CCW: Chamber loaded or empty?
- Thread starter Krenn
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TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
These "conditions" are generally used when talking about a 1911.
Other models may need other descriptions.
Condition 1 is the way the 1911 was intended to be used. Someone will be in here with some wacky story about either the Israelis and their love for condition 3, and some other wacky story about cavalry soldiers and condition
2, but it is generally accepted that Condition 1 is proper for a 1911.
Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
Other models may need other descriptions.
Condition 1 is the way the 1911 was intended to be used. Someone will be in here with some wacky story about either the Israelis and their love for condition 3, and some other wacky story about cavalry soldiers and condition
2, but it is generally accepted that Condition 1 is proper for a 1911.
Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
Cortland
Member
You're kiddin' right?
Do even the Israelis do this nonsense anymore?
Do even the Israelis do this nonsense anymore?
Flashpoint
Member
Fire in the hole.
That's the way guns were made to be carried.
That's the way guns were made to be carried.
Jamie C.
Member
A gun with an empty chamber isn't a weapon, concealed or otherwise.... It's just an interesting paperweight.
A paperweight that could get you killed.
J.C.
A paperweight that could get you killed.
J.C.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
SIG 226 DA/SA - naturally - always one in the pipe - no time to rack a round when emergency crops up!!!
Lupinus
Member
I don't carry concealed (only 20)
But I don't see the point in not carrying it with one in the chamber? You should be able to draw and fire you dont have time to get one in the chamber.
One in the chamber and the hammer uncocked I can see. But not without a round chambered. There is nothing in this world more usless then an unloaded gun.
Well...on second though....Michael Moore an the UN might be more usless. Democrats too. But an unloaded gun is up there in the top five at least.
But I don't see the point in not carrying it with one in the chamber? You should be able to draw and fire you dont have time to get one in the chamber.
One in the chamber and the hammer uncocked I can see. But not without a round chambered. There is nothing in this world more usless then an unloaded gun.
Well...on second though....Michael Moore an the UN might be more usless. Democrats too. But an unloaded gun is up there in the top five at least.
Jamie C.
Member
Krenn said:
Well, in the "usual" carry mode of "hammer down, and in the holster", it's the chamber of the SA that'll be rolled under the hammer when it's cocked that's the important one....and the one that should definitely be loaded. As far as the one that's under the hammer at rest, well, it is the last to be fired, so isn't really that big a deal, except for safety reasons. It being empty is pretty much a requirement in an original Colt SA.
Also, if you're crazy enough to carry a fully-loaded Colt SA holstered and cocked...you probably have a few "issues" that you need to resolve before you're allowed to carry ANY weapon.
But as you said, this is the autoloader's forum, and that was the type of action I was primarily addressing.
J.C.
Lennyjoe
Member
Absolutely one in the pipe. I don't want to have to rack the slide when the bad guy is advancing. That split second might be the difference between life and death.
CajunBass
Member
Unless you're an action movie hero, and know you'll have time to rack the slide at just the right time to get that perfect "snick, snick" sound that makes all the bad guys in the movies wet their pants, I don't see much sense in walking around with an unloaded gun.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
The whole reason "empty chamber" even crosses a person's mind is because of the paranoia and fear of a negligent/accidental discharge.
It is reasonable to have concern over this issue. That is fine. However, turing a gun into a throwing rock by not chambering a round defeats the purpose of having a gun. No instructor on Earth (that is competent) would advocate that you draw, chamber, then fire. It is just absurd.
Trust the safety mechanisms of the gun - they will work. Such devices are hammer blocks, firing pin blocks, striker blocks etc. This prevents the gun from going off if a spring or pin breaks. In other words, mechanical failure still can't make the gun go off. Nothing will make it discharge except for spontaneous ignition of the primer or powder which is probably 1:1,000,000,000,000 odds.
So the only thing you have to worry about is that trigger.
DO THIS:
Take the gun you want to carry concealed. Take out the magazine. UNLOAD the gun. Check the chamber. Be sure it isn't loaded. Now, rack the slide, and make sure the gun is cocked. If a 1911, put safety on. If a Glock, rack to make sure tension is on the striker. This allows you to determine if the gun would have discharged or not in the following test.
Carry it around. Test it in your home. Bend, twist, fumble around it. If in pocket, move around and about, rub against it, tug, tuck, pull, snag, stretch, poke...do whatever you can within reason to get that trigger to fully pull and hear a "click". If you can do that, I'd be impressed. It is tough to get a double action concealed carry gun's trigger to be pulled all the way back. If a 1911, see if you can get the safety disengaged at all. Don't forget, these also have grip safeties making them one of the safest guns.
**make sure the gun is UNLOADED**
Use reason. Guns without long, heavy trigger pulls should be used in a holster - that means 1911's and Glocks. If you use a holster - there is 10 times less worry about an accidental discharge. An HK USP has such a brutal double action pull, you can get away with pocket carry in a jacket or something. Same goes for double action-J frame revolvers. Kel-Tecs have long, heavy pulls. Kahr has a long heavy pull. Not only are they all long, and heavy, but they all "fire" when the trigger is completely rearward. Which is tough to do unless your using a finger.
If you pocket carry, then use a pocket holster to keep the gun upright for quick draw, and NEVER put anything like keys in the pocket that can tangle with the trigger etc..
If you have a holster, the only thing to worry about isn't discharging while in the holster, or while drawing, but while holstering (Glocks).
Common sense stuff.
It is reasonable to have concern over this issue. That is fine. However, turing a gun into a throwing rock by not chambering a round defeats the purpose of having a gun. No instructor on Earth (that is competent) would advocate that you draw, chamber, then fire. It is just absurd.
Trust the safety mechanisms of the gun - they will work. Such devices are hammer blocks, firing pin blocks, striker blocks etc. This prevents the gun from going off if a spring or pin breaks. In other words, mechanical failure still can't make the gun go off. Nothing will make it discharge except for spontaneous ignition of the primer or powder which is probably 1:1,000,000,000,000 odds.
So the only thing you have to worry about is that trigger.
DO THIS:
Take the gun you want to carry concealed. Take out the magazine. UNLOAD the gun. Check the chamber. Be sure it isn't loaded. Now, rack the slide, and make sure the gun is cocked. If a 1911, put safety on. If a Glock, rack to make sure tension is on the striker. This allows you to determine if the gun would have discharged or not in the following test.
Carry it around. Test it in your home. Bend, twist, fumble around it. If in pocket, move around and about, rub against it, tug, tuck, pull, snag, stretch, poke...do whatever you can within reason to get that trigger to fully pull and hear a "click". If you can do that, I'd be impressed. It is tough to get a double action concealed carry gun's trigger to be pulled all the way back. If a 1911, see if you can get the safety disengaged at all. Don't forget, these also have grip safeties making them one of the safest guns.
**make sure the gun is UNLOADED**
Use reason. Guns without long, heavy trigger pulls should be used in a holster - that means 1911's and Glocks. If you use a holster - there is 10 times less worry about an accidental discharge. An HK USP has such a brutal double action pull, you can get away with pocket carry in a jacket or something. Same goes for double action-J frame revolvers. Kel-Tecs have long, heavy pulls. Kahr has a long heavy pull. Not only are they all long, and heavy, but they all "fire" when the trigger is completely rearward. Which is tough to do unless your using a finger.
If you pocket carry, then use a pocket holster to keep the gun upright for quick draw, and NEVER put anything like keys in the pocket that can tangle with the trigger etc..
If you have a holster, the only thing to worry about isn't discharging while in the holster, or while drawing, but while holstering (Glocks).
Common sense stuff.
Tom Servo
Member
If this is a weapon for self-defense, there must absolutely be a round in the chamber. You may not have the time or the presence of mind to rack the slide when the time comes. The panic reflex will kick in, blotting out most rational thought, and your instinct will be to just pull the trigger.
What's more, what if you don't have the use of both hands? One may be occupied or injured, and even if it isn't, you're going to be shaking and/or sweating. There's a good chance you won't be able to rack the slide properly, in which case you're asking for a jam.
As long as Rule #3 is practised religiously, modern pistols are perfectly safe to carry with a round chambered, and they're meant to be carried that way. If it's a training issue, take a class. Take two. Practice until you're comfortable with this and prepared for the worst.
What's more, what if you don't have the use of both hands? One may be occupied or injured, and even if it isn't, you're going to be shaking and/or sweating. There's a good chance you won't be able to rack the slide properly, in which case you're asking for a jam.
As long as Rule #3 is practised religiously, modern pistols are perfectly safe to carry with a round chambered, and they're meant to be carried that way. If it's a training issue, take a class. Take two. Practice until you're comfortable with this and prepared for the worst.
Gary G23
Member
I can tell you from personal experience that the bad guy is not going to give you a two minute warning.
The only time I carry in condition 3 is when I'm carrying a Glock without a holster. A rare occurrence, but sometimes when I'm at home I'll stick the Glock in a back pocket or a robe pocket, always ensuring that the chamber is empty.
Ken Rainey
Member
Chamber loaded.
Middy, have you ever tried carrying that Glock with the trigger set and the chamber empty and found out later that the trigger had been pulled by something other than your finger? Try it, you may just find that you can carry chamber loaded without worry.
I've carried a Glock without a holster for years and have never had a problem. It seems that most people are just nervous about the "what if" or they're afraid they can't keep their finger off the trigger and want to blame it on the "what if".
The bottom line is keeping your finger off the trigger because surely no one is going to carry a pistol in a place or manner in which something else could pull the trigger...are they??
My most carried Glock is set up with the NY1 trigger spring and the "-" connector. The NY1 spring does increase the initial takeup resistance but I have carried my other Glocks using the standard trigger setup without issue as well.
Standard disclaimer: As always, YMMV
Middy, have you ever tried carrying that Glock with the trigger set and the chamber empty and found out later that the trigger had been pulled by something other than your finger? Try it, you may just find that you can carry chamber loaded without worry.
I've carried a Glock without a holster for years and have never had a problem. It seems that most people are just nervous about the "what if" or they're afraid they can't keep their finger off the trigger and want to blame it on the "what if".
The bottom line is keeping your finger off the trigger because surely no one is going to carry a pistol in a place or manner in which something else could pull the trigger...are they??
My most carried Glock is set up with the NY1 trigger spring and the "-" connector. The NY1 spring does increase the initial takeup resistance but I have carried my other Glocks using the standard trigger setup without issue as well.
Standard disclaimer: As always, YMMV
White Horseradish
Member
Carry mode depends on the design of the gun. My 1911 is cocked and locked. My Makarov, I have one in the pipe, hammer down, safety off if in a holster, safety on if in a pocket. The one pistol I would consider carrying chamber empty would be the Tokarev. It's a single action without a safety. I would carry it cocked with chamber empty.
I'm not sure what would posess me to carry that antique, though.
I'm not sure what would posess me to carry that antique, though.
StrikeEagle
Member
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Don't Tread On Me
Nice post.
Nice post.
Kamicosmos
Member
Loaded, safety on.
PCRCCW
Member
Like I even have to really reply to this one....but will! Anyone who doesnt carry one in the chamber, with today's gun and safety technology thrown in, doesnt need to be carrying in the first place.
Shoot well.
Shoot well.
Lupinus
Member
Since I am planning to get an XD quick request for a reccomendation.
Since it doesn't have a traditional safty would you recomend one chambered as well?
The safties on the XD disingage when you grip it (there is one on the back of the grip and one on the trigger itself). When you hold it ready to fire the position depresses both the grip and trigger safty making it ready to fire. But it has no traiditonal safty, jsut holding it properly and ready to fire unsafes it.
Recomend chambered or unchambered?
Since it doesn't have a traditional safty would you recomend one chambered as well?
The safties on the XD disingage when you grip it (there is one on the back of the grip and one on the trigger itself). When you hold it ready to fire the position depresses both the grip and trigger safty making it ready to fire. But it has no traiditonal safty, jsut holding it properly and ready to fire unsafes it.
Recomend chambered or unchambered?
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