Anyone Read "Blackwater"?

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DogBonz

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I am currently reading “Blackwater” “the rise of the world’s most powerful mercenary army” by Jeremy Scahill. and was wondering if anyone has read this book and would like to share their views on it or the author.

Now, I am usually not in line with the tinfoil hattery club’s way of thinking, but the author brings up some scary points. I know that the author has his own agenda, but we all have our agendas. My thoughts revolve around how in natural disasters the Gov’t was so quick to bring in private “security” personnel in NOLA, and how these type of contractors are by and large protected from prosecution. Throw in the suspension of Habeas Corpus and the passage of the Military Commission’s Act, coupled with the federal Gov’t increasing use of troops on US soil, how do you think that this will affect the 2A in the future or during a natural disaster?

The author seems to be presenting the idea (I am not that far into the book yet) that this growing organization, which is run by one man, is bent on reshaping our country/ Gov’t.

What do you guys think?
 
did the blackwater folks do anything other than protect private residences?

did they participate in the disarmament of law-abiding NOLA residents?

any reports of blackwater folks brutalizing anyone?

my impression was they were private security hired by the well-heeled to guard homes, and nothing more. please correct me if i'm wrong.
 
30 Cal

As I said, I have not gotten that far in the book yet, but he did say that the blackwater guys were on contract with the Department of Homeland Security, which was denied by the federal government at first and then latter admitted. I have to read more, but he also states that the “Gov-anator, Arnold, has meet with the owner to discuss handling the aftermath of an earth quake.

I too am most concerned with the confiscations, and will report as to weather or not Blackwater men had a hand in that.
 
i think scahill really let his agenda show with this one...
ugh, i can wade through biased writing, but when it's written this
poorly, it gets tough.
how many times does he allude to prince being a "christian fundamentalist"?
i lost count.
repetitive and slanted, [but i'm still glad i read it.
the possibility of the federal govt using contractors here, as they do in
other countries (basically having little or no accountability) is frightening.
the links with the current administration?
like-minded groups will work together.
if there was a private security group dedicated to advancing socialism, firearm confiscation,
and proliferation of the welfare state, they would be the ones to get the govt contracts while a liberal was in office.
not a very nice scenario...
so, long story longer, there are definite dangers involved in this world of civilian contracting, but working through this author's work is slow-going.
on the same subject, i recommend robert young pelton's "licence to kill: hired guns in the war on terror".
pelton gets up-close and personal with his subject matter (contractors), and manages to write without looking down his nose at them.
 
this growing organization, which is run by one man, is bent on reshaping our country/ Gov’t.
Click to expand...

What do I think?

I think that's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

I'd say he probably wants his business to be outrageously successful and for it to reap a big fat profit for himself. He probably would just as soon have the US government do things in ways that would boost his bottom line, like every other contractor. Also, he probably wants his collection of brand-new NFA guns that most of us can't get. He probably enjoys this s**t immensely, maybe enough to make a lot of people really uncomfortable.

But I doubt he's stupid enough to WANT to take over.

Perhaps "reshape" means "influence", not "control". Well, Oleg and most of us here are interested in "reshaping" some things, too. That's called democracy. The author also wants to "reshape" things. So what?
 
I personally feel that Blackwater probably has military ties and shareing of various things of some sorts because of the many branches of the government who train with them.
Because of the close Government ties, I think this is done to prevent them from somehow forming there own militia, not to mention there are so many ex military there I don't think they would uprise, well unless of course obama or hillary get elected well..
oh btw if your interested in reading up I would suggest A Bloody Business by Colonel Gerald Schumacher
 
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I haven't read the book, but I've followed the issues surrounding BlackWater enough to be very, very concerned with them.

When pursued legally by civilians, their response is "technically, we're covered by the government, can't touch us".

When questioned by the government, they insist they are not subject to the UCMJ, because they are civilians.

Scary stuff.
 
I don't know about the civilians who persued them legally, but I would guess that they would be groups like "clearwater", or anti war groups that would give them an response as they did.
I can relate to being a little concerned about there response to the govt about not being covered by the UCMJ, but if the government uses them to train I would guess they are aware of this too, and perhaps they use it to there benefit maybe?, who knows, it is an interesting enterprise though in a new age of warware and politics
 
I don't know about the civilians who persued them legally, but I would guess that they would be groups like "clearwater"
Click to expand...

The first real civilian pursuit of blackwater was by families of blackwater employees who were killed in Iraq, as a direct result of disregard for their own policies. The family members were told, in essence, if they wanted a reckoning, to sue blackwater for the info. Then BW turned to the govt and claimed they couldnt be sued in a civil court because they operate under the umbrella of a military contract.
 
I'm almost done with it. Scahill has a seriously left wing (to the point of being hysterical) agenda. He is freaked out by the vast right wing, hyper religious Christian conspiracy.

Filtering that out (when he is not ranting), he makes some pretty good points about the incompetence of most of our political involvement and decisions in Iraq, the incompetent (wasting my tax dollars) IG oversight of spending in Iraq, and the outsourcing/privatization of military support roles.

Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bremer threw tons of business at Blackwater (and other contractor/merc orgs) with little or no bidding/oversight. These folks were set up to provide security for embassy staff, foodservice workers, reconstruction workers. They are not subject to UCMJ, they are not subject to US criminal prosecution, and Bremer's farewell kiss was to immunize them from Iraqi criminal or civil liability. They could basically do what the heck they wanted with no consequence. They whacked a significant number of Iraqis. If I was an Iraqi citizen, I think I would have a problem with that.

Domestically, they did deploy to NOLA. Mostly provided security to high net worth individuals. Also provided protection for some companies and their employees. Ensconced themselves in French Quarter hotel and acted like a$$holes. Cops and FBI apparently put an end to that pretty quickly. There is a reference to a brief night time firefight they were alleged to be involved in.

Again, as a citizen, I'm not all that comfortable with a private, well armed, paramilitary force that thinks they have ANY right to (or role in) engage in civil disturbances beyond immediate self/property protection.
 
I'd say he probably wants his business to be outrageously successful and for it to reap a big fat profit for himself. He probably would just as soon have the US government do things in ways that would boost his bottom line, like every other contractor. Also, he probably wants his collection of brand-new NFA guns that most of us can't get. He probably enjoys this s**t immensely, maybe enough to make a lot of people really uncomfortable.
Click to expand...
I agree 100%...I've never met the man, in fact I've only read Scahill
and Pelton's books on the subject, but from what I can tell, Prince has
a specific vision for America, and as a very successful businessman with numerous gov't connections,
he is taking advantage of his opportunities to
influence this country (while making tons of money and enjoying his job).

More power to him.
In fact, I don't disagree with too many of his viewpoints or opinions.

The danger lies in the fact that the next up-and-coming organization
may not have any moral compass; if no one can be held accountable
for the actions of a company's contractors, it sets a dangerous precedent.
 
I think using Blackwater on CONUS is too far down a ver-r-r-y slippery slope, without advance rules about their chain of command and responsible parties.

Noxx is right about their two-faced approach to accountability. I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that police and the National Guard have responsible chains of command. Even if we sometimes disagree with their actions, usually (NOLA a notable exception) we know who's in charge and legally responsible.

But Blackwater (and their clones) -- nada. *Those* guys are the jack-booted thugs everyone should be worried about, not the police or feds. There's a different level of intensity between Blackwater and your local mall security, even though they may both be referred to as private security.
 
Tried to read it but my bias meter pegged out early on and I flung it aside.

However there are concerns about that sort of ad hoc, paramilitary--okay, essentially mercenary organizations.

A much, much better book for the money that addresses this and a lot of other things coming down the line is "The Transformation of War" by Martin van Creveld. You can probably find it at Amazone, new or used. He predicts that as the nation-state goes into decline (loss of legitimacy, credibility) that a lot of functions previously carried out by governments will fall to private enterprise. His analogy is 14th century Florence, with a need for a scorecard to tell who the principal players are from day to day.

He may be on to something. This is probably symptomatic of a lot of things.
 
Private armies

EDITED BECAUSE I APPARENTLY DID NOT READ THE "CHANGES AT THR" POST WHICH SAYS:

Special care must be taken to ensure that we appear as reasonable and peaceable to the world as possible. Antis are sure to pluck even a rare example of uncivil, bigoted or Rambo conduct out of context and use against us. With that in mind, make sure that remedy of shooting anyone is only considered if all other legal options are exhausted. No more "feed the hogs!" or "from my cold dead hands!" If we ever come to that, the last thing you want is a discussion of tactics in an open forum, where the likely opposition can read and which they can use to justify bigger budgets and heavier armor.
 
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You shoudl read it

45Badgers post is pretty much on the money. I sorta afraid of govt. hired private milititias. For what it's worth=some of my firends think that I'm so conservative that I seem liberal.
 
Why worry about Blackwater in CONUS? There's no more Posse Comitatus, so the POTUS can use troops in the US.
 
There is still Posse Comitatus despite the Patriot Act changes and Blackwater would have a difficult time avoiding civil liability for their actions in the U.S. (to my knowledge no other government contractor operating in the U.S. has been able to avoid liability on that basis).
 
I can only comment on Blackwater in NOLA as I have done a fair amount of research after reading some pretty far out claims on this very board.

1. Blackwater was in NOLA long before they were offered any Government contracts. The day after the levees broke, Blackwater bought a helicopter and sent a bunch of men to nola. When asked why, Prince said because he could.

They carried water, and rescued a lot of people, before the Government even got the ball rolling.

Ensconced themselves in French Quarter hotel and acted like a$$holes. Cops and FBI apparently put an end to that pretty quickly.
Click to expand...

The above statement is 100% wrong. What actually happened was they threw a bunch of looters out of a hotel and set up base camp there. The lady who owns the hotel was so impressed, she put Blackwater on retainer, and to this day, there is a Blackwater flying in front of this hotel.

2. The first paid contract in NOLA offered was from AT&T after a bunch of substations were looted.

3. The only Federal Governement contract offered to Blackwater was from FEMA. They still have a small number of men there today.

4. Indeed, some Blackwater emplyees were Deputized. I don't know if they preformed any actual LE duties.

5. Blackwater claims to have been involved in zero firefights in NOLA. There are many conflicting reports about this. I think they may have been involved in a few.

I will post more tomorrow. Im not allowed to type after the Spousal unit goes to sleep.:eek: :D
 
I really wouldn't worry about Blackwater coming after us. In any future crisis in the US, Blackwater would be used to secure buildings and valuable locations (either public or private). They are honestly too expensive to be used to wander around and disarm people- they are very specific to a mission; especially defending locations, people, or convoys.

You have to think of their role geopolitically. The interesting thing is what happens when Blackwater is hired to do a mission that possibly conflicts with U.S. foreign policy? Allegedly there is a gentlemen's agreement to avoid this, and obviously Blackwater wants to keep U.S. contracts, but how can we define what clashes with foreign policy? What if Russia brought them in to run missions in Chechnya? Sure, on paper they are fighting Muslim terrorists, but what if the mission becomes blurred- the Russia gov tells them to take out a civilian village and don't question the orders, etc. There could be a huge gray area.

Anyone see "The Shooter"? In it, oil companies hire a special forces for-hire group to wipe out a village so they can drill there. Are we sure that couldn't happen?

So the bottom line, is the contraversy with Blackwater won't happen in the U.S., it will happen when they are hired someday to engage in a mission that either A) clashes with U.S. national interests or B) is morally dubious, but the price is right and enough people are looking the other way.
 
Its reassuring to know that you can sue them if they kill you, isn't it.
Click to expand...

Aren't those pretty much the same rules that apply to you? What would happen if you killed me? You would be charged with a crime and my estate would sue you for whatever you were worth. Seems to me like Blackwater is in the same position as any other private citizen.
 
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