Anyone carry with an empty chamber?
- Thread starter Weezer
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Hardtarget
Member
I've always carried fully loaded...thats six when I carry a revolver or "one up" and a full mag in my semi auto. I hope the only rounds I ever fire are for fun at the range!
Mark.
Mark.
Leibster
Member
DeltaElite,
Apology accepted. I also apologize if I was out of line.
2 Cops in 12 years is a damn good safety record for ADs. What department are you with?
--Leibster
4thHorseman
Member
I was looking at Guns and Ammo back cover today and I noticed something that caught my eye. It was an advertisement for Para Ordanance. Big bold letters..."Para....Carry Safely!"
The second paragraph reads, " Para's patented LDA gives you a hammer down carry for safety with a sweet,smooth trigger. You don't have to cmpromise safety or accuracy with a heavy trigger."
The very last sentence reads, "The New Para CCW with its hammer down carry is sweet smooth and safe."
Twice more it mentions the word "safe."
Notice the word "safety" keeps coming up.
That to me implies single actions are not safe. It doesn't come right out and state single actions are unsafe, but sure does lean that direction. So I quess that is were some of the false ideas come from. It promotes the public's perception. I don't believe that to be true.
The second paragraph reads, " Para's patented LDA gives you a hammer down carry for safety with a sweet,smooth trigger. You don't have to cmpromise safety or accuracy with a heavy trigger."
The very last sentence reads, "The New Para CCW with its hammer down carry is sweet smooth and safe."
Twice more it mentions the word "safe."
Notice the word "safety" keeps coming up.
That to me implies single actions are not safe. It doesn't come right out and state single actions are unsafe, but sure does lean that direction. So I quess that is were some of the false ideas come from. It promotes the public's perception. I don't believe that to be true.
The reason why I carry Condition One is because my most likely encounter here is one that is at extremely close range. As such, I don't want to have to rack the slide because that would prevent me from going into a proper retention position. Also, if you are bearhugged/tackled/being bitten by a dog/etc. you cannot get your gun into action unless you rack it on your belt or leg. If it works for you, that's fine. But for me, I believe that most dangers come at close range and extremely quickly. Condition Three carry provides no advantages and a host of disadvantages.
Leibster
Member
Actually, there are two marked advantages to condition 3 carry. The first is increased safety from ADs. With condition 3, they are almost impossible to have. The second is increased safety from a gun-grab. In the event your gun is snatched away, you'll likely have some small window of time before your attacker realizes he needs to rack the slide.
Everything has it's pluses and minuses. I agree you should do what you feel comfortable with, as long as safe guidelines are followed.
--Leibster
Everything has it's pluses and minuses. I agree you should do what you feel comfortable with, as long as safe guidelines are followed.
--Leibster
I would wholeheartly agree that people should carry however they feel comfortable. But its always nice to have a civil debate on certain techniques, gear, etc.
Only if one can't obey the Four Rules. And if one can't, maybe they should rethink carrying a gun.
If you do proper retention techniques, a gun grab is extremely difficult. And proper retention techniques cannot be done with a gun in Condition Three. So you're basically creating an "advantage" out of a disadvantage.
Only if one can't obey the Four Rules. And if one can't, maybe they should rethink carrying a gun.
If you do proper retention techniques, a gun grab is extremely difficult. And proper retention techniques cannot be done with a gun in Condition Three. So you're basically creating an "advantage" out of a disadvantage.
DeltaElite
Member
Nah, Leibster you didn't offend, I was the butt head.
I sent you a PM also.
I sent you a PM also.
Leibster
Member
DeltaElite,
You have a PM. Nice chatting with you.
--Leibster
You have a PM. Nice chatting with you.
--Leibster
HadEmAll
Member
No way Jose. Stuff can happen too fast and you might not have the luxury of two hands to get Ol' Betsy functional.
stans
Member
I think carrying a defensive firearm with an empty chamber is kind of like going bear hunting with a pocket knife. Sure, you might be successful, but I am going wager heavily on the bear winning. Also, never bring a knife to a gunfight, always bring the biggest gun you can handle, anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice, well armed friends are always a plus.
Leibster
Member
I think those unfamiliar with a proper condition 3 carry technique are unaware as to how fast into action it is.
I'm not familiar with how anyone else would do it, but with the Israeli system, there is room to keep a decent weapon retention position, and it can be done by someone well-trained (draw, cock, fire, scoring hit at 7 meters) in under one second. For someone who is slow and trains less consistently, this time is significantly higher; up around 1.5 -2.0 seconds. I believe this is on par with condition 1 draw times.
The way we do it in Israel, the cocking motion actually causes the handgun to be seated properly in the hand, forcing a proper combat grip at the time of firing. Further, since racking the slide is a gross motor skill, both experience and physiology bear out that one's ability to perform this action under stress is enhanced, not diminished. (We get better at performing gross motor funcitons under stress, while fine and complex motor skills become more difficult. This is physiological fact.)
Don't knock it till you've seen it.
--Leibster
I'm not familiar with how anyone else would do it, but with the Israeli system, there is room to keep a decent weapon retention position, and it can be done by someone well-trained (draw, cock, fire, scoring hit at 7 meters) in under one second. For someone who is slow and trains less consistently, this time is significantly higher; up around 1.5 -2.0 seconds. I believe this is on par with condition 1 draw times.
The way we do it in Israel, the cocking motion actually causes the handgun to be seated properly in the hand, forcing a proper combat grip at the time of firing. Further, since racking the slide is a gross motor skill, both experience and physiology bear out that one's ability to perform this action under stress is enhanced, not diminished. (We get better at performing gross motor funcitons under stress, while fine and complex motor skills become more difficult. This is physiological fact.)
Don't knock it till you've seen it.
--Leibster
I didn't carry with a round in the chamber when I was just starting out for the first month or so. I did train on pulling the slide while presenting the firearms. I have started carring with a round in the chamber after I was set with a good holster and a firearm I was well familiar with.
Leibster
Member
The weapon is cocked immediately against your body at the midline. In this position, the weapon is immediately fireable should that be warranted. If not, the weapon can go back to "ready", which, in the Israeli system, is the same as is generally called "retention" position by American practitioners. That is to say, pointed forward, held back just in front of the strong side hip. Alternately, the weapon can continue on its natural line toward full extension, and begin engaging targets.
--Leibster
--Leibster
chambered
I agree with Thumper. Your (slide racking) hand may be engaged fending off a knife or puch or it may even just be plain injured by the time you realize you need to draw and fire. Having a round chambered is the way to go. If you don't feel comfortable that way, change guns or practice more until it is comfortable and natural. Furthermore, practice with both hands, right and left. My shooting with my left hand caused me to realize that my right eye needed correction. Shooting left handed (weak hand) gave me much tighter shot groups. I wan't as fast and took longer with the muzzle flip but once I had lined up and fired, the holes were all right there. Regardless, it seems that the KISS principle applies here and why put in an extra step when it's not needed.
$.02 worth.
I agree with Thumper. Your (slide racking) hand may be engaged fending off a knife or puch or it may even just be plain injured by the time you realize you need to draw and fire. Having a round chambered is the way to go. If you don't feel comfortable that way, change guns or practice more until it is comfortable and natural. Furthermore, practice with both hands, right and left. My shooting with my left hand caused me to realize that my right eye needed correction. Shooting left handed (weak hand) gave me much tighter shot groups. I wan't as fast and took longer with the muzzle flip but once I had lined up and fired, the holes were all right there. Regardless, it seems that the KISS principle applies here and why put in an extra step when it's not needed.
$.02 worth.
Leibster
Member
Daniel Flory,
I don't know how everyone does it, but in Israel, the support hand stays stationary and near the body while gripping the slide, while the gun hand pushes it's way through the range of movement, chambering the round. At this point, the shooter has his off hand free to join in a 2 handed grip, ward off evil, or whatever else may need doing. The off hand stays at the midline while this assessment is made.
Bear in mind that the time frame here is infinitessimal.
--Leibster
Interesting discussion,
Obviously, condition 3 works so no issue here. Unfortunately, Israel has a lot of "real world" practice to dispute it's techniques.
What type of handguns are common or used by the army and citizens?
I have always thought the "double action" type guns, particulary the ones with a manuel safety, were designed to eliminate the need to carry empty.
Did the Israel method develop when single action guns were used and continue regardless of the type of handgun, since it worked, or is it simply fast enough and the ultimate in safety?
Does anyone know how our troops carry the model 92? I know the 1911 was condition 3 way back!
Thanks
Obviously, condition 3 works so no issue here. Unfortunately, Israel has a lot of "real world" practice to dispute it's techniques.
What type of handguns are common or used by the army and citizens?
I have always thought the "double action" type guns, particulary the ones with a manuel safety, were designed to eliminate the need to carry empty.
Did the Israel method develop when single action guns were used and continue regardless of the type of handgun, since it worked, or is it simply fast enough and the ultimate in safety?
Does anyone know how our troops carry the model 92? I know the 1911 was condition 3 way back!
Thanks
H
Handy
Guest
The Marines on guard duty in the middle east carry condition 2. This is one of the main advantages in getting a new service pistol.
What works in Israel may not work here. We have almost no military/terrorist type problem (yet) and they do not have a lot of crime related violence. Both are unexpected, but violent crime tends to happen at a much shorter range. I can't imagine trying to load a weapon while fending off a knife or another gun.
The Hi-Power has always been big in Israel. If there is discomfort with cocked and locked or manual decocking, cond 3 becomes the only viable option for that firearm.
My question about Israel would be about the Jericho pistol. If this fine weapon is actually common, isn't the small amount of exposed slide to grab a hinderance?
What works in Israel may not work here. We have almost no military/terrorist type problem (yet) and they do not have a lot of crime related violence. Both are unexpected, but violent crime tends to happen at a much shorter range. I can't imagine trying to load a weapon while fending off a knife or another gun.
The Hi-Power has always been big in Israel. If there is discomfort with cocked and locked or manual decocking, cond 3 becomes the only viable option for that firearm.
My question about Israel would be about the Jericho pistol. If this fine weapon is actually common, isn't the small amount of exposed slide to grab a hinderance?
Leibster-
Okay that answers my question perfectly. So basically the diffence in your style of retention postition and mine would be that your gun is about 8-12" more extended outward and you only have one hand on the gun. To each his own...but I like hearing about how other people do it.
Okay that answers my question perfectly. So basically the diffence in your style of retention postition and mine would be that your gun is about 8-12" more extended outward and you only have one hand on the gun. To each his own...but I like hearing about how other people do it.
I find that much too risky. I carry an 80% 1911 frame and a set of files. When provoked the flurry of metal shavings that i send flying is enough to cause most men to give pause.
Now if i can just find the proper way to carry my Dillon 650 concealed i can eliminate the carrying of those dangerous loaded rounds.
Leibster - I have seen illustrations of the Israeli method in the past but can't find any right now. Does the off-hand grasp the slide in an overhand fashion with the fingers over the top of the slide and the thumb pointing toward the rear, or in a thumb and forefinger fashion with the fingers below and the thumb on top of the pistol pointing toward the muzzle? Or is it dependent only on what works best for the user? I would guess the second method is preferred. Can you clarify?
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