Anybody CCW military surplus pistols?

[BReilley]

Hi guys... so I've been thinking, I want a pistol for daily concealed carry. I want a reasonable caliber, reasonable capacity, reasonable ease of use and maintenance, so my options are of course many.

Except that I don't have the $500 for a CZ P01.

My question is, why don't I read about anybody carrying milsurp pistols? I know some people who swear by the old Star BMs and such, but for the most part the Eastern Bloc service pistols seem to slip by the wayside.

Specifically, I'm interested in a Radom P-64 and a CZ 52, but the P-64 seems to be a much better candidate for concealed carry. On the other hand, there are people who carry fullsize 1911s, and the CZ's much more powerful load and two extra rounds would be nice, not to mention the MUCH cheaper surplus ammunition.

But I digress. Do any of you carry older surplus pistols? If not, why not? Is there something I'm missing? Is a well-maintained, somewhat modernized(i.e new wearable parts and updated springs) P-64 significantly less reliable than, say, a Walther PP?

Just curious... thanks!

 

[Cosmoline]

I carried a Walther PP for awhile a few years ago. I liked it very much, though it was somewhat picky about ammo. I've carried a Nagant '95 from time to time, but only with full power handloads. The 7.62 Nagant factory ammo around is all target strength. Stars are good, though Largo is a pain. The true Maks are excellent CCW pistols.

 

[lwrnc1963]

The surplus pistols I carry on my permit are old revolvers, a S&W 1917 and a Webley MK II.

 

[Novus Collectus]

The CZ82 is milsurp. I can't carry in my state, but if I did that would be the one I would.

 

[Soybomb]

Do any of you carry older surplus pistols? If not, why not?

I like surplus guns but I don't see any reason to carry them. They're usually bigger, bulkier, less reliable, harder to find holsters for, harder to find good defensive ammo for, seldom chambered in anything 9mm or larger, etc. Take the cz-52 for example since you mentioned it, its big, its heavy, its known to have issues with firing pings, you can't find a good defensive load, etc. If its all you've got its better than nothing, but for a little bit of money you can probably get a modern pistol that holds more rounds, takes up less space, and fires a better defensive round.

 

[markmc753]

EG Makarov

 

[DMK]

I have better pistols, more suited to the task, but I would definately not feel unarmed with my 45ACP 1927 Sistema, 32ACP Manhurin PP, or 9x18 CZ82 and EG Makarov. They are all very good shooters, absolutely reliable (at least with FMJ) and very tough.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Take the cz-52 for example since you mentioned it, its big, its heavy, its known to have issues with firing pings, you can't find a good defensive load,

http://www.qual-cart.com/762cz.htm

 

[5Wire]

DMK, got pix?

45ACP 1927 Sistema, 32ACP Manhurin PP, or 9x18 CZ82.

 

[jlpskydive]

Isn't a 1911 a mil surp???? Sure some are new copy's, but the design is a mil surp. Bersa (my wife carries) Makarov copy. Rock Island 1911's are pretty cheap and have nothing but praise as far as I have seen on the web and personal conversations.

 

[AndyC]

An old Rhodesian Selous Scout I knew carried a Tokarev - swore by it.

 

[telecaster1981]

BReilley,

I actually do carry the Radom P-64 exclusively! I can't imagine a better concealed carry gun for my needs. Mine has been 100% satisfactory...zero failures of ANY kind, totally concealable, and crazy accurate! One thing to consider though...I made a couple modifications before I ever fired the P-64. One Wolff 22# recoil spring and a Wolff 19# hammer spring. These smoothed out the DA pull quite a lot. My P-64 goes with me everywhere in a Bianchi IWB holster made for a PPK.

P-64= in my world!

Ben

 

[DMK]

DMK, got pix?

None of the CZ-82, but here's the Sistema, PP, and Mak. Found a pic of my CZ52s too.

 

[MisterPX]

Makarov here

 

[mavracer]

I would have no problem pressing my CZ52 into service.it's had the firing pin and rollers replaced.

 

[Geronimo45]

No. It broke before I got my license - CZ 70. I didn't come across any milsurp handguns I cared to carry in my area. Saw no P-64s, otherwise I'd probably have one.

The CZ 52s have been known to have brittle firing pins. You can replace those. And safeties are questionable, it seems. Fires a round with excellent penetration properties on hard surfaces. What we need is for ammunition manufacturers to turn out a good SD round, and market it as the 8mm Magnum. Sound and flash is right for the part.

CZ 82s are very cheap at the moment, and seem to have a following that's fond of 'em.

 

[fletcher]

Yep. Carry a Makarov very frequently.

 

[5Wire]

Thanks for the pix, DMK.

 

[CA357]

As has been mentioned, the CZ 82. They're under $300. which leaves a bunch of money left over for ammo and a decent holster or two. (one IWB, one OWB)

 

[BReilley]

Some of you understand pretty well what I'm thinking of when I say "modernized". I'm not talking taking a bone-stock 50-year-old service pistol out of the FedEx box, strapping it on my hip and hoping for the best when I need it. I'm figuring on dropping another hundred bucks or so on basic parts for any of these different pistols - for a P-64 it'd be a new set of springs to alter trigger and recoil behavior, for a CZ 52 it'd be the makarov.com external slide release as well as the moving parts; rollers, firing pin etc.

As for loads, I can think of much worse to depend on. I'd rather have a pocket full of 9x18(which a cursory search leads me to believe is roughly equivalent to .380ACP, if not slightly superior) than .32ACP, for instance, or .22Mag in a revolver. Likewise, while the 7.62TT is a small, light round, it's still very powerful, and the CZ 52's capacity is on par with a 1911. Now I'm not saying that either choice is EQUAL to a modern weapon, but for maybe $300 they seem like a decent place to start. Ifwhen something stupid happens, I'd be a lot better off having invested that $300 into a used pistol than a Playstation 3. The guns might well be as fun as the PS3, anyway
I'm not entirely convinced that I need crazy HP ammo for self-defense. I'd certainly better be able to hit somewhere that counts, when I need to. If I can't neutralise a threat with standard ball rounds like the military guys do(indeed, like all pistol-users did until hollow-point ammunition came around), then I need to spend time on practice, rather than spend money on magical bullets.

Just to give you some perspective on me, I don't own a car less than 15 years old(my wife's car doesn't count, she's picky ). I daily drive an '84 Celica. Bought it for $800, among the last of the light RWD Toyotas, and the most reliable car I have ever owned. I also have a thing for my two MR2s('86 and '91). I like "old" things because to me they still have value. Some very neat technology went into each one of my cars. There are new cars that are faster, more aerodynamic, with more powerful engines and comfier seats, but my old MR2 is still the most purely fun car I've ever driven, and I'm quite enjoying the slow process of restoring it, improving it along the way.

I feel the same about these older pistols. Take the CZ 52. What else uses a roller-delayed locking system(well, I can't afford a Korriphila)? How about a really hot, fairly small high-velocity round(can't quite justify owning a Five-seveN)? Innovative in its own time, still unique today, sounds like fun! So, like my old Toyotas that still deliver good times and take me to work and back, it seems as if maybe a retired pistol can provide me with some fun AND serve a purpose.

Thanks for your input guys, I'm really glad to hear that some of you have had good experiences with milsurp stuff. Now I feel justified

Again to clarify: I know I'm not going to get as much gun as if I were to buy what I really want(a CZ 97B). What I wanted to hear was whether any of you consider either worthwhile as anything more than a curiosity. That, by the way, seems to be the attitude at many other boards, and that is the reason I came here. I really appreciate your thoughts. And, I talk too much

Thanks, Ben

 

[Novus Collectus]

Take the CZ 52. What else uses a roller-delayed locking system

http://www.hkpro.com/p9.htm

Likewise, while the 7.62TT is a small, light round, it's still very powerful, and the CZ 52's capacity is on par with a 1911.

The muzzle energy of Sellier and Bellot ammo is more powerful energy wise than military issue .45 ACP and much more powerful than most commercial .45m ACP (but not as powerful as .45 ACP +P+). Stopping power is a different matter of course.
Also, you can drop a 9mm aftermarket barrel in it and use Parrabellum if you want.

If I can't neutralise a threat with standard ball rounds like the military guys do(indeed, like all pistol-users did until hollow-point ammunition came around), then I need to spend time on practice, rather than spend money on magical bullets.

Using expanding bullets isn't all about stopping power, it is also about preventing overpenetration.

If you are going to conceal carry a CZ52, then make sure you get one in good shape, the magazine floorplates are not bent and you slightly peen or "stake" the holes for the pins so they do not slide out in the middle of a self defense situation.
The green parkerized ones are typically in better shape than the blued ones, but there are some abused green ones out there too. Remember that some of these saw regular service for thirty years.

 

[CA357]

What about a used pistol? Check some gun shops and see what they've got. If they're good guys, ask if they have something "in back". Sometimes there's a trade in or consignment gun in the back room that may be just what you're looking for.

 

[golden]

Throwing Your Money Away

BREILY,
I think you will be throwing your money down the toilet. Most of the surplus stuff is either old and maybe obsolete or underpowered and poorly made.
Sure, every once in a while you find a great gun at a great price, but not often.
First off, you can buy a used Ruger or Smith&Wesson .38 special or .357 magnum for @ $300.00 or LESS if you shop around. Proven reliability, inexpensive ammo and easy to obtain items like holsters and grips.

If you want to spend a little more, you can buy a NEW Ruger P-95, Smith&Wesson Sigma or Taurus 24/7. The Ruger is a bit clunky, but reliable as a brick. The Sigma has a mediocre trigger, but the one that I shot, was reliable and more than accurate enought for the job. I have not shot the Taurus, but it has gotten good reviews and there are plenty of these guns for rent at shooting ranges. Try before you buy.

I have also bought BERETTA 92 & 96 police demo pistols for under $400.00 These were virtually brand new and in excellent shape with great trigger actions.

The little extra you spend now will be recouped in the savings when you buy the much cheaper 9m.m. ammo. You can get 100 rounds of Remington hollow point at WALMART for @ $26.00 dollars. Try finding good hollow point ammo for a CZ 52!
One other thing, the above mentioned guns all have good reputations for reliability and great repair warranties. Where do you get your surplus gun fixed if it has a problem?

Last, how much is your life worth? That is the price you put on a gun you use for self defense.

I have been down this road before and found out the hard way. Good luck with your decision.

Jim

 

[Soybomb]

Some of you understand pretty well what I'm thinking of when I say "modernized". I'm not talking taking a bone-stock 50-year-old service pistol out of the FedEx box, strapping it on my hip and hoping for the best when I need it. I'm figuring on dropping another hundred bucks or so on basic parts for any of these different pistols - for a P-64 it'd be a new set of springs to alter trigger and recoil behavior, for a CZ 52 it'd be the makarov.com external slide release as well as the moving parts; rollers, firing pin etc.

Even then though you still wind up with problems. Back to the cz52, most people put in the high end firing ping. It smoothes out trigger pull...and eliminates the drop safety. And then what holster are you going to put it in? Where do you get the quality jhp's for it? At some point aren't you better to spend spend $300 on a used glock or s&w?

f I can't neutralise a threat with standard ball rounds like the military guys do(indeed, like all pistol-users did until hollow-point ammunition came around), then I need to spend time on practice, rather than spend money on magical bullets.

I think the military guys usually wind up using rifles when possible and seldom a handgun. 9mm ball doesn't have a stellar reputation for stopping people. There's also really no reason to think anything a hollow point is magic. What seems magical or mysterious about a wound that has 2x the diameter of another wound being more damaging to a person and likely to force them to stop attacking quicker?

but my old MR2 is still the most purely fun car I've ever driven, and I'm quite enjoying the slow process of restoring it, improving it along the way.

There are guns to be had for fun, and there are guns means for more serious matters. Shouldn't the easier to carry, safer, more powerful gun that you can actually find holsters and quality ammo for be the one you want to carry with you?

 

[denfoote]

I carried a Makarov for years!!!