Anyone carry with an empty chamber?

[Baron Holbach]

Yes, I carry a round in the chamber in my Glocks and other pistols. However, as a lefty I prefer the Beretta 92FS due to its ambidextrous safety.

 

[M1911]

I know an individual who carries his Glock with an empty chamber and cycles the slide when he draws. He is not slow. When I carry an autoloader it usually has the chamber loaded, but not always.

I'm sure he's fast. With both hands. How fast is he when one of his hands is pushing a loved one to cover? Or fending off the perp? Or opening a door?

I strongly recommend AGAINST sometimes carrying with chamber loaded and sometimes not. If the SHTF, you will react as you have trained. If you have trained condition 1 but your gun is in condition 3, you may well forget that your chamber is empty -- after all, you'll have some other pressing issues to be thinking about.

Fight the way you train and train the way you fight. If you decide to carry condition 3, fine. Train that way and carry that way. If you decide to carry condition 1, fine. Train that way and carry that way. Mixing and matching is a good way to screw up under pressure.

 

[Logistar]

I USED to carry without one in the chamber. I thought it was "SAFE". ONCE in a while I have screwed up while chambering a round. (Hand slipped off, etc.) I suppose I should be more careful... but how do you know that it won't be pouring down rain when you have to draw? What if that first round jams for whatever reason????

So I went to one in chamber, safety on. I practiced this for a while. I was pretty good at it. Then one day, I went out to the farm, set up some targets, then walked through them and at random intervals pretended they were BGs and drew and fired on them. Unfortunately, I did not swipe the safety EVERY time. Most of the time, yes. But under "pressure" and at high speed I occasionally failed. Having to take a second or third swipe at the safety might just get me (or you) killed.

My current mode of carry is round chambered, safety OFF, gun ALWAYS holstered. I have ONLY DA guns. With the hammer down, I am satisfied that there is NO WAY this gun is going off unless I pull the trigger (Hammer blocks, etc.) and THAT can only happen after the gun is removed from the holster. (All my holsters COMPLETELY cover the trigger and trigger guard.)

With ANY GUN I have, if it is in the holster then I am sure that one pull of the trigger and I get a bang. - that goes for my Taurus, my Beretta, and my revolver. - No chambering, no safety, etc.

If you are "new" to carrying, I would suggest that you do not do anything you don't feel comfortable with but I bet many of you (over time) will end up agreeing with me. (Except for all you SA guys who carry C&L of course.)

Comments?

Logistar

 

[MacPelto]

You can test the amount of danger quite easily. Carry it for a while cocked, but with the chamber empty. With a Glock, all you have to do is look at the trigger to see if it has been pulled. If you carry it for 'N' amount of time (however long makes you feel warm and fuzzy) without the trigger unintentionally pulling on the empty chamber, you'll realize that you'll be fine. If you DO find the trigger pulled, you should figure out what caused it to happen, becuase it wasn't caused by magic.

 

[mrt]

cocked & locked

after that last post I had to write...I think a trained draw is what's needed (whatever your mode)...to carry also means practice. but without turning this into a long discussion...I like the safety on ...now when I draw I don't even think about flipping a safety. ..cause I practice in condition 1.

 

[curt]

I think its safer to carry with one in the pipe. You are carrying because of some possibility that you will need to use it, why compromise that? Moving to cover or fending off the attacker with your weakhand could seriously compromise your ability to rack the slide. Also i would think there would be a higher probablity of setting a round off premarturely as your racking the slide while trying to acquire the front sight and doing all of the rest of your dance. I think the key to carrying any loaded pistol is to ensure that the trigger quard is covered eliminating the possibility of something other than your finger operating the trigger.

In my opinion people that carry unloaded are too uncomfortable with their skills or choice of weapon. IMO thats the problem that needs, and can, be fixed.

BTW even if something spontaneously broke in a Glock the striker is only partially precocked and unlikely to set off a round.

 

[Mal H]

No. It can be debated that having a round in the chamber is just as safe, all things considered, as not having one. You have to chamber one when the gun is drawn. You are generally going to be under a much higher stress level at that time with a much higher probability of something going wrong.

Besides why would I want to give up 10 to 15% of my available ammo?

 

[Logistar]

What I was saying was that I see no need to use the safety on a DA gun. Unless that hammer is pulled back AND the trigger is pulled, nothing is going to happen. (All my guns have hammer blocks.) Whether I pick up a revolver or one of my semis, it is the same thing... draw weapon pull trigger.

My opinion is that there are 2 ways to go:

DA - hammer down - safety off (or nonexistant)
SA - cocked and locked.

With DA, your first shot might be more inaccurate due to the longer, harder pull.

With SA, you have to get that safety off. I am not saying that you can't do it reliably. it is just that I was practicing it and seemed fine. When I really "pushed myself", I was less than 100% .

Since I have revolvers, autos WITH safeties, and autos WITHOUT safeties, I feel my best bet is to K.I.S.S. - pull gun, pull trigger.

Just my .02 - Not trying to start anything. When I started carrying a couple of years ago and found TFL, I disagreed with many of the guys there (C&L, etc.). Over time, I have found mostly that *I* was wrong and you guys were right. - Just wanted to give guys (especially newbies) some things to think about!

Logistar

 

[Soap]

In addition to what M1911 said, how the heck can you go into a proper retention position if you carry without one in the chamber? Go go Gadget arms!

 

[Leibster]

Condition 3 Carry...

It might be relevant to point out that "Condition 3" carry is the preferred mode of carry in Israel, where the threat level is relatively high.

The Israelis (including civilians, police and military) have extensively proven this technique not on the range, but in battle. Sure preferences may vary, but to say condition 3 carry is always a bad idea is to deny the fact that it's been very, very effective for a pretty sizeable sample group.

Another benefit of this mode of carry is that there is almost never an accidental discharge.

Not that there's anything wrong with condition one carry, but realistically speaking, it's hard to deny that chamber empty carry works.

--Leibster

 

[DeltaElite]

I know that the Israelis practice this method of carry, but that doesn't make it any more effective, only more commonplace.

I will continue to carry a with a round chambered, since it is the more effective method for immediate defensive needs.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think there is a presumption here that anyone who carries a loaded pistol does so in a weapon/self-defense context. This is not always the case. I wouldn’t argue with those who chose to carry the chamber loaded in the mentioned environment. In fact, on those occasions when I carry a pistol as a weapon the chamber is loaded. However when this is not the case and the “threat level†is extremely low I may, or may not have the chamber loaded – it all depends on the circumstances.

My friend has made a judgment call and decided to carry his Glock with the chamber empty. Obviously this is not the popular way with most of those who have posted to this thread, and they too have a right to use their own judgment. But the original question was “does anyone carry a pistol with the chamber empty?†The answer is yes, some do – but they are apparently a small minority.

 

[M1911]

Olf Fuff: I have no problem with someone deciding to carry condition 3. It's their choice. It does have an advantage -- less chance of an ND. But it also has disadvantages as well.

 

[Leibster]

DeltaElite,

I certainly don't have anything against carrying with a loaded chamber, but it seems you have a beef with chamber empty carry. Further, it seems that your opinion is based solely on feeling, rather objective data.

Rare is the task that has only one correct way to accomplish it. The fact is that while some Americans do well with condition one carry, Israelis do quite well in handgun fights, even with the condition 3 carry mode. It's well documented, and if there were significant problems in performance because of this carry method, the Israelis would have switched long ago.

To argue condition 3 carry is less effective than C&L, for example, would simply be to ignore facts. Israelis overwhelmingly continue to carry this way not only because it's safer in terms of ADs, but also because it seems to be working just fine for them.

--Leibster

 

[isaidme]

I see racking a Glock the same as racking a shotgun except you only have to do it the first round.Its quick,One condition rather your carying it or have it in drawer,No mistakes to be made!The trigger saftey isnt a saftey people

 

[Spackler]

The fact is that while some Americans do well with condition one carry, Israelis do quite well in handgun fights, even with the condition 3 carry mode. It's well documented, and if there were significant problems in performance because of this carry method, the Israelis would have switched long ago.

There's a big difference between a professional shooter carrying chamber-empty and Joe CCW carrying chamber-emtpy. The Israelis are highly trained pros. If I had the training and experience they had, I'm sure I'd be comfortable carrying that way as well.

 

[Leibster]

There's a big difference between a professional shooter carrying chamber-empty and Joe CCW carrying chamber-emtpy. The Israelis are highly trained pros. If I had the training and experience they had, I'm sure I'd be comfortable carrying that way as well.

Actually, that's not quite true. The military units that use handguns are highly trained. The police probably get a bit more firearms training than average American police depts. but not a great deal more. And most average civilians are (at best!) trained to about the same level as the average American CCW holder. Yet all three of these groups overwhelmingly carry condition 3, with good results.

I know because I lived there for some years, spent some time in the military and trained with some counter-terror types. I also personally know people who've gotten their gun from from condition 3 into action fast enough to save their lives.

I'm not knocking condition one carry at all; I've got nothing against it for any responsible person who feels comfortable with that mode of carry.

What I am saying is that there is a huge body of evidence that shows that condition 3 is ALSO an effective mode of carry, and I am a little surprised by all those who bash it as a viable technique.

--Leibster

 

[Spackler]

I also personally know people who've gotten their gun from from condition 3 into action fast enough to save their lives.

Can't help but think they would have been faster, with less room for error, if they didn't have to chamber a round.

Chamber-empty is not for me, but if you feel comfortable carrying that way, it sure beats not carrying at all. I'll still contend that for somebody of average skills and training, carrying chamber-empty leaves more room for error than not.

 

[mete]

Do you really think that the bad guy is going to give you 10 minutes to 'get ready' ? Racking the slide takes two hands , try that when you are using one hand to do things like blocking a blow with a baseball bat. If you don't trust the gun you have get one that you can trust.

 

[Leibster]

I'm a little confused. I'm not conjecturing that empty chamber carry works--it's a fact. Why are some people so annoyed by that?

As for the two hand problem, it's rarely needed, but there are ways of chambering one handed--like racking the slide on your belt or shoe heel, using the sight as a contact point.

Like I said, I've certainly not got anything against loaded-chamber carry, I just find it curious that by stating empty-chamber carry is also valid, I illicit so many strong responses.

--Leibster

 

[Old Fuff]

M1911;

You’re right. There are disadvantages as well as advantages to carrying a pistol in Condition 3. The degree of advantage or disadvantage depends on the particular pistol, its user and the circumstances under which the pistol is being carried. I am not advocating Condition 3 carry, I’m simply pointing out that some people, as a matter of choice do it.

Individuals who are participating in this thread are doing an excellent job of illustrating the pros and cons on both sides of the issue – which is exactly what is wanted. Anyone who is reading the posts will find out a lot of things he or she should consider if they carry a pistol. I am delighted. Obviously this forum, The High Road is invaluable as a source of information, and your contributions (as well as mine) are one of the reasons.

 

[Leibster]

Couldn't agree more!!

--Leibster

 

[M1911]

Old Fluff: I think we're in violent agreement.

 

[Old Fuff]

Is that random violent agreement? (grinning).

 

[DeltaElite]

I never said that the Israeli method didn't work.
I just think it is impractical to have to add another motion to your draw in a stressfire situation.

As for objective data, it is faster to draw and shoot, than to draw, chamber and shoot. Adding in an extra motion can't possibly speed up the delivery of rounds onto target.
It is a viable technique, if you don't mind slowing down the delivery of your first round, usually the most important round in a gun fight.
I don't care for the technique, because I find it to be a hinderance to deploying my gun into action. Where I work, I draw my weapon several times daily, whether it is for a shooting, building clearance or another threat. It would be impractical to be drawing and clearing my gun several times daily.
It is more than a feeling I have about the technique, it is what works best for me.

I have no disrespect for the Israelis, they have proven themselves to be a superior fighting force on numerous occassions. I just disagree with the viability of their chosen carry method.

I am curious, do any other groups practice the empty chamber carry method? Or is it primarily an Israeli carry method.