; an explosive.

 

[woodnbow]

I’m a heck of a lot more interested in the Reeder .51 conversion than this item. I have considered having a spare cylinder sleeved just like this one except it would retain percussion cap ignition. Done right it would have a capacity of 12 grains of 3f and place the.457 ball about .05 under the face of the cylinder. As a target only revolver I would expect good things. But I’ve been wrong before.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Right on grter! Many folks in USA do not understand how lucky they are.

On the contrary, luck has nothing to do with it.

The God given rights enumerated in our Constitution /Bill of Rights were established as an integral part of being an American and have been protected with the blood of Americans from the beginning of our country. America was a "structured" endeavour, a purposely built Republic by brilliant men that put together the most amazing document ever written . Luck . . . was not an option.

Mike

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

What's so shameful about being interested in an option to utilize commonly available primers instead of very often hard to find percussion caps in a BP revolver?

 

[45 Dragoon]

What's so shameful about being interested in an option to utilize commonly available primers instead of very often hard to find percussion caps in a BP revolver?

Who said anything shameful?
I said i had absolutely no interest in the topic of this thread, but only after pointing out the many times others say the same thing about a discussion on conversion cyls. So, I'm not allowed to say the same? Then again, I did say if it's what you like, go for it. (Something the others don't say . . . see how much nicer I am ?)

Mike

 

[arcticap]

The dealer's ad for the Mag-Spark conversion kit states that it comes with a "special 209 primer removal tool" which suggests that
the spent primers may need to be pried off the nipple instead of being blown out by excessive blowback.

 

[Onty]

On the contrary, luck has nothing to do with it.

The God given rights enumerated in our Constitution /Bill of Rights were established as an integral part of being an American and have been protected with the blood of Americans from the beginning of our country. America was a "structured" endeavour, a purposely built Republic by brilliant men that put together the most amazing document ever written . Luck . . . was not an option.

Mike

I said "Many folks in USA do not understand how lucky they are.". I should say "Too many...". See this:

Still, if there are an estimated 55 million gun owners in the U.S., even at 5 million members the NRA would account for less than 10 percent of the gun owning community.

https://www.newsweek.com/nra-membership-5-million-members-analysis-842040

 

[Onty]

The dealer's ad for the Mag-Spark conversion kit states that it comes with a "special 209 primer removal tool" which suggests that
the spent primers need to be pried off the nipple instead of being blown out by excessive blowback.

That is one of the reasons I like 209 primers in BP revolvers. Shotgun 209 primer, if reasonable soft, and pressure high enough, will seal, and nothing will came out on back side. Cup is total opposite; it will open, or some time even partially disintegrate, and gases and debris blown back, including into mechanism.

 

[Englishmn]

I would buy one.
In response to op.

May be worth doing a vote set up as( yes, I want one or no, but I have a bunch of comments/suggestions unrelated to the stated reason for the thread.)