Anyone run stiffer recoil springs in there Government sized 1911's
- Thread starter JROC
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Magnumite
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Comment was made a tightly fitted 1911 required a greater force recoil spring. The opposite is true. The closer fitting of parts helps slow the slide's velocity during recoil. And I have the pistol to prove it...LOL.
My experiences parallel what Tuner is saying. I don't have the experience in professional repair he does, but on the tuning end I have some, though not to his level. I typically see most people over springing the guns as he pointed out. If you tune for greatest force recoil spring when it is hot out, during cold weather you will have issues.
I tune my 1911's from the back in a manner of speaking. While there are limits I maintain in the spring rates, I typically tune firing pin stop, mainspring, then recoil spring. I have fallen victim to the 1911 siren's song and have actually assembled a collection of 1911's with different missions.
For a steel gun with a low power floor the loads are soft shooting and in 45 ACP more of a push in recoil. The firing pin stop has a large radius with the arc starting higher on the stop and I use around a standard force mainspring to begin. My objective with this gun is to smooth out cycling a much as possible, not so much trying to eliminate recoil (which you can't do). My approach is three fold - smooth out the recoil character; reduce perceived recoil by letting the mainspring absorb more of the recoil force; and keep the slide velocity closer to stock (for feeding reliability, running the gun a little faster and consistency in chambering which assures accuracy built into the pistol is realized).
For a pin or USPSA type gun the same approach but with a very small radius firing pin stop, lower than stock mainspring and recoil spring. This works to lower percieved recoil, keeps the slide from slapping too hard to the rear and keeps the front sight from dipping going back into battery. There is no frame battering and the slide stop pin holes are in good shape. Typically, my recoil spring is around 12 - 14 pounds on these guns, dependent on gun and load. If the gun is ejecting the brass far and away or there is hard rear slide impact felt, I start at the rear of the gun with stronger mainspring.
For a "serious" gun, no gaming, I stay close to standard GI configuration and use the 16 pound recoil spring. This gun really must function and go bang above all other functions. I will use the square firing pin stop with closer to the original 1911 radius because that helps with follow up shot speed from reduced muzzle flip.
My experiences parallel what Tuner is saying. I don't have the experience in professional repair he does, but on the tuning end I have some, though not to his level. I typically see most people over springing the guns as he pointed out. If you tune for greatest force recoil spring when it is hot out, during cold weather you will have issues.
I tune my 1911's from the back in a manner of speaking. While there are limits I maintain in the spring rates, I typically tune firing pin stop, mainspring, then recoil spring. I have fallen victim to the 1911 siren's song and have actually assembled a collection of 1911's with different missions.
For a steel gun with a low power floor the loads are soft shooting and in 45 ACP more of a push in recoil. The firing pin stop has a large radius with the arc starting higher on the stop and I use around a standard force mainspring to begin. My objective with this gun is to smooth out cycling a much as possible, not so much trying to eliminate recoil (which you can't do). My approach is three fold - smooth out the recoil character; reduce perceived recoil by letting the mainspring absorb more of the recoil force; and keep the slide velocity closer to stock (for feeding reliability, running the gun a little faster and consistency in chambering which assures accuracy built into the pistol is realized).
For a pin or USPSA type gun the same approach but with a very small radius firing pin stop, lower than stock mainspring and recoil spring. This works to lower percieved recoil, keeps the slide from slapping too hard to the rear and keeps the front sight from dipping going back into battery. There is no frame battering and the slide stop pin holes are in good shape. Typically, my recoil spring is around 12 - 14 pounds on these guns, dependent on gun and load. If the gun is ejecting the brass far and away or there is hard rear slide impact felt, I start at the rear of the gun with stronger mainspring.
For a "serious" gun, no gaming, I stay close to standard GI configuration and use the 16 pound recoil spring. This gun really must function and go bang above all other functions. I will use the square firing pin stop with closer to the original 1911 radius because that helps with follow up shot speed from reduced muzzle flip.
Rail Driver
Member
I've understood much of what's gone on in the thread so far, but what's got me confused is the firing pin stop... what on earth has that got to do with the slide's cycle speed?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Rail...It's a simple matter of leverage.
The slide is what cocks the hammer, and the firing pin stop is the piece that bears on the slide to accomplish that. The smaller the radius on the bottom, the lower the contact point...which reduces the mechanical advantage...which robs the slide of speed and momentum. Once momentum is lost, it can't be regained, and the slide is moving slower after the hammer is cocked.
Another aspect that even many who understand it don't think about is that by delaying the slide, the bullet exits earlier relative to the slide's position, which removes the accelerating force from the slide earlier, further reducing its speed and momentum.
Browning's original stop called for a .78 radius, which works out to 5/64ths inch. The radius was changed in January 1918 after complaints from the troops over the pistol's slide being difficult to manually operate when the hammer was down. The new radius solved that problem, but as with anything else...whenever something is gained on one end, something is lost on the other.
In the early days, I searched the parts bins at gun shows for the old stops, and when they dried up...I started making them. Happy was I when I saw that EGW was producing oversized stops with square bottoms that not only allowed me to closely fit for extractor stability...but I could also choose the radius that I wanted to use. I took Browning's idea a step further, and use a radius of about 1/16th inch. I also stick with the full-power mainspring, which is standardized at 23 pounds.
About 10 years ago, Ned Christiansen...known for his affinity for the 10mm versions of the 1911...began experimenting with the stop radius. By using a 25-pound mainspring and a very small radius...I believe it was .050 inch...he was able to drop the recoil spring from 22 pounds to 18 with no change in slide to frame impact as observed by watching damage and deformation on neoprene shock buffs. He also noticed that the recoil dynamics of the pistol were altered.
My use of the small radius on the stop was never for the effects it had on recoil, and I've never represented it as such, though I have made mention of it. My reasons for using it were for reliability enhancement. Many Bullseye smiths use it for accuracy enhancement. Jerry Keefer, who eats, sleeps, and breathes accuracy maximizes its effects by grinding the face of the stop on a slight angle so that the hammer will roll forward a few thousandths in order to induce a tiny bit more delay on the slide. He wouldn't waste his time doing that if there was no benefit to it.
Although it does change the recoil is interesting, and a bonus...it's essentially irrelevant...at least to me. Of course, I'm not chasing .1 splits in IDPA/USPSA...so its advantage is different for different people. Even the ones who swear that they can't detect a difference often grudgingly admit that the muzzle doesn't rise as high, and that they're able to get the sights back on target faster.
The slide is what cocks the hammer, and the firing pin stop is the piece that bears on the slide to accomplish that. The smaller the radius on the bottom, the lower the contact point...which reduces the mechanical advantage...which robs the slide of speed and momentum. Once momentum is lost, it can't be regained, and the slide is moving slower after the hammer is cocked.
Another aspect that even many who understand it don't think about is that by delaying the slide, the bullet exits earlier relative to the slide's position, which removes the accelerating force from the slide earlier, further reducing its speed and momentum.
Browning's original stop called for a .78 radius, which works out to 5/64ths inch. The radius was changed in January 1918 after complaints from the troops over the pistol's slide being difficult to manually operate when the hammer was down. The new radius solved that problem, but as with anything else...whenever something is gained on one end, something is lost on the other.
In the early days, I searched the parts bins at gun shows for the old stops, and when they dried up...I started making them. Happy was I when I saw that EGW was producing oversized stops with square bottoms that not only allowed me to closely fit for extractor stability...but I could also choose the radius that I wanted to use. I took Browning's idea a step further, and use a radius of about 1/16th inch. I also stick with the full-power mainspring, which is standardized at 23 pounds.
About 10 years ago, Ned Christiansen...known for his affinity for the 10mm versions of the 1911...began experimenting with the stop radius. By using a 25-pound mainspring and a very small radius...I believe it was .050 inch...he was able to drop the recoil spring from 22 pounds to 18 with no change in slide to frame impact as observed by watching damage and deformation on neoprene shock buffs. He also noticed that the recoil dynamics of the pistol were altered.
My use of the small radius on the stop was never for the effects it had on recoil, and I've never represented it as such, though I have made mention of it. My reasons for using it were for reliability enhancement. Many Bullseye smiths use it for accuracy enhancement. Jerry Keefer, who eats, sleeps, and breathes accuracy maximizes its effects by grinding the face of the stop on a slight angle so that the hammer will roll forward a few thousandths in order to induce a tiny bit more delay on the slide. He wouldn't waste his time doing that if there was no benefit to it.
Although it does change the recoil is interesting, and a bonus...it's essentially irrelevant...at least to me. Of course, I'm not chasing .1 splits in IDPA/USPSA...so its advantage is different for different people. Even the ones who swear that they can't detect a difference often grudgingly admit that the muzzle doesn't rise as high, and that they're able to get the sights back on target faster.
Stringfellow
Member
I have nothing meaningful to add here, other than that is one sweet 1911!!!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
918v...or course it does. Nobody has argued that it doesn't. The spring decelerates the slide before it hits the impact abutment.
As far as the peened rails and dust covers issue...I haven't seen that unless something was wrong with the frame...even LW Commanders and the old, soft guns built before 1946 took many thousands of rounds to show any deformation there.
I have a pair of early Colt 1991A1 pistols that have lived as beaters from day one. They've been through one rebuild and slide to frame refitting...and are on their third barrels. They're approaching
400,000 rounds collectively. There's never been a spring rate higher than 16 pounds in either of them, and most of their lives have been spent with 14-pound springs...depending on which is available at the lowest cost. I used the first shock buffs that had ever been in the guns last year, and once they wore out, I never replaced them
There is no peening of the rails or dust covers in either gun. Both of them did crack at the usual places...about 10 years ago.
As far as the peened rails and dust covers issue...I haven't seen that unless something was wrong with the frame...even LW Commanders and the old, soft guns built before 1946 took many thousands of rounds to show any deformation there.
I have a pair of early Colt 1991A1 pistols that have lived as beaters from day one. They've been through one rebuild and slide to frame refitting...and are on their third barrels. They're approaching
400,000 rounds collectively. There's never been a spring rate higher than 16 pounds in either of them, and most of their lives have been spent with 14-pound springs...depending on which is available at the lowest cost. I used the first shock buffs that had ever been in the guns last year, and once they wore out, I never replaced them
There is no peening of the rails or dust covers in either gun. Both of them did crack at the usual places...about 10 years ago.
The main reason why I swapped the factory 16lb spring for a WC 18lb spring in my Kimber that I use for USPSA is that once I removed the FPS, spent cases using my "major" reloads were being thrown into the next zip code. I had read Ed Brown's comment that cases should land 8 to 12 feet away so I bought 18lb, 22lb and 24lb springs from Wilson Combat. The 22lb and 24lb didn't work well at all and resulted in unreliable feeding from WC magazines. The 18lb spring worked very well with cases falling 10 to 12 feet away with excellent reliability so that's what I've used for the past 2,000+ rounds. I have a match this weekend and there's no way I'm going to put the 16lb spring back in before that. I'll try it after the match though to see if recoil and/or case ejection is markedly different.
From Ed Brown's FAQ:
Make sure your recoil spring is correctly matched to the ammunition you are shooting. When you have the proper weight recoil spring for a particular load, ejected brass should land 8-12 feet away. If brass is falling within a few feet of you, your spring is too heavy for that load. If brass lands more than about 12 feet away, your spring is too light for that load. Either case leads to reduced reliability.
How important is it that cases fall within a certain distance, in terms of reliability that is? If it is important, should one tune the ejector and extractor to achieve this rather than increase the weight rating of the spring? How does all of this relate the the "standard" spring weight for commander sized 1911s?
From Ed Brown's FAQ:
Make sure your recoil spring is correctly matched to the ammunition you are shooting. When you have the proper weight recoil spring for a particular load, ejected brass should land 8-12 feet away. If brass is falling within a few feet of you, your spring is too heavy for that load. If brass lands more than about 12 feet away, your spring is too light for that load. Either case leads to reduced reliability.
How important is it that cases fall within a certain distance, in terms of reliability that is? If it is important, should one tune the ejector and extractor to achieve this rather than increase the weight rating of the spring? How does all of this relate the the "standard" spring weight for commander sized 1911s?
Stringfellow thanks for the complement!
Tuner this is excellent info, and put into words very well. It's much more speaking my language so to speak as while I'm no Gunsmith I am a Tool and Die Maker, and I understand measurements in decimals, fractions, and radius's, and how a radius works as a lead.
What's the radius they ended up adopting for the on the bottom of the firing pin stop in 1918?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
JROC...The same as it is today. 7/32nds
Maj Dad
Member
John,
Based on your input I am replacing the mainspring - I presume stock is the preferred weight (at the risk of fanning more flames!). What weight/niumber or coils (Alex also told me 23-24 was his recommendation) recoil spring would you recommend using a full-length guide rod (post-Alex) and stiff but not unreasonable loads (and not always)? I have read all these posts and believe me, my brain is boggged down (just got out of three hospital admissions with some issues that are funny now but not so much then).
Thanks,
George
Based on your input I am replacing the mainspring - I presume stock is the preferred weight (at the risk of fanning more flames!). What weight/niumber or coils (Alex also told me 23-24 was his recommendation) recoil spring would you recommend using a full-length guide rod (post-Alex) and stiff but not unreasonable loads (and not always)? I have read all these posts and believe me, my brain is boggged down (just got out of three hospital admissions with some issues that are funny now but not so much then).
Thanks,
George
Vern Humphrey
Member
What you want is the recoil spring, which is located under the barrel -- the main spring is located in the main spring housing, which is on the lower rear of the butt.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Maj Dad...Without more information, I can't make a recommendation. Is it a 5-inch/GM sized pistol...or a Commander? Or...is it a true Commander clone with a 4.25-inch barrel...or 4 inches? Does it have a standard guide rod/spring plug system...or a bushingless/reverse plug design? It makes a difference.
armsmaster270
Member
I run straight new G.I springs in mine
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Nakanokalronin
Member
- Joined
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I put 18 - 18 1/2lb recoil springs in all of my 5" Government 45acp 1911s and I experience no jams with any 230gr. ball or HP rounds, standrad or +P pressure. Go figure.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Quote:
>I put 18 - 18 1/2lb recoil springs in all of my 5" Government 45acp 1911s and I experience no jams with any 230gr. ball or HP rounds, standrad or +P pressure.<
I don't think anyone suggested that heavier springs would cause jams.
>I put 18 - 18 1/2lb recoil springs in all of my 5" Government 45acp 1911s and I experience no jams with any 230gr. ball or HP rounds, standrad or +P pressure.<
I don't think anyone suggested that heavier springs would cause jams.
Nakanokalronin
Member
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OP asked about heavier recoil spring in his 1911 and people are saying to make sure when springs are changed to a different weight to run through the ammo again to make sure its reliable.This is a good idea which is why I stated my experience with heavier recoil springs. I stated I change my spring to 18 - 18lbs and have not experienced a single jam with ANY ammo and I'll add that this is in 11 1911s from different manufactures. When you change parts or springs in any pistol from what is already on it, reliability is always a question that many like to be answered.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Well...Depending on the shooter and often the gun itself...changing to a heavier spring can induce ejection and even feeding stoppages...but it's not to be expected any more than going to a lighter spring.
The main points contained here have essentially been that there's really no good reason to go to heavier springs...and several reasons not to.
I suppose that one could reasonably argue that it would be a good idea when shifting to ammunition conversions like the .45 Super or the .460 Rowland...but those are off the scale, and probably not a good idea to use in a 1911 anyway...even with a well-fitted barrel.
The main points contained here have essentially been that there's really no good reason to go to heavier springs...and several reasons not to.
I suppose that one could reasonably argue that it would be a good idea when shifting to ammunition conversions like the .45 Super or the .460 Rowland...but those are off the scale, and probably not a good idea to use in a 1911 anyway...even with a well-fitted barrel.
Maj Dad
Member
Tuner,
Pistol is a Colt Series 80 Combat Commander (mfg 1985), stock 4.25" bbl & bushing, and action & trigger jobs and full-length Wilson (I think) guide rod with "hollow" plug installed by Alex Hamilton. Recoil spring is 20 lb Wolff with ext. power FP spring (also Alex-installed), and mainspring is stock (I'm paranoid about reducing power on them). I'm really not unhappy with it, but if you think replacing the mainspring is a good idea, it's cheap & easy and I'm all about that ;-) I also spent enough time in the military to be a true believer in "If it ain't broke...' etc etc.
Drive on!
George
"Maj Dad"
Pistol is a Colt Series 80 Combat Commander (mfg 1985), stock 4.25" bbl & bushing, and action & trigger jobs and full-length Wilson (I think) guide rod with "hollow" plug installed by Alex Hamilton. Recoil spring is 20 lb Wolff with ext. power FP spring (also Alex-installed), and mainspring is stock (I'm paranoid about reducing power on them). I'm really not unhappy with it, but if you think replacing the mainspring is a good idea, it's cheap & easy and I'm all about that ;-) I also spent enough time in the military to be a true believer in "If it ain't broke...' etc etc.
Drive on!
George
"Maj Dad"
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Wolff 23 pound mainspring. Order a Wolff 16-pound spring for the 5-inch gun and trim it to 24 coils. There shouldn't be a problem, but check if for coil bind...stacking solid...just to be safe. If you don't know how, sing out.
EGW's square bottomed firing pin stop with a very light 45 degree bevel on the corner is is optional, but worthwhile. Oversized and will require fitting first to the bare slide, and then with the extractor installed. Keep check to make sure the firing pin will reset easily so you won't get it off-center, and be careful to make the bevel straight. If you can file to a radius, do that. About 1/16h is good. If you can't...the bevel will do, but keep it small.
Helpful hint:
When fitting the sides, lay a smooth mill file on a solid surface and draw the part on the file. It only cuts in one direction...so be sure to do it correctly. Check to see that the right edge will fit into the extractor slot. Adjust as needed from the back side. Break the corners on that edge. You may need to file a little clearance for the Commander ejector's offset.
It keeps the extractor square and stable, which makes ejection more consistent, and provides added delay and robs the slide of a little of its momentum...which means that it not only compresses the recoil spring slower...it also doesn't hit the impact abutment as hard.
Be sure to order one cut for a Series 80. There is a difference. Most people who try it say it's the best 15 bucks they ever spent on a 1911 pistol.
EGW's square bottomed firing pin stop with a very light 45 degree bevel on the corner is is optional, but worthwhile. Oversized and will require fitting first to the bare slide, and then with the extractor installed. Keep check to make sure the firing pin will reset easily so you won't get it off-center, and be careful to make the bevel straight. If you can file to a radius, do that. About 1/16h is good. If you can't...the bevel will do, but keep it small.
Helpful hint:
When fitting the sides, lay a smooth mill file on a solid surface and draw the part on the file. It only cuts in one direction...so be sure to do it correctly. Check to see that the right edge will fit into the extractor slot. Adjust as needed from the back side. Break the corners on that edge. You may need to file a little clearance for the Commander ejector's offset.
It keeps the extractor square and stable, which makes ejection more consistent, and provides added delay and robs the slide of a little of its momentum...which means that it not only compresses the recoil spring slower...it also doesn't hit the impact abutment as hard.
Be sure to order one cut for a Series 80. There is a difference. Most people who try it say it's the best 15 bucks they ever spent on a 1911 pistol.
Apocalypse-Now
Member
the frame takes more of a spanking though.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
In case anyone missed it...
The original spring spec wasn't designated in pounds. It called for 32.75 coils of music wire of .042 diameter.
Comparing those numbers to Wolff's 14 pound spring...32 coils music wire of .0425 diameter...it's very close. I believe that Jerry Kuhnhausen tested the original at 13.8 pounds at full compression as installed in the gun...and those specs were worked out for early guns with unhardened frames and slides.
Of course, the originals used a full power mainspring and a firing pin stop with a 5/64ths radius...so that did tend to change things a little.
The original spring spec wasn't designated in pounds. It called for 32.75 coils of music wire of .042 diameter.
Comparing those numbers to Wolff's 14 pound spring...32 coils music wire of .0425 diameter...it's very close. I believe that Jerry Kuhnhausen tested the original at 13.8 pounds at full compression as installed in the gun...and those specs were worked out for early guns with unhardened frames and slides.
Of course, the originals used a full power mainspring and a firing pin stop with a 5/64ths radius...so that did tend to change things a little.
Skylerbone
Member
Wilson also makes a flat bottom oversized FPS in addition to the drop in style. Larry Potterfield is gonna wonder what's up this weekend;-)
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