Anyone have any trigger pull tips for a new Model 617?

[Riomouse911]

I have a few S&W revolvers, and I have wanted a 10-shot 6” Model 617 for a while, so I bought one last month and picked it up when I got back from my trip.

The gun itself looks good, the fit and finish is nice and I had an extra set of Thai grips to replace the OEM synthetic ones. With 10 chambers, and S&W revolvers being known for sticky extraction at times, I honed the chambers with a 800 grit flex hone. Rounds drop in and eject with ease.



My issue is the DA trigger pull. I didn’t expect it to match my often fired and long broken-in rimfire Models 17-3 or 48-3, but the gun doesn’t even come close to my newer 6-shot Model 48 Classic 4”. It was gritty, stacky and heavy out of the box, in short, Taurus-bad. (I have a Taurus 94 and 941 to compare it to.)

I pulled the side plate, polished the rough sides of the rebound slide and the area where the slide moves, installed a 14# rebound spring and lubed the action insides and the cylinder innards. The pull is better (smoother and a bit lighter), but still has a “mega-stack” that pops up like a brick wall during the middle of the DA stroke. This makes accurate DA shooting very tough.

Since it’s a rimfire I did not want to put in a lighter mainspring, as it has been 100% until a lemon round wouldn’t fire today (Win 333 bulk pack HP. I hit it 4 times in 3 spots, still no bang!).



I put 250 rounds of various .22 LR through it today, but in slow DA it was tough to keep in the black at 10 yards. This is my first 10-shot S&W, is this DA trigger stroke “wall” a common feature of these higher capacity rimfire revolvers, or does this gun just need time and use to break in and smooth out so it gets close to my six-shot S&W’s? (I will measure the DA/SA pulls tomorrow, I forgot to tonight before posting.)



Thanks for any ideas.

Stay safe.

 

[DS-10-SPEED]

The "brick wall" you are referring to might not be in the trigger mechanism, it may be the hand and ratchet. I have replaced the cylinder on one of my 10 shots with a new cylinder, they come uncut. You have to file each ratchet until the hand just passes without binding. This is not something you might want to do yourself, I made a special jig to do this. It's possible some are not filed enough, they will wear in with use. If it functions good, I would just shoot it a bunch and see if it smooths out.

The picture shows the blue ones that were fitted while the rest are uncut yet to be fitted.

You could mark the file cuts with a blue marker and then cycle the action a few times and see if the hand is rubbing the blue off.

 

[sparkyv]

Nice acquisition, Riomouse911. And nice grips! I've honed the chambers out of my older M63, but have had no sticky cases with my M617.

That WIN333 Dud is bad ammo, not a bad gun.

This is what I've done to mine, though I may have used a 12# rebound slide spring; I'll have to check my notes. I'm not a very good DA shooter, and don't know what a mega-stack means, but I thought my handiwork turned out pretty good.

I pulled the side plate, polished the rough sides of the rebound slide and the area where the slide moves, installed a 14# rebound spring and lubed the action insides and the cylinder innards. The pull is better (smoother and a bit lighter), but still has a “mega-stack” that pops up like a brick wall during the middle of the DA stroke.

 

[MrBorland]

The "brick wall" you are referring to might not be in the trigger mechanism, it may be the hand and ratchet.

I agree that it could certainly be something like this. I have a 617 that's fantastically accurate, even in DA. But...I've never been happy with the smoothness of the DA trigger, and even after many tens of thousands of rounds, it's still just so-so. I've gotten into my 686s to polish them up a bit, but never my 617. When looking at the ratchet, it's always looked pretty rough to my eye, so I've also suspected some roughness there might be adding to the hitch.

My chambers are also pretty tight, so before actually shooting, I give the cylinder a check-spin to fully seat the rounds, otherwise, they can add to the DA "hitch" as well. You polished the chambers and the rounds drop in, so that might not be as much an issue for you.

 

[Riomouse911]

The "brick wall" you are referring to might not be in the trigger mechanism, it may be the hand and ratchet. I have replaced the cylinder on one of my 10 shots with a new cylinder, they come uncut. You have to file each ratchet until the hand just passes without binding. This is not something you might want to do yourself, I made a special jig to do this. It's possible some are not filed enough, they will wear in with use. If it functions good, I would just shoot it a bunch and see if it smooths out.

The picture shows the blue ones that were fitted while the rest are uncut yet to be fitted.

You could mark the file cuts with a blue marker and then cycle the action a few times and see if the hand is rubbing the blue off.

View attachment 1165958

That makes sense, it seems to “jump” like I am staging the trigger as I overcome the wall. Reading your post it may be where the hand is interfacing with the ratchet teeth on the cylinder. I think I will see if there is an odd meeting of these parts during the cycle, if so I will seek out one more experienced than I to touch these parts up.

Is the blue on your cylinders teeth above dye-chem or another product?

Thanks!

Stay safe.

 

[Riomouse911]

Nice acquisition, Riomouse911. And nice grips! I've honed the chambers out of my older M63, but have had no sticky cases with my M617.

That WIN333 Dud is bad ammo, not a bad gun.

This is what I've done to mine, though I may have used a 12# rebound slide spring; I'll have to check my notes. I'm not a very good DA shooter, and don't know what a mega-stack means, but I thought my handiwork turned out pretty good.

A stacking trigger, in my experience, is one that gets slightly heavier as the DA trigger is cycled and nears its zenith. Some guns, Ruger or Colt for example, have a stack as the cycle is nearly completed due to their designs. (My Colt and Ruger DA’s all have this stacking tendency, YMMV as guns are truly individuals.)

This gun has a huge stack midway through the pull, so as I pull through it goes from fair, to heavy, to light again right at the end. Because it is so heavy in the middle I just used the “mega stack” vernacular only to describe how heavy it was.

I just took out my Lyman trigger gauge. It maxed the pull out before cycling, so it is over 12 lbs DA.

Stay safe.

 

[DS-10-SPEED]

Is the blue on your cylinders teeth above dye-chem or another product?

Thanks!

Stay safe.

I just use a blue permanent marker pen, I often use it for "witness marks" when machining parts. In the ratchet job it was just so I knew which ones were completed, the blue just wipes off the steel when done.

 

[MrBorland]

The "brick wall" you are referring to might not be in the trigger mechanism, it may be the hand and ratchet.

Couple of other thoughts:

I've been meaning to do this with my 617, but never got around to it: To differentiate between a hitch in the trigger mechanism and one coming from the star/ratchet, I was going to remove the sideplate, then the hand (and firing) pin and re-assemble and re-test by dry firing (stick some spent cases in there, too). If the action is improved, the star/ratchet would seem to be the culprit. If it's not improved, there's likely something in the trigger/rebound mechanism that could use attention.

If you feel a hitch on every round, the issue isn't likely a bent ejector rod, but it's easy enough to check out & eliminate as a possibility.

 

[J-Bar]

Sorry you have the problem but this is an interesting thread. I am a Bubba, not a gunsmith.

Would coating the ratchet with a generous amount of grease help identify that area as the source of stacking? (less stacking with the lubricant?)

Would coating the ratchet and hand with a polishing compound (Flitz, etc.) and then shooting the hell out of it be an alternative to filling?

Thanks for indulging dumb questions!

 

[Riomouse911]

Sorry you have the problem but this is an interesting thread. I am a Bubba, not a gunsmith.

Would coating the ratchet with a generous amount of grease help identify that area as the source of stacking? (less stacking with the lubricant?)

Would coating the ratchet and hand with a polishing compound (Flitz, etc.) and then shooting the hell out of it be an alternative to filling?

Thanks for indulging dumb questions!

Never a dumb question, the guys here have much more experience than I, which is why I post and ask for suggestions.

I put 250 rounds through it on Tuesday, mostly fast DA just to get the cycles through the gun and try to work the action. It has smoothed up a little bit, but it still has that big wall right in the middle of the DA cycle. (It’s like light to get the hammer moving, heavy as the cylinder turns then light again after the bolt locks the cylinder. So every DA shot is basically “staged” even though I am trying to pull straight through.

For the next couple of weeks I am going to put a bunch more rounds through it and keep cycling it through to see if it improves any. If not, then I will start looking at the hand/cylinder teeth interface.

Stay safe.

 

[Rodfac]

Rio....I've had measurable success with a couple of my Smith's DA triggers by pressing forward with as much force as I can muster with my support thumb while dry firing DA. With Smith's case hardened trigger et. al., it takes quite a few cycles to notice an improvement...in effect it's just like endless dry or live firing improving a trigger... with this method, the added pressure on the mating parts shortens the process, somewhat. YMMv and good luck....BTW, this worked wonders on a 5-shot M-69 Smith that came out of the box with an excessive DA trigger pull weight. Rod

 

[Jonesy814]

I have a few S&W revolvers, and I have wanted a 10-shot 6” Model 617 for a while, so I bought one last month and picked it up when I got back from my trip.

The gun itself looks good, the fit and finish is nice and I had an extra set of Thai grips to replace the OEM synthetic ones. With 10 chambers, and S&W revolvers being known for sticky extraction at times, I honed the chambers with a 800 grit flex hone. Rounds drop in and eject with ease.

View attachment 1165956

My issue is the DA trigger pull. I didn’t expect it to match my often fired and long broken-in rimfire Models 17-3 or 48-3, but the gun doesn’t even come close to my newer 6-shot Model 48 Classic 4”. It was gritty, stacky and heavy out of the box, in short, Taurus-bad. (I have a Taurus 94 and 941 to compare it to.)

I pulled the side plate, polished the rough sides of the rebound slide and the area where the slide moves, installed a 14# rebound spring and lubed the action insides and the cylinder innards. The pull is better (smoother and a bit lighter), but still has a “mega-stack” that pops up like a brick wall during the middle of the DA stroke. This makes accurate DA shooting very tough.

Since it’s a rimfire I did not want to put in a lighter mainspring, as it has been 100% until a lemon round wouldn’t fire today (Win 333 bulk pack HP. I hit it 4 times in 3 spots, still no bang!).

View attachment 1165955

I put 250 rounds of various .22 LR through it today, but in slow DA it was tough to keep in the black at 10 yards. This is my first 10-shot S&W, is this DA trigger stroke “wall” a common feature of these higher capacity rimfire revolvers, or does this gun just need time and use to break in and smooth out so it gets close to my six-shot S&W’s? (I will measure the DA/SA pulls tomorrow, I forgot to tonight before posting.)

View attachment 1165953

Thanks for any ideas.

Stay safe.

Mine wasn’t great when new but sounds like it was better than yours. I removed the side plate, polished the rebound slide and the frame section where it rides, then installed a 15# rebound spring. While I was at it I installed a Wolff reduced power mainspring. The secret to Wolff springs and round butt revolvers is that the strain screw won’t be long enough. The fix is to go to McMaster-Carr and order a pack of set screws with the nylon on the threads to lock it in place. Screw part number is 95235A507. With that you can adjust the tension on the spring until you find that spot with the lightest trigger pull but still have reliable ignition. My trigger pull is still 9.25#, but is very smooth and way better than the 11# gritty trigger it started with. I have not dialed mine down to where ignition gets iffy so maybe it works at 9# or 8.75# but am very happy with where it is now

 

[Riomouse911]

I have some Wolff reduced power mainsprings in my stash, I may go the route you suggest if the pull remains too hefty for fun.

Thanks for the strain-screw tip. I have done the expended primer cup over the screw tip trick with a Model 67 .38 Spl that needed a bit of a boost to be 100%. That little shim was just the ticket.

Stay safe.

 

[Jonesy814]

I have some Wolff reduced power mainsprings in my stash, I may go the route you suggest if the pull remains too hefty for fun.

Thanks for the strain-screw tip. I have done the expended primer cup over the screw tip trick with a Model 67 .38 Spl that needed a bit of a boost to be 100%. That little shim was just the ticket.

Stay safe.

The nice thing with the set screw is that you can make really small adjustments

 

[Japle]

Install a set of Bang, Inc springs. If you're good with machinery, get Jerry's DVD and slick up that action. One thing that Jerry told me isn't in the DVD is polishing the frame where the rebound slide slides.

 

[orionengnr]

Just an amateur guess here, but S&W has well over 100 years of experience with six-round DA revolvers and every piece therein.

Probably 60 years of experience with 5-shot DA revolvers and the geometry of every piece therein...and the J-frames are known for less sophisticated trigger pulls than the 6-rounders. Yes, I know that there are fundamental differences in spring types and other factors. I believe the principle stands.

How long has S&W been making 10-rd .22LRs, and how many have they built? Also, stainless can be a bit tougher to machine really smoothly, and smooth parts contribute to (albeit maybe do not guarantee) smooth action.

In my experience, my best S&W triggers have been blued six-shot revolvers (K-frame or N-frame). My best stainless revolver is a very well-used M66-no dash with several bazillion rounds through it. Again postulating, stainless is harder than carbon steel and may take a lot more rounds (or dry-fires) to smooth out.

 

[orionengnr]

Just an amateur guess here, but S&W has well over 100 years of experience with six-round DA revolvers and every piece therein.

Probably 60 years of experience with 5-shot DA revolvers and the geometry of every piece therein...and the J-frames are known for less sophisticated trigger pulls than the 6-rounders. Yes, I know that there are fundamental differences in spring types and other factors. I believe the principle stands.

How long has S&W been making 10-rd .22LRs, and how many have they built? Also, stainless can be a bit tougher to machine really smoothly, and smooth parts contribute to (albeit maybe do not guarantee) smooth action.

In my experience, my best S&W triggers have been blued six-shot revolvers (K-frame or N-frame). My best stainless revolver is a very well-used M66-no dash with several bazillion rounds and dry-fires through it. Again postulating, stainless is harder than carbon steel and may take a lot more rounds (or dry-fires) to smooth out.

I'm sure you know that if dry-firing a rimfire, use snap caps or spent cartridges...

 

[roval]

my 617 seems to have some chambers where the hammer falls quicker. this is more apparent if shooting it next to a m17. it seems to have gotten better or maybe i just didn't shoot them side by side recently. i haven't done anything to mine except for replacing the rebound slide spring with #12lb spring. my gun was problematic when new with out of time chambers and light primer strikes and a canted barrel and had to go back. i like it now. i made the video a couple of weeks ago with Fed Automatch.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO you can shoot better without modifying your revolver. If you can't keep them in the black that is the shooter, not the gun.

I think you should get a few sets of snap caps and dry fire hundreds of times a day. Without recoil you will quickly see what you are doing wrong and adjust your trigger pull. Start slow and once the gun no longer moves when you squeeze the trigger then increase the speed. In the end you should be able to place a nickel on top of the revolver, squeeze the trigger and not drop the nickel. I'm sure with practice you will achieve your goal.

I know because when I started shooting J frame revolvers it's exactly what I did and the added benefit, a much smoother trigger from all the trigger pulls lol.
Good luck...

 

[Riomouse911]

Just an amateur guess here, but S&W has well over 100 years of experience with six-round DA revolvers and every piece therein.

Probably 60 years of experience with 5-shot DA revolvers and the geometry of every piece therein...and the J-frames are known for less sophisticated trigger pulls than the 6-rounders. Yes, I know that there are fundamental differences in spring types and other factors. I believe the principle stands.

How long has S&W been making 10-rd .22LRs, and how many have they built? Also, stainless can be a bit tougher to machine really smoothly, and smooth parts contribute to (albeit maybe do not guarantee) smooth action.

In my experience, my best S&W triggers have been blued six-shot revolvers (K-frame or N-frame). My best stainless revolver is a very well-used M66-no dash with several bazillion rounds through it. Again postulating, stainless is harder than carbon steel and may take a lot more rounds (or dry-fires) to smooth out.

Yeah, my various K frames with 6 shots are a lot smoother, as is my 7-shot L frame 686+, but they are also a lot older. So, like your nice P&R Model 66 they all have no mim parts and have a lot more rounds through them.

I have a 10-shot 317 .22 that has a typical rimfire J frame trigger pull. It’s heavy, but it doesn’t have the weird steep wall this one has mid-stroke. (The SA on the 617 is good as is.)

I will say that I noticed with my 5-shot Ruger GP .44 the DA stroke is smoother than my 6-shot GP .357, so there certainly could be something about the geometry of the 10-shot S&W action that affects the pull. Guys use the 10-shot 617’s in rimfire competition, so there is hope that this gun’s trigger pull comes around.

Install a set of Bang, Inc springs. If you're good with machinery, get Jerry's DVD and slick up that action. One thing that Jerry told me isn't in the DVD is polishing the frame where the rebound slide slides.

I did polish the rebound slide and the sides/floor where it rides, with 1500 wet-dry and a hard backer. I also touched a couple of spots to knock down any obvious roughness, lubed it well and installed a 14# Wolff rebound spring. So, it is much smoother through the pull than it was when new. I did not alter the mainspring, but that is an easy swap in or out so that may be next. If I do swap, and it keeps it’s 100% reliability with good ammo, then that may be all the additional love it needed.

I have dry-fired the 617 a bit more over the past few days with wall anchor snap caps or by catching the hammer before it hits the firing pin. Stuff is smoothing but the wall remains.

Again, thanks for the replies.

Stay safe.

 

[Riomouse911]

IMO you can shoot better without modifying your revolver. If you can't keep them in the black that is the shooter, not the gun.

I think you should get a few sets of snap caps and dry fire hundreds of times a day. Without recoil you will quickly see what you are doing wrong and adjust your trigger pull. Start slow and once the gun no longer moves when you squeeze the trigger then increase the speed. In the end you should be able to place a nickel on top of the revolver, squeeze the trigger and not drop the nickel. I'm sure with practice you will achieve your goal.

I know because when I started shooting J frame revolvers it's exactly what I did and the added benefit, a much smoother trigger from all the trigger pulls lol.
Good luck...

Yeah, dry fire certainly can help. I bought a bunch of wall anchors at Ace for rimfire dry firing, so far so good.

I’ve been shooting revolvers for a little while, started with a .357 Taurus M-66 in 1987 and really never stopped. Between the 35-ish DA revolvers of various makes and calibers (from .22 to .454) currently in the safes, I can say I have had a little bit of exposure to some different DA guns. Best part is being a S&W and Ruger DA revolver armorer; along with shooting them I can take them down, reassemble and diagnose/troubleshoot stuff. (If it comes to custom fitting hands/cylinders, or fixing a warped crane, etc., I leave that to the professionals.)

I’m no gunsmith, nor do I shoot DA revolvers like a bullseye competitor, so will I ever claim to be all seeing/all knowing/all doing. This is my first 10-shot K frame revolver, which is why I was posing the questions about this particular revolvers trigger pull..

My two Taurus DA rimfire revolvers a (94 and 941) both have a very stiff trigger pull from start to finish, which is a common complaint about these particular Taurus guns. The Taurus’ pulls are much more than any of my other DA rimfires, which are a Dan Wesson .22 LR, K-frame S&W’s 17, 18, 48, 48 and J-frames 317 & 34. This Model 617 is the only S&W I own with a wicked wall that hits mid-stoke through the DA pull, which is making accurate DA shooting a bit difficult. I was wondering if it is normal for these guns or if it is an outlier.

Thanks again for the replies.

Stay safe.

 

[film495]

can't you hold the cylinder release and work the trigger with the cylinder open? this would help you isolate component part is not smooth; hand/wrachet vs. trigger parts; during double action.

 

[Riomouse911]

can't you hold the cylinder release and work the trigger with the cylinder open? this would help you isolate component part is not smooth; hand/wrachet vs. trigger parts; during double action.

Of course. It works the insides, which are smoothing out as it is being dry fired.

The stack has never been as pronounced this way, leading me to believe it’s primarily in the trigger-hand-cylinder interface. This may be one of those things that takes time to wear in. I’m going to the range (hopefully) today, another 250 through it will let me see how (if?) the gun is improving.

Stay safe.

 

[film495]

I've never done it, but it makes me wonder if you could polish the hand or lightly stone where the hand grabs the cylinder, but I'm not sure I'd do it as the timing could be affected. Oh, one time with a revolver I had some issues with it binding, so the trigger pull was all of a sudden horrible. It went from the best trigger I'd ever fired to ***, something is wrong with this thing. Without knowing it I had put a ding on the right side where the frame lines up with the cylinder. When the cylinder went around some brass would some brass would catch the burr from the ding that was there and my smooth trigger pull all of a sudden would feel like mud, and inconsistent mud. It took a while to figure it out, but I'm glad I did. I just stoned it off smooth and put a touch of cold blue on it.

 

[Riomouse911]

I've never done it, but it makes me wonder if you could polish the hand or lightly stone where the hand grabs the cylinder, but I'm not sure I'd do it as the timing could be affected. Oh, one time with a revolver I had some issues with it binding, so the trigger pull was all of a sudden horrible. It went from the best trigger I'd ever fired to ***, something is wrong with this thing. Without knowing it I had put a ding on the right side where the frame lines up with the cylinder. When the cylinder went around some brass would some brass would catch the burr from the ding that was there and my smooth trigger pull all of a sudden would feel like mud, and inconsistent mud. It took a while to figure it out, but I'm glad I did. I just stoned it off smooth and put a touch of cold blue on it.

Yeah, there is a lot going on with a DA trigger pull. When one thing gets out of whack it can lead to drastic changes in the pull, or even a complete stoppage. I expected the pull to be a bit gritty when new, it seems like this is a new normal with many gunmakers today.

I first thought that high case heads dragging on the recoil shield were the issue, but even ammo I have had issues with due to being oversized will seat fully. (Ahem…Browning…Ahem) I honed the chambers and ammo insertion/extraction is very smooth and complete for a ten shot rimfire so this doesn’t seem to be the case.

I let the guys at my local indoor range try the trigger before I posted (one is a S&W armorer like I am) and both said this gun seemed odd how it moves through the trigger cycle.

I’ll keep trying stuff to smooth the DA cycle out, thanks again for the suggestions.

Stay safe.