blackwater in NOLA

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So you are saying that all the FBI agents, DOJ personnel, CIA personnel, DOS personnel, DEA agents that are working in Iraq and Afghanistan (Since they are not wearing a uniform and do not fall under UCMJ) are mercenaries? No, they are employees of the US Government fighting against the war on terror.

The US Military is only one area of our government that is engaged in the GWOT.

There are many US Citizens fighting for our country overseas, defeding against terrorism in many different ways. And putting their lives online as they take high risk assignments.
 
According to Webster's Dictionary:

Mercenary:

1. one who serves or work solely for financial gain, money 2. professional soldier who is hired to perform military duties in a foreign army.

So by these definitions, BW employees would not be considered Mercenarys. Because, 1. I do not know any that are just doing it for the money (maybe a few, just as there are a few who join the US Army just for college fund or money). Most BW guys are working in Iraq to support and serve the US and of course as with any job or service they are earning a paycheck in accordance with their skills and expereince. The money is only a minor part. Patriotism is what calls you to go risk your life.
2. THey are not serving in a foreign army. Are US Citizens working for the US Government.
 
My tinfoil to me! :D

SR, I went to do my banking and I saw a mercenary standing in the lobby looking bored; however, after reading this insightful article I now know he was plotting to attack me (well, me or a turkey sandwhich at lunch). :D

Mercenaries are soldiers for hire in a foreign army. Blackwater, or any other contractors, are not this, overseas or here at home.

The Hessians in service of the British Empire were mercenaries. Blackwater employees are contractors doing a job under contractual obligation of the United States.

If the US DoD hired, e.g., a regiment of the 151st Rock-Throwing (Light) Infantry of the 135th Armoured Shoe Division of Fruitloopistan, the Frutiloopistani troops would be mercenaries.
 
100s of BW employees from America in Iraq are not a "foreign army"? They're
not doing it for a pay, ie "financial gain" that is far in excess of uniformed
soldiers (or even those alphabet soup federal employess who never leave the
wire around the IZ)? How is BW different from EO?

Again, I'm not putting a value judgement on what they do, but to say that
what they're doing doesn't match the definititon of the word and that some
other word from a new strain of Politically Correct spin-speech should be
used is....fine by me. Especially if it brings more peace and security to this
world ;)
 
SR, I went to do my banking and I saw a mercenary standing in the lobby looking bored; however, after reading this insightful article I now know he was plotting to attack me...

Yeah, that was me, sorry for the scare!
Dan "The Mercenary Banker" Flory :evil:
 
Again for the third time. Most BW employees are not their own private army. They are ex-us military SOF personnel who are contracted out by the US State Department and Dept of Defense to provide diplomatic security for high ranking US personnel.

Yes, BW guys are paid more than soldiers. But that is common, many officers retire after 20 years of service and go on to high level managment positions in companies that pay far more than they received as officers. Same thing, former Spec Ops soldiers get out and based on their years and years of experience get higher paying job. Many of the risk they take in Iraq are far greater than most Active duty military personnel take as they travel with less support, no air support, etc... Also, because they are civilians and not military, they are not tax exempt from being in a combat zone. They get high pay, but so do our full time FBI, DOS, CIA, etc personnel who are working in Iraq (they get their base salary, plus usually 25% HAZ DUTY plus another 25% post differnecial plus per diem).
 
El Tejon, don't worry we will make that Mercenary who threatned you run the Gauntlet again tonight. :what:

I will bring my Bean Bag rounds for my shotgun :eek:
 
However, it does seem they can be hired directly by
either governmental agencies, private corporations, or
even private individuals (NOLA) --whoever can pay their
price, whereas to my knowledge "soldiers" can only be
hired directly by the first. Granted, like any other
business BW can probably pick and choose whose contract
they'd like to take, whereas it can be said that a
soldier gets little or no say in accepting a mission.

This will help me out:
If a US person leaves military service in Iraq and is later
hired directly by one of the following along with say 100
other former soldeirs from his unit, which if any, would
qualify them as "mercenaries" under your interpretation of
its meaning if they went back to Iraq:

A) Iraqi Government
B) US Gov't
C) Provincial Gov't of Kurdistan
D) XYZ Logistics Corp (publicly held shares in many countries)
E) Ed's T-Wall Cement Mixing (privately owned by US citizen)
F) Ali Akbar's Grocery (owned by an Iraqi national)

Considering that the "armed men" working for EO were commonly
referred to as "mercenaries" by just about everyone except
those who wrote their checks, those who cashed them, and
whatever govermental factions nominally sanctioned them, I'm
just trying to understand the difference now in the current
line-up of players on our big blue marble.

In all seriousness, I'm really not trying to kick someone's puppy
on the topic. There's no value judgement on the occupation
either. Maybe EO could have done a great job in Iraq, too.
They might have been able to expand their ranks with former
professional soldiers from across the globe and handled the
insurgency better in places. Who knows!
 
If a ex-US military memeber was hired directly by the Iraqi government or another foreigner in a foreign country to work, then they would meet the criteria as a mercenary. For example, I was looking into a job several months ago that was being directly hired by the UAE government. They were hiring ex-US SF and ex-brit SAS to teach their governments counter terrorist team. IF I would have taken that job, I would have been an ex-US soldier employed by a foriegn government to train their military- I would meet the definition of mercenary. If Uncle Mohhamend, an Afghistan citizen, hires me to provided security for his power plant in Kabul, then I would also be considered a mercenary. But, If I am working for BW on contract to the US Dept of state or other US governmental organization, and I am issued a Diplomatic Passport by the US government (as BW personnel working on those details are) or I am working on a contract for the DOD in Iraq and am issued a DOD CAC card and a GS rating (as i was before personnally) then I would not be considered a mercenary, but a US Citizen employeed by his government. If a BW guy is employed by a US bussiness in New Orleans or elsewhere to provide security for the bussiness's personel or property, then he is neither a mercenary or a government employess, but a security guard earning a salary just as eeryone else is.
 
El Tejon, don't worry we will make that Mercenary who threatned you run the Gauntlet again tonight.

I will bring my Bean Bag rounds for my shotgun

Great as if getting hit by a medicine ball while I had my eyes closed wasn't bad enough... ;)
 
Blackwater Security

all,
I work for BellSouth in a planning capacity and have worked closely with our corporate security team during Katrina. BellSouth hired Blackwater security to help guard our tent cities, generators and staff moving about in the city. There were some very hairy moments for Bellsouth employess during the first 24 hours (generator trucks hijacked, random shootings and riots at storage facilities). Blackwater was hired asap to protect the companies assets.

Apparently they do a good job, we have not lost an asset since they were brought in. It is INTERESTING to see a BST Tech riding in a flat boat with a well armed "guard".
 
This whole discussion has me really confused.

I don't know how things work in Louisiana, but in Florida, in order for a person to be called "private security" he has to take and pass a class that details exactly what he can and can not do under Florida law. Florida law also prescribes what kind of arms he is legally allowed to employ (and "M4" ain't on the list!).

His employer is required to procure bonding and insurance, and there's bunches of red tape to go through. I have to assume that the only way these security forces would be allowed to operate in the way that's being described is if they were, in fact, deputized by the local Sheriff or Governor. Heck, even LEO's that enter the state have no "official" standing unless on official duty that's been recognized by the chief law enforcement official in whatever jurisdiction they're operating in.

I wouldn't call these guys "mercs", but I wouldn't call 'em "security guards", either... In fact, I prolly wouldn't call 'em at all, except maybe to offer a tall cold one for doing dirty, dangerous work that lets us all rest a bit easier at night....

And when the rubber meets the road, that's what really counts.
 
I don't know how things work in Louisiana, but in Florida, in order for a person to be called "private security" he has to take and pass a class that details exactly what he can and can not do under Florida law. Florida law also prescribes what kind of arms he is legally allowed to employ (and "M4" ain't on the list!).

Florida has the most draconian security laws in the nation, up to and including a provision that restricts security guards to .38 special revolvers. The rest of the country works very differently. If they stay on private property they dont need any licensure at all, and if they are deputized by the state then they are sworn offircers.
 
Yes, BW guys are paid more than soldiers.
Here's what I don't get: They make more than soldiers. And they're paid by the gov't with our tax dollars. So aren't we paying more to get the same job done as if we used active duty military personnel?
 
Sam,

It would seem the litmus test here for you is if the person is hired by the US
gov't and carries a CAC --even if they are performing their skills in a
foreign land. What would you have considered the Hessians hired by the
British Crown during the American Revolution?
 
Here's what I don't get: They make more than soldiers. And they're paid by the gov't with our tax dollars. So aren't we paying more to get the same job done as if we used active duty military personnel?

Not really.

We have to house, feed, clothe, train, provide health insurance, benefits, retirement, G.I. Bill, etc for soldiers. We just write a check to BW for their guys.
 
The Hessians were tasked with and actively carrying out the primary objective of soldiers--To meet with and destroy enemy personel and material, that to me is the big difference
 
Thinblack line: The hessians were mercenaries. They were foreign soldiers hired by a different military and country. Basically, the Nepalli Ghurkas are also mercenaries (and god troopss) as they are Nepalli citizens, hired and trained to work for Great Britain, and most in the French Foreign Legion are mercenaries because they are not french citizens who sign up to fight for france.

BW guys, are US Citizens working contracts for US governement and are given US Dimplomatic Passports or CAC cards. Foreign troops that are employed as security by a US company overseas are not given that benifit.

One asked why is the US govt hiring security when the Army should be doing that job for much less. Well, I think a previous poster posted the long term finanacial reasons. It is also this, we are extremely spread thin with regards to special operations troops. And they are not doing military roles, but civilian roles, such as diplomatic security ( the DOS dimplomatic security service is stretched very very thin now also). Of course maybe if many of the THR posters who are into guns would go and enlist (the age requirement has been bumped up to 40) then that would relieve the strain. Many of the jobs BW performs though could not be done by a new 19 year old recruit. Many of the Teir One and Teir Two positions performed by BW and other PMCs require 6-8 years Special Operations background.
 
Basically, the Nepalli Ghurkas are also mercenaries (and god troopss) as they are Nepalli citizens, hired and trained to work for Great Britain, and most in the French Foreign Legion are mercenaries because they are not french citizens who sign up to fight for france.

These two groups are Uniformed soliders that are enlisted in the armed forces of a particular nation. I think one of the primary differences between a mercenary and a soldier is that a mercenary can say "i quit" and go home, a soldier cannot.

There are soldiers in the United States military that are not yet U.S. citizens, are these men mercenaries?
 
There are soldiers in the United States military that are not yet U.S. citizens, are these men mercenaries?
If they are in our military they are resident aliens at least.
they just can't vote or serve jury duty but they still are our soldiers
 
History will be the Judge

I guess we'll just see how history addresses the members of BW, ISI,
EO, etc. Maybe the term "mercenary" won't be in use. Just like
"free-lancer" or "henchmen" are no longer in use to describe armed
men offering a service. Maybe "Security Contractors" who are part
of a "Private Military Company" will become the mainstream terms in
the future for the West.

Who knows. We'll have to leave it for our grandchildren to debate.

Yours Truly,

Thin Black Line, [No other title]
 
The Second Part Of The Story

Here's the ad Blackwater is running:

NEW ORLEANS SECURITY OPPORTUNITIES
Blackwater USA has an immediate need for Security Professionals for the New Orleans area. Interested candidates must posses the following:
Current Law Enforcement Officer (if not current, must have maintained credentials and been separated or retired within the last two years.)
At least 4 years Military Experience with duties involving carrying a weapon
Ability to commit to a 30 day contract
There are visible, physical standard requirements, must be in excellent health, Height and Weight proportionate and readily able to pass a physical training standard.
This opportunity is for immediate deployment. Earning potential up to $9000 a month. Interested, qualified candidates, contact Blackwater at 252-435-2488 ext 360 and forward resume to [email protected]

:what: Sounds pretty "mercinary" to me - not!

Blackwater In Louisiana, Pt. II
Written 9/17/05
By: Frank Borelli
Reporting again:

Friday and most of Saturday (Sept 9th and 10th) were spent on the same site in Gretna. On Friday afternoon there were some shots fired out of the Projects that were nearby and a host of Gretna police officers, supported by volunteer cops from all over the United States, showed up. I have to give some credit to these cops. Under normal circumstances, patrol officers secure a perimeter and let SWAT hunt for people shooting (exempting Active Shooter scenarios). Due to the circumstances that surrounded New Orleans since Katrina gave it a new face, the patrol cops are the front line troops that have to handle anything that comes along. All of us operate to our strengths. Some of them are / were capable of hunting; others aren't. They all acted professionally. My partner and I on that site assisted with bringing solution to that incident. Oddly enough we were both better equipped and, by and large, better trained than those on the scene.

Saturday afternoon saw our relief arrive. We spent about twenty minutes giving them a brief on the situation there and then headed out. That evening / night we were to be housed in a hotel in downtown New Orleans located at the intersection of Poydras and Carondelet. That's about two or three blocks off Bourbon Street and from what I was told, Bourbon Street has never been cleaner than it was right then. We got to the hotel, got cleaned up and headed down to the lobby to see what was going on. We were promptly issued an escort assignment to pick up some supplies in Covington - about an hour away from New Orleans under current circumstances.

Going out it was daylight. Coming back it wasn't. We took a wrong turn once we were back into New Orleans proper and that was when we ended up on Bourbon Street. I have to say that it didn't really appeal to me in the dark. I know the city had been evacuated but I also knew that there were plenty of ner-do-wells still lurking about. Driving down a narrow street that is lined by second and third story balconies for blocks at a time just made me feel like a sitting duck. At one point we tried a turn off of Bourbon that put us at a dead end. Two burned out buildings on either side and one essentially collapsed in front of us. Car hulks were scattered around. Thankfully our driver was fresh home from Iraq and didn't waste any time backing us out of there. Three blocks later we were back at the hotel.

Saturday night and Sunday morning were rather relaxed. The food we ate was brought in by the client from their building next door. In fact, if we wanted to, we could go next door to eat at their facilities on the twelfth floor. That inspired some of us to joke about opening a restaurant called "The Twelfth Floor Next Door". When you're tired enough that's just funny as hell.

Sunday afternoon I volunteered to ride along as escort on a food supply run. We loaded up the back end of a Ford Excursion and took the food, drinks, fruit, etc out to an outlying camp housing mostly firemen from all over the U.S. On the way we ran across an open draw bridge. Our truck was full of perishable items and we inquired as to how long the bridge would be open. Due to the fact that it took fifteen minutes to open and ten minutes to close, anytime they open it they tend to leave it open for an hour. The city workers were nice enough to sympathize with our situation and left it open only a half hour.

After getting the food stuffs delivered we had a rather relaxed ride back. It was still daylight and in two trucks we have five long guns and five handguns. Once again, while the city was reportedly evacuated, that's not an accurate term. Several thousand people still remained in and around New Orleans and a large number of them live at, or below, poverty income levels. Many of them choose to.

Sunday evening was an early night because we had received our next assignment for a security detail. Monday morning we were up at 0500 and out the door by 0600. At 0700 we arrived at our post at Oschner Medical Center, a hospital in Jefferson Parish. A FEMA Disaster Medical Assistance Team (DMAT) had set up there to provide emergency medical services as well as inoculations. They were giving Tetanus, Hepatitis A and Hepatitis B shots.

The situation in New Orleans is so fluid that adapting plans to meet the challenge is almost impossible. We were supposed to be on the hospital site for twelve hours and we ended up there 3.5 days. It wasn't anybodies fault. That's just how things evolve in such situations. The first DMAT team we worked with was from South Carolina and they were good folks. Up until Sunday night they had their security provided by a federal agency that I won't specify. The protection agents that were assigned there did some interesting things from the security services point of view. They pointed every light IN at the tents the DMAT was working in and they made plans to hunker down in that lit area if any shots got fired.

Shots fired was a realistic possibility. In fact, it happened Sunday night before we arrived. When we got there we coordinated our efforts with the National Guardsmen that were on the site (Puerto Rican unit that spoke mostly Spanish - thank God for those that spoke English). We also coordinated with the hospital security staff.

Monday evening I took a perimeter tour and found a few spots that I felt were too open. One side of the hospital property bordered a residential community and all of the houses there had bars on the first floor windows. That's a hint. Across the street was an old hotel, now active as a boarding house and commonly referred to by the locals as a crack house. Another hint. This wasn't a good neighborhood before Katrina hit. It hadn't gotten any better except that some of the people had left.

We made a few changes and the DMAT Commander on site gave us free reign where security was concerned. Apparently, the security people that had bailed out Sunday night knew they were being replaced by Blackwater personnel and made the statement, "If Blackwater is coming, you'll be ok. They're the best in the business." It's kind of cool when federal security employees make those kinds of statements.

Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday passed in somewhat of a blur. There were two of us on site to provide 24 hour security. It was funny to listen to the National Guardsmen complain about working six hour shifts on with only twelve hours off. My partner and I did sixty hours on, sleeping minimally as we could. I think I got about five hours in there somewhere. Along the way, the DMAT teams gave thousands of shots each day and filled hundreds of prescriptions for the hospital's emergency room.

Wednesday afternoon saw the addition of two more Blackwater personnel and the changing of schedule at the DMAT site. A team from Georgia took over on Wednesday and the site closed at night, only giving shots from 0700 through 2300. We managed a nice rotation and I got about six hours of sleep Wednesday night.

Thursday my partner and I were relieved and taken to a camp near Memorial Stadium which I THINK is near Louisiana State University. There was an Army Reserve center across the street. Friday morning we were packed and headed out.

Both of us were on a two week contract with Blackwater. We started our travel on the 4th and ended our travel on the 17th. Others that we initially traveled down with extended and are there for another two weeks. A police officer from one of our neighboring agencies in Maryland arrived on Friday the 16th and was committed to 30 days.

As we were leaving the situation was still rapidly changing. News agencies (from what I've seen) have been busy reporting how great everything is going and how soon the city will be recovered. When I left the hospital on Thursday the 15th, I still wouldn't have gone outside a secure perimeter after dark without being armed. Many places still remained in need of survey, body clean up, etc. While reports have said that all the water will be pumped out by October 2nd, that isn't the end of a bad situation. The dust that is left over when the water dries is also toxic. The water contained a happy mixture of petro-chemicals, mercury (from where I don't know) and sewage. "Water" is a loose term that describes what one team mate called "toxic gravy". I think that term is more accurate.

As I was leaving the hospital on Thursday I knew that pack dogs were still out moving freely about at night. Lots of low-to-no income families were inhabiting the area around the hospital. Each day saw fourteen National Guardsmen and four Blackwater personnel securing the hospital grounds. The hospital itself was being guarded by a team of six to ten security guards.

The situation there is still rapidly evolving and I don't think anyone can reasonably say what it will be like at the end of the month much less the end of the year. My personal belief is that the city administrators and other government folks are in way too much of a hurry to push people back into the city. I understand that people want to go home but I'm not sure their homes will be safe, or the lifestyle containing any quality or value until several more weeks in the future. Sure, call me a "nay-sayer", but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Many of the people returning are going to run into simple daily challenges that will further tax an already over-burdened system. Reality is what it is.

I am contemplating a return after a week or so. If so, I'll update. If not, I'll do my best to impartially report what I get from the friends I still have on the ground there. An equipment review will return next week - and it will be on a host of equipment that I used while there. Be safe.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
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While have not spoken with any of the BW guys that are down here members of my unit have. We know where and what they are protecting and who is in charge. They are armed as well or better than we are and have "roamed" some of the neighborhood. We allow them this freedom to allow them not to be surprised. We have not had any problems with them affecting any of our missions to date.
 
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