Anyone run stiffer recoil springs in there Government sized 1911's

Status
Not open for further replies.
Then why would a heavier spring cause shorter ejection of the empty casing? And what is the real reason why pistols that have reputations for heavy recoil springs sometimes jam until the springs take a set or break in?

I appreciate your knowledge and assure you that I'm not trying to argue, but this is the first time I've ever heard someone say this and I'd like to learn the truth about this.

EDIT: nevermind, I wrote this before post 49 was posted.
 
I think a couple of definitions are needed here:

Velocity is basically speed. It's the rate of movement.

Acceleration is the CHANGE in velocity. It's how quickly you get to a higher velocity.

While the recoil spring won't affect acceleration to any appreciable amount, it WILL affect velocity by decelerating the slide as the spring is compressed.
 
JROC...The forward movement of the slide is stopped by the lower lug feet hitting the slidestop crosspin and in turn by the crosspin hitting the forward edges of the holes in the frame that the pin passes through. The link...the "loop"...isn't involved in it.

While the action/recoil spring and the mainspring and hammer mass do play a role...and they do have an influence...their effect is very small compared to the brakes that are applied when the bullet is being rammed through the barrel.
 
Scimma...Yes. The spring does decelerate the slide. Anything that can have an effect as an outside force will do just that. The point here is that decelerating the slide is an incidental part of the spring's function that comes as a result of being compressed. Gotta compress it so it can perform its true function.

If someone were to devise a hydraulic or pneumatic piston mechanism that would return the slide to battery, the spring could be eliminated altogether. Until that technology emerges, we have to depend on springs.
 
Tuner, no one has approached the firing pin stop. I believe that would be germain to the discussion. Slowing down the slide. Brownell and Midway will have a run in the morning.

Sometimes when I bring this up when discussing the 1911, I see a picture of Tuner in the kitchen with his four legged buddies laughing his butt off. "They actually believe.............:evil:

I am a believer. My Commander and the National Match have EGW firing pin safety stop plates.
 
I understand that it's an incidental part of it's function, but it's also the answer to all of the people asking why a lighter spring will allow the brass to eject so much further. There seemed to be some confusion between velocity and acceleration about your statement of the spring not affecting acceleration.

It will also affect felt recoil, but that's another issue all together.
 
Quote:

>Then why would a heavier spring cause shorter ejection of the empty casing?<

Because it decelerates the slide faster, and reduces velocity and momentum. Nobody's arguing that it doesn't happen. Only that decelerating the slide isn't the spring's function and that...because springs work in both directions...a heavier spring reduces the speed and momentum in one direction, it increases it in the other. No such thing as a free lunch.
 
RC...I got enough trouble here without goin' into that firing pin stop. *grin*

For the record...I've never represented that as a recoil reduction device, and I've never used it for that. I use it as a reliability enhancement. That it does alter the recoil dynamics of the gun is interesting and certainly a bonus...it's incidental and essentially irrelevant.
 
Reason I ask is because while my Colt Combat Elite is a very smooth shooter with your typical 230gr FMJ non +P rounds if you feed some hot .45ACP rounds threw it it starts to kick really hard to the point of being pretty uncomfortable to shoot.
Click to expand...
Why shoot such overpowered ammunition in it at all? I doubt if a couple of extra pounds of recoil spring compression is going to help this issue.
 
While all this is being considered, let's look at felt recoil, and how the spring influences that.

The majority of what we know as recoil in an autopistol comes from the slide impacting the frame. While a stiffer action spring will buffer that some, it doesn't stop it, and the stiffer spring actually makes the recoil impetus sharper...faster.

Why?

Because the recoil system is a closed system, separate from the gun...which is made up of the slide and barrel. The frame is essentially a gun mount...and the only connection between the gun and the mount is through the springs.

Because the rapidly compressing spring sets up an action/reaction event of its own between the slide and frame after the main event is over...pushing forward on the rearward moving slide...and in the opposite direction on the frame...the more force the spring exerts against the slide, the more it exerts against the frame. Thus, at full travel, just before impact...a 16-pound spring is pushing with 16 pounds of force...and the 18 pound spring is pushing with 18 pounds. Do the math.
 
Let me drop in a non-technological metallurgical observation. About 15 years ago I took my stock Colt Combat Commander to Alex Hamilton at Ten-Ring Precision in San Antonio for an action, trigger and supercalifragilistic work-over. One of the first things out of his mouth was "Your recoil spring is too weak for your loads," pointing to the peening of the walls of the disconnector cut in the slide. It was rock-stock, and I did shoot heavy loads (230s prob +P), so I was kind of sheepish. He told me most of the stuff in these posts, and showed me that the recoil spring was about 1 coil short (still within specs) for heavy loads. He replaced it with a 20 lb-er & heavier firing pin spring, and that was the end of the problems. He also mentioned that things were a little different for the Govt Models, but I didn't pay close attention to that since I had sold my 5" and decided to trick out my "Corvette." I can tell you that racking that slide with a 20 lb spring is not a simple zip-zap, but it shoots great with the only problems an occasional FTF a lead 230 that I don't run through the taper crimp quite enough... cool:
 
Alex changed the wrong spring. Weak mainspring was the culprit. He masked it with the recoil spring, but didn't address the real issue.

I had that happen once with a new Colt Series 80 LW Commander. The damage is caused by the hammer rebounding back to the slide and hitting it too far forward..or rather when the slide is further rearward. It doesn't take much. It's supposed to hit roughly at the junction of slide and firing pin stop...not at the disconnector slot.

My practice for Commanders with standard recoil systems has long been to cut a 16-pound Gov't Model spring down to 24 turns. Never had a problem.
 
Any increase in velocity means there was an increase in force applied. The more force you hit the slide with, the faster it accelerates. The faster it's going when the bullet exits, the more momentum it will have.
Click to expand...

Right. So the spring rate does affect the battering of the frame by the slide. While you can fire a 1911 without a recoil spring installed without damage to the frame, ober time this will cause significant damage. Similarly, running +P loads with a 13lb spring will crack the frame after a few hundred rounds.
 
How is my thinking flawed? I said nothing about the momentum of the slide with a standard spring. I simply pointed out that the forward momentum of the slide is reduced due to stripping a round from the magazine.

The forward momentum of the slide using a std spring is reduced a similar amount so your slide with the extra power spring still slams forward harder. 1911Tuner is describing my point better than I am. My explanation is very simplistic.
 
quote:

Right. So the spring rate does affect the battering of the frame by the slide.
**************

While you can fire a 1911 without a recoil spring installed without damage to the frame, over time this will cause significant damage.
**********************

Similarly, running +P loads with a 13lb spring will crack the frame after a few hundred rounds.
*******************************

Of course the spring rate has an effect. Nobody said that it didn't.

Firing without a recoil spring was done to demonstrate that the basic firing function is unaffected by the spring and that the impact surfaces are tougher than you might think.

If +P cracks a frame after a few hundred rounds, the frame would have cracked prematurely anyway. The crack in the dust cover at the ends of the rails is caused by the top of the dust cover having insufficient clearance with the slide. When the impact comes, the cover flexes and the front bounces off the slide. The sharply machined corners are filled with stress risers...and cracks form there. The answer is to make sure there's enough clearance. I usually file the dust cover on a forward rake...angled...so there's a little more "bounce" room at the front. Doesn't take much. Ted Yost turned me on to that little angle trick years ago, when he was at Gunsite.

Again...The original design didn't specify a 16 pound spring. It didn't specify "pounds" at all. It called for "Music wire .042 diameter with 32.75 coils." If we compare that with a present-day Wolff 14 pound spring...32 coils of about the same diameter...that comes to about 14.5 pounds compressed to the point of the coils touching...and 13.75 pounds at full compression when installed in the gun. Of course, the firing pin stop in the original guns had a smaller 5/64ths radius on the bottom corner, but that's meat for another discussion.

For the record...I've never seen a new Colt Commander spring test at 18 pounds. Most come in at about 16-16.5 and most new Government Model springs don't run much over 14.5 pounds.

Also...There's far too much concern over the frame. Even if it cracks in the aforementioned places...the cracks are self-limiting and will stop when the stress risers are relieved. The slide is the part that takes the real punishment...and the spring can't do a think to alleviate that.

I knew a guy who insisted on running a 20 pound spring in his Colt LW Commander...to "Save the frame" despite my warning. Within 3,000 rounds, a vertical crack started to form on the left side that ran from the bottom of the slidestop pin hole downward, and the hole itself was egg-shaped horizontally. He also experienced occasional Bolt-Over Base misfeeds on the last round from the slide outrunning the magazine.

A little-known and widely misunderstood effect of overspringing is the extractor. I touched on the impact-induced loss of control of the round...usually on the last one...and the resultant push-feed and forcing the extractor claw to snap over the rim.

Ever heard anyone state that their extractor requires retensioning every couple thousand rounds? This is why. I had a friend who kept breaking and replacing extractors. He finally gave me a call to see if I could find a reason it kept happening.
When he brought the gun...a Colt LW Commander...I could barely rack the slide to clear it. One of the first things he'd done was to install a 22-pound spring. I fitted a new extractor to the gun and fixed him up with a recoil spring...and his extractor problems vanished. While I had the gun, I also installed a firing pin stop with a 1/16th radius at the bottom.

There are really no good reasons for overspringing the gun, but I can think of several reasons for not doing it.
 
I'll use this lull in the action to make the main point.

All guns will break if they're used enough. No getting around that. It's a machine. Overspringing in the attempt to stop or delay that is counterproductive because you're not preventing breakage or wear. All you're doing is changing what breaks. What you gain on one end, you lose on the other.

I have a pair of beaters...Colts...with frames that cracked many years and many tens of thousands of rounds ago. The cracks reached a point and stopped. Function has been unaffected, and unless you look closely at the guns, you'll never notice the cracks.

The practice of using heavy springs in order to "Save the Frame" is swallowing a grapefruit and gagging on a grape.
 
Ken, the first time I remember seeing the advice to use the heaviest spring that would allow the slide to lock reliably came from Bill Wilson...probably 20 years ago or more.
Two reasons were cited. Frame-saving, and ejection distance.

I was curious about it, and tried to wrap my head around it...and then I discovered that the old watchmaker was also peddling springs and shock buffs. Hmmm

One of the oldest strategies in the book is to first convince your customer that he "needs" what you have...and then sell it to him.

I wonder how we ever managed to get by before we had shock buffs and extra-power springs and full-length guide rods and 8-round magazines and power extractors and such...
 
Tuner... you are an asset to this community.

Thank you for taking the time to educate us.

It is appreciated.
 
Ok so we have a spring material specification, OD-or-ID specified, number of active coils, rate of deflection, free-length, installed-length, and compressed/solid length. When we talk 16-lbs in regards to the recoil spring are we talking rate of deflection per inch or pounds force at installed length?
 
Hangingrock said:
When we talk 16-lbs in regards to the recoil spring are we talking rate of deflection per inch or pounds force at installed length?
Click to expand...

Gunsprings are really strange. They're rated for pounds of force at the maximum compression they will encounter in the firearm.
 
I have been watching this thread and learning. I probably don't have much of any value to add other than I am a high round count competition shooter and I have put well over a quarter of a million rounds of 170 pf loads through some pretty high dollar 1911's and many, many thousands of rounds of 175 pf ammo through some gawd awful expensive 2011 open guns. I use 14 lb. springs in my .45 Auto 1911s and 9 lb. springs in my .38 Supers. FWIW, every custom gunsmith I have visited with about recoil springs has told me they see far more ill effects and damage from too heavy a spring.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
  • Locked
10mm 1911 Recoil Springs
Replies
4
Views
3K
ugaarguy
ugaarguy
B
  • Locked
1911 recoil spring question
Replies
3
Views
416
Black Majik
B
P
  • Locked
1911 recoil spring question.....
Replies
20
Views
4K
gregshake2
G
T
  • Locked
Kimber 1911 confusion re: recoil spring
Replies
5
Views
443
Don Carter
D
oldbenn
  • Locked
Can we talk about 1911 recoil springs ?
Replies
19
Views
3K
oldbenn
oldbenn
Back
Top