Anyone Tried Loading Hornady's 250gr. XTPs In .45ACP Cases?

[Saw-Bones]

I noticed that the Hornady 250gr. XTP bullet is recommended for the .45Colt and not for the .45ACP and I also could not find any load data for this bullet in the .45ACP.

I was wondering if one of you adventurous souls ever tried it. I would have tried it myself, but I couldn't find any specs on the bullet's overall length so I could determine if the it would stabilize in a standard twist .45ACP barrel.

Your thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks..... Doc

 

[Hondo 60]

I've found that there's a reason when you can't find data.
The bullet makers just don't think it's a good idea.

Have fun & plz stay safe.

 

[murf]

both are one in sixteen twist. i have an older reloading manual listing a 260 gn hollow point bullet. what powder(s) are you going to use?

murf

 

[Saw-Bones]

@ Murf - I’ve been reloading since 1974 and I reload .25ACP to the .458 Win. Mag. so I have many kinds of powder on hand. Depending on the application, I have my favorites for the .45ACP, so if it’s not too much trouble and doesn’t require too much effort please let me know what powders your manual has data for. Thank you for your input….. Doc

@ Hondo 60 - I usually try to stay safe when engaged with anything that can cause great bodily harm or death, but then again I often wonder why I served in the Marine Corps in Cambodia and Laos or as police officer in one of the highest crime and murder capitals of the U.S.!

Murf’s signature line, “festina lente - make haste, slowly” is my guideline when it comes to reloading. As to fun, what can be more fun than being retired and playing with big-boy toys?!? Thanks for your response as well….. Doc

 

[RecoilRob]

According to this chart....the 250 XTP minimum recommended velocity is 800 fps...which will be difficult to achieve in the ACP and normal barrel lengths. Perhaps that's why it's difficult to find data?

 

[LoonWulf]

I used them in some heavy .45 SUPER loadings, but not standard .45s. They are blunter than bullets actually ment for the .45 acp, so youll need to watch your coal.

 

[Walkalong]

I have shot lead and plated 250s in .45 ACP many years ago. I used W-231. I did not have a chrono so I have no idea what the velocity was. If you are looking for it to expand, I don't think you will get there safetly.

 

[Saw-Bones]

@ RecoilRob - I appreciate you taking the time to show that chart; it was very informative. Is the chart part of a compilation of all/many bullet makers or is it proprietary? I would be grateful if you would share the source/link for the chart(s).

@ Loonwulf - I have some new Starline .45Super cases on hand and if Murf’s data can put me into range I can experiment with I might use these cases if the pressure signs indicate that the pressures are getting “edgy”.

@ Walkalong - These loadings will be for defense, so if they don’t expand or don’t give me greater bullet momentum than I can get out of a 230 grain bullet then they are of no use to me.

 

[Walkalong]

I have some new Starline .45Super cases on hand and if Murf’s data can put me into range I can experiment with I might use these cases if the pressure signs indicate that the pressures are getting “edgy”.

By the time you see pressure signs in .45 ACP, you are way over pressure.

@ Walkalong - These loadings will be for defense, so if they don’t expand or don’t give me greater bullet momentum than I can get out of a 230 grain bullet then they are of no use to me.

Good luck, and be careful.

 

[Walkalong]

These may help. Their Load Maps had some pretty sporty data. Be careful.

 

[LoonWulf]

@ Loonwulf - I have some new Starline .45Super cases on hand and if Murf’s data can put me into range I can experiment with I might use these cases if the pressure signs indicate that the pressures are getting “edgy”.

What gun/guns are you considering shooting these from? Also on the coal note, if your going to use them in multiple firearms youll probably want to run short and a little light, or carefully tailor them to each gun. Again this is mosly due to differnce in chambers, and the fact that the shape of these bullets is intended for revolvers.

If you do decide to play with heavy bullet loads keep an eye on function. As long as you have a properly supported chamber, youll most likely run into the mechanical limitations of the pistol before a case rupture is likely. So watch for unusually energetic ejection, or weird ejection patterns, and for signs of early opening on the brass/primers.

As Walkalong said, I wouldn't expect them to expand well. Even driven hard from my modified xd they didnt expand much so i decided to use hardcast 250s.
The powders i used were mostly longshot, and when going for top end 800x. These slow and probably not the best for standard pressure loadings, but your also not likely to blow yourself up with them. As always be very careful using any none standard loading, especially in a delayed opening action as timing can go from fine to critical pretty quickly.

 

[RecoilRob]

@ RecoilRob - I appreciate you taking the time to show that chart; it was very informative. Is the chart part of a compilation of all/many bullet makers or is it proprietary? I would be grateful if you would share the source/link for the chart(s).
.

I found the chart mentioned in a post on another forum linking to an article written by another person. My 'Google-Foo' was strong then...and now I can't find it right at the moment, but that's a Hornady published chart so the info is good. I did find an older chart from Hornady showing the same numbers but with 800 fps as the lowest velocity that was in one of their loading manuals.

The XTP's are fine bullets, but IMHO the 250's are a wee bit too heavy to work as intended in the ACP unless you're expecting VERY deep penetration with minimal expansion. A lighter version driven a good bit faster would probably work better for a defensive type application where you're comfortably over the expansion threshold without requiring over +P pressures. If very deep penetration is your goal...at normal ACP pressures, a cast TC might be about the same effectiveness and no worries about expansion or not. As mentioned the OAL might be a little tricky to get to feed, and there's a LOT of bullet stuck down into the case which might also give problems depending on the wall taper. Also they're .452" and while not a lot over the normal .451"...when you're pushing things to the edge small changes can have big effects.

 

[Saw-Bones]

Whoa! Apologies For My “Senior Moment”!!!


After seeing Walkalong’s MidwayUSA “LoadMAP” attachment for the .45ACP I remembered that I bought the .45ACP manual 20 years ago, but I can’t remember the last time I saw it on my gun bookshelf. I figured that a shooting buddy borrowed it and forgot to return it. This reloading data book in the shape of a 5.5”x8.5” spiral bound chart and it was small enough that it fell behind the other books on the shelf, but some digging got it back in business.

The “LoadMAP” has the data for the 250gr. Hornady XTP bullet and it shows a max velocity of 930 fps at the max pressure for a .45ACP case at 21,000 psi using Blue Dot powder. BINGO!

It was my understanding that the LoadMAP manuals were discontinued because of concerns that the loading info was being disseminated without benefit of the inclusion of the specifications, procedures and precise combinations thus presenting possible unsafe conditions and a possible liability for Midway.

FYI: The manual states: “WARNING: The data in this manual was created under strictly controlled conditions….. Exactly follow the specifications and procedures…… Exactly follow the precise combinations listed…..” This information is extensive and you really need the book to stay safe. (Emboldening of the words are by me.)

I apologize for my “senior moment” causing you kind folks to unnecessarily jump through some hoops for me.

@ Walkalong - Thanks for taking the time and effort to drag out your LoadMAP, photo it and post the attachment. The resulting memory jog got the manual properly back on the shelf again. It is greatly appreciated.

@ LoonWulf - I cut my center fire handgun-teeth in the Marine Corps in 1969 with an issued 1911A-1 and that platform has been my favorite since then. My EDC is a Springfield Armory SS Compact .45 that has a 4” bbl and an Officer Model type frame. I have a couple of Government style models that I carry from time to time that I also want to use these bullets in.

The LoadMAP specification is adamant about the col being 1.275’’ when using the data to achieve the 930 fps mark, so I won’t go shorter than that. Currently none of my .45ACP loadings are that long and I’m hoping that they will perform reliably.

Do you think that 930 fps will cause these bullets to expand very well? Have you ever experimented with ballistic gelatin?

@ RecoilRob - Since the max Saami col for the 45ACP is 1.275” and that I’ve never loaded one that long, my first concern is about the col causing unreliable function… only one way to find out.

Since the LoadMAP specifically requires the Remington case I would believe they took the case taper, if any into consideration.

My other concern is expansion without very deep penetration. As long as the bullets can go through the sternum and stay in the mediastinum (chamber between the lungs for the heart and its vessels, etc) it would be the desired result.

Have you ever experimented with ballistic gelatin?

Again, thanks to all for your input..... Doc

 

[Varminterror]

Loadbooks USA still sells their little compilation books for specific cartridges. They haven’t gone anywhere. Readily available at Cabela’s and Midway, or manufacturer direct. They are nothing more than compilations, reprinted with permission, of multiple other manufacturers manual data.

The chart @Recoil Rob posted is from Hornady themselves. It’s been available on their site, in their manuals, and in XTP promotional data off and on for years. It’s a little ambitious, in my experience - meaning it shows expansion at lower velocities than the bullets will actually expand reliably, and at higher velocities than they will retain weight satisfactorily. But it gives you an idea of where you should be loading for a given bullet.

 

[RecoilRob]

Semper Fi Brother. I also have never loaded a 45 over 1.260 which is where all my ball functions the best. Guess you won't know if they'll even fit into the magazine considering the hollow point nose is going to put the edges WAY out there where ball doesn't go.
I've only used XTP's in 454 Casull and these are the Magnum versions with heavier jacket and have not done any gel testing with them or tried driving them through a large critter. But I think it is safe to say that if you contemplate a sternum shot on a human and wish the bullet to stay within his body that hitting him with the 250 XTP @ 900 probably isn't going to do the job. It very well might expand a bit, but I can't help but believe that no human is going to come anywhere close to stopping one so if you're concerned at all with over-penetration...something lighter and more fragile would be better IMHO.

Have you seen this: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP I know the clear ballistic gel isn't perfect, but it might give you some idea of how the different bullets can perform. Particularly interesting to me is the XTP 185 results where one bullet failed completely to expand and went close to 30"...and this was delivered almost 200 fps OVER the minimum recommended velocity from the Hornady chart. So if expansion is truly desired....or needed....methinks you might be going the wrong way with the 250's. Personally I'm not much bothered by 'over-penetration' being as the vast majority (80%) of shots fired by LE are clean misses.....so anything that actually hit the guy and made it through are the least of my worries. The XTP's at the lower end of recommended seem a bit sketchy with their expansion, and I'd feel better being up toward the other end if I really needed them to expand. On humans even if the jacket comes off you still get the core penetrating which very likely will perforate most people so higher would be the better choice. But by all means load up some of those 250's and see what you get...will be interesting reading. Good luck!


@ RecoilRob - Since the max Saami col for the 45ACP is 1.275” and that I’ve never loaded one that long, my first concern is about the col causing unreliable function… only one way to find out.

Since the LoadMAP specifically requires the Remington case I would believe they took the case taper, if any into consideration.

My other concern is expansion without very deep penetration. As long as the bullets can go through the sternum and stay in the mediastinum (chamber between the lungs for the heart and its vessels, etc) it would be the desired result.

Have you ever experimented with ballistic gelatin?

Again, thanks to all for your input..... Doc[/QUOTE]

 

[LoonWulf]

@ LoonWulf - I cut my center fire handgun-teeth in the Marine Corps in 1969 with an issued 1911A-1 and that platform has been my favorite since then. My EDC is a Springfield Armory SS Compact .45 that has a 4” bbl and an Officer Model type frame. I have a couple of Government style models that I carry from time to time that I also want to use these bullets in.

Looks like your off to a good start on data. I agree with testing your rounds. My XD touched at 1.26ish, and I loaded all my rounds at 1.25
I was scratching 1100 (5.75" barrel) with 800x and expansion wasn't horribly impressive thru wet news paper, and into a dirt mound.
Mine were the standard 250s.
I also shot some of the 240magnums and those pencil holed.
Honestly I went to cast 250s for penetrators, 200xtps for my regular hunting ammo. In that process I also went thru 230s and decided they werent what I was looking for. But again my loads we're well beyond standard .45 acp velocity.
Along that line of thought, from my experience 930fps (from a 5" barrel) would be a hot but not ridiculous load with 800x. I've never used bluedot so I can't do more than grab you some quickloads data.

Standard QL data warning......THIS IS ONLY A ESTIMATE AND SHOULD NOT BE USED WITHOUT PROPER TESTING
Heres bluedot with a 1.275 coal

Cartridge : .45 Auto (ACP) (SAAMI)
Bullet : .452, 250, Hornady HP/XTP LC 45200
Useable Case Capaci: 13.689 grain H2O = 0.889 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.275 inch = 32.39 mm
Barrel Length : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm
Powder : Alliant BLUE DOT

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 78 8.00 738 303 12499 2499 60.5 0.858
-18.0 80 8.20 756 318 13142 2602 61.7 0.838
-16.0 82 8.40 774 333 13817 2706 62.8 0.819
-14.0 84 8.60 793 349 14525 2812 63.9 0.800
-12.0 86 8.80 811 365 15267 2918 64.9 0.782
-10.0 88 9.00 829 381 16045 3025 66.0 0.764
-08.0 90 9.20 847 399 16860 3134 67.1 0.747
-06.0 91 9.40 866 416 17714 3243 68.1 0.731
-04.0 93 9.60 884 434 18608 3353 69.2 0.714 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 95 9.80 903 452 19545 3463 70.2 0.699 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 97 10.00 921 471 20526 3574 71.2 0.684 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 99 10.20 940 490 21554 3686 72.2 0.669 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 101 10.40 959 510 22630 3797 73.2 0.655 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 103 10.60 977 530 23757 3909 74.2 0.640 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 105 10.80 996 551 24937 4021 75.2 0.625 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 107 11.00 1015 572 26173 4133 76.2 0.611 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 97 10.00 986 540 24175 3935 79.5 0.635 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 97 10.00 849 401 17144 3149 62.0 0.742

 

[LoonWulf]

and 1.250 Coal
Cartridge : .45 Auto (ACP) (SAAMI)
Bullet : .452, 250, Hornady HP/XTP LC 45200
Useable Case Capaci: 12.672 grain H2O = 0.823 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.250 inch = 31.75 mm
Barrel Length : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm
Powder : Alliant BLUE DOT

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 80 7.61 721 289 12419 2305 59.3 0.868
-18.0 82 7.80 739 303 13060 2401 60.4 0.848
-16.0 84 7.99 757 318 13734 2498 61.5 0.828
-14.0 86 8.18 774 333 14442 2596 62.6 0.809
-12.0 88 8.37 792 348 15185 2695 63.7 0.791
-10.0 90 8.56 810 364 15966 2794 64.8 0.773
-08.0 92 8.75 828 381 16785 2895 65.8 0.755
-06.0 94 8.94 846 398 17644 2997 66.9 0.738
-04.0 96 9.13 864 415 18546 3099 67.9 0.722 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 98 9.32 883 432 19492 3201 69.0 0.706 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 100 9.51 901 451 20483 3305 70.0 0.691 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 102 9.70 919 469 21524 3408 71.0 0.675 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 104 9.89 938 488 22616 3512 72.0 0.661 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 106 10.08 956 508 23761 3617 73.0 0.646 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 108 10.27 975 527 24962 3721 74.0 0.631 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 110 10.46 993 548 26224 3826 75.0 0.617 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 100 9.51 965 517 24157 3647 78.3 0.641 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 100 9.51 830 382 17090 2904 60.8 0.750

 

[LoonWulf]

I would also be interested to see how QL data compares to your load map data, i havent seen any published stuff for the 250s.

Honestly for standard use i think the more normal acp bullets in the 200-230 range at around 1000-1100 fps are about perfect for what your looking for. At 1250 the 200s blow water jugs up in surprising fashion, 230s do about the same. That suggests to me(with no real emperical data, just ooooOOOObservation) that they expand at a similar rate when impact velocities are similar.
The one water jug i shot with a 250 ended up with a rip on the back side and about a .75" hole, and was significantly less impressive to watch.

I also wanted to echo Walkalongs warning about seeing pressure on the case (i missed it earlier). With the SUPER brass especially, NONE of my load showed any pressure signs on the cases.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just an idea Doc, since the XTP bullet has a reputation of being a tough hunting bullet that might not expand at modest velocities why not try a different bullet? Maybe something from Speer might be a better choice.
https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/handgun-bullets/deepcurl-handgun-hunting/452/452-250-gdhp-bullet

It's just a guess on my part though and might be totally off base. Good luck.

 

[Saw-Bones]

@ Varminterror - LoadMAPS are NOT Loadbooks. They are two different things and I positively know that because I own both. MidwayUSA does not publish or sell LoadMAPs anymore. A simple check for LoadMAPs, not Loadbooks at Midway will prove it to yourself.


LoadMAPs data are NOT compilations. The LoadMAP manual specifically states that, “Warning: The data contained in this manual was created under strictly controlled conditions* in the laboratories of MidwayUSA.

* Test Conditions: New cases, charges +/- 1/10 grain, temperature 70F +/- 2 degrees and 60% humidity +/- 5%, facility is 758 feet above sea level. This doesn’t sound like compilations to me.


@ RecoilRob- Semper Fi right back atcha - First Marine Air Wing - Cambodia and Laos 1969-1971.

The link about ballistic gel testing was awesome! Lots of usable info and now I’m psyched about getting into it - thank you very much, it was more than just helpful.

I was looking over the info on the 185gr. bullets as you suggested. It reminded me of when my friend and me would ride around his 300 acre pasture and my 25 acre hunt camp looking to shoot armadillos. At that time, circa 1990s, I was testing Remington’s 185gr. +P Golden Sabers in my .45. I was impressed when the round would actually fracture the armadillos shell! We couldn’t even duplicate that with a .223 in an AR-15.

The link showed that the Remington bullet expanded to .75 inch and stayed within 12 to 18 inches - pretty impressive. Only the Winchester Ranger T-series had greater expansion at .99 and 1 inch and did not over penetrate - very impressive!

I’m going to experiment with the Ranger T-series, but I’m still going to go ahead with loading the 250gr. Hornady round.


@ LoonWulf - I’m assuming when you mentioned those higher than standard velocities in the .45 you were using the .45Super cases.

From my research I’ve found credible info that most hollow point bullets will not expand well if the cavity gets clogged with clothing, etc.. That’s why I’m currently carrying Hornady’s Critical Duty ammo in all my SD autos. The tip is filled with a polymer that supposedly (I haven’t found any contrary info about that yet.) will reliably expand through clothing and some other barriers as well. I’m thinking that wet newspaper and dirt will have that effect on expansion. I rarely hunt anymore unless a deer wanders into my backyard and even more rarely with a handgun, so I’m not sure what you were looking for in your hunting ammo - as I recall, while expansion was important it was less important than penetration.

You went above and beyond the call of duty with all the data that you posted! The note in the data, “Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge”

I’m sure took into consideration some of the conditions that might cause a reloader to err on the possibility of over-pressuring a load and causing a hazard and a liability.

In the 250gr. Hornady HP/XTP data you supplied the 10.0gr. charge of Blue Dot was dangerous.

In the LoadMAP manual the max charge was significantly higher than that while still producing a max of 21,000 psi. The LoadMAP info is safe ONLY if the all the rules are followed.

When I figure out how my new “do-all” printer scans a page, I will let you see for yourself how LoadMAP compares with QL data.

I’ll keep what Walkalong said about pressure signs in the .45ACP case in mind from now on. I’ve never seen over pressure in any of my .45ACP loadings and I attribute that to strictly sticking with published data from reputable sources and cautious reloading practices.

Off Topic: I like your avatar and I think it's complimentary to your screen name. It looks like a vampire wolf to me and as such I thought you might enjoy one of the best werewolf transformations I have ever seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AY8mUo3Lf4


@ ArchangelCD - Nothing wrong with guessing, educated or otherwise, as long as you say it’s a guess and I don’t think that you are off base at all. In fact, I’m going to re-think if all this rigmarole I’m going through over a bullet that is 20 grains more than a 230gr. bullet is worth it.

I appreciate the link you posted too - thanks….. Doc

 

[buck460XVR]

@ Walkalong - These loadings will be for defense, so if they don’t expand or don’t give me greater bullet momentum than I can get out of a 230 grain bullet then they are of no use to me.


@ ArchangelCD - Nothing wrong with guessing, educated or otherwise, as long as you say it’s a guess and I don’t think that you are off base at all. In fact, I’m going to re-think if all this rigmarole I’m going through over a bullet that is 20 grains more than a 230gr. bullet is worth it.

JMHO.....
Unless it's for defense against bear or other dangerous game, I have to agree with ArchangelCD, since the 250gr XTP is considered to be a "big Game" bullet for use in .45 Colt with velocities up to 1600fps. Plenty of standard for caliber 230s that will perform much better for SD against 2 legged predators and much more loading data to go with 'em.

 

[Saw-Bones]

@ buck460XVR - I checked Hornady's website and they tout the 250gr. HP/XTP bullet for self defense as well as hunting. Looking up the "standard for caliber" 230gr. HP/XTP bullet, it is also recommended for self defense as well as hunting,

FYI: Notice that Hornady's description posted below for both bullets is exactly the same. Considerations made for it to be a hunting bullet could have resulted for the most common usage and the fact that 930 fps in a .45ACP cartridge cannot be achieved from the run of the mill data manuals.

I'm not saying that either one is better than the other, but it I think it might be worth the effort to see how they pan out after some experimentation. Besides this might be a fun project for me to implement ballistic gel trials in my load preparation or maybe it's just too much time on my hands.

45 Cal .452 250 gr HP XTP®
Item #45200 | 100/Box

Designed for hunting, self-defense and law enforcement applications, the XTP® bullet demonstrates the kind of accuracy that led many competitive shooters to adopt it. Reliable performance makes the XTP® the most popular handgun bullet for both target shooters and hunters. But it's the stopping power of the XTP® bullet that has truly built its world-class reputation. From the onset, XTP® bullets were specifically designed to expand reliably at a wide range of handgun velocities to deliver deep penetration with every shot.
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/45-cal-452-250-gr-hp-xtp#!/


45 Cal .451 230 gr HP XTP®
Item #45160 | 100/Box

Designed for hunting, self-defense and law enforcement applications, the XTP® bullet demonstrates the kind of accuracy that led many competitive shooters to adopt it. Reliable performance makes the XTP® the most popular handgun bullet for both target shooters and hunters. But it's the stopping power of the XTP® bullet that has truly built its world-class reputation. From the onset, XTP® bullets were specifically designed to expand reliably at a wide range of handgun velocities to deliver deep penetration with every shot.
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/45-cal-451-230-gr-hp-xtp#!/

 

[LoonWulf]

@ Varminterror - LoadMAPS are NOT Loadbooks. They are two different things and I positively know that because I own both. MidwayUSA does not publish or sell LoadMAPs anymore. A simple check for LoadMAPs, not Loadbooks at Midway will prove it to yourself.


LoadMAPs data are NOT compilations. The LoadMAP manual specifically states that, “Warning: The data contained in this manual was created under strictly controlled conditions* in the laboratories of MidwayUSA.

* Test Conditions: New cases, charges +/- 1/10 grain, temperature 70F +/- 2 degrees and 60% humidity +/- 5%, facility is 758 feet above sea level. This doesn’t sound like compilations to me.


@ RecoilRob- Semper Fi right back atcha - First Marine Air Wing - Cambodia and Laos 1969-1971.

The link about ballistic gel testing was awesome! Lots of usable info and now I’m psyched about getting into it - thank you very much, it was more than just helpful.

I was looking over the info on the 185gr. bullets as you suggested. It reminded me of when my friend and me would ride around his 300 acre pasture and my 25 acre hunt camp looking to shoot armadillos. At that time, circa 1990s, I was testing Remington’s 185gr. +P Golden Sabers in my .45. I was impressed when the round would actually fracture the armadillos shell! We couldn’t even duplicate that with a .223 in an AR-15.

The link showed that the Remington bullet expanded to .75 inch and stayed within 12 to 18 inches - pretty impressive. Only the Winchester Ranger T-series had greater expansion at .99 and 1 inch and did not over penetrate - very impressive!

I’m going to experiment with the Ranger T-series, but I’m still going to go ahead with loading the 250gr. Hornady round.


@ LoonWulf - I’m assuming when you mentioned those higher than standard velocities in the .45 you were using the .45Super cases.

From my research I’ve found credible info that most hollow point bullets will not expand well if the cavity gets clogged with clothing, etc.. That’s why I’m currently carrying Hornady’s Critical Duty ammo in all my SD autos. The tip is filled with a polymer that supposedly (I haven’t found any contrary info about that yet.) will reliably expand through clothing and some other barriers as well. I’m thinking that wet newspaper and dirt will have that effect on expansion. I rarely hunt anymore unless a deer wanders into my backyard and even more rarely with a handgun, so I’m not sure what you were looking for in your hunting ammo - as I recall, while expansion was important it was less important than penetration.

You went above and beyond the call of duty with all the data that you posted! The note in the data, “Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge”

I’m sure took into consideration some of the conditions that might cause a reloader to err on the possibility of over-pressuring a load and causing a hazard and a liability.

In the 250gr. Hornady HP/XTP data you supplied the 10.0gr. charge of Blue Dot was dangerous.

In the LoadMAP manual the max charge was significantly higher than that while still producing a max of 21,000 psi. The LoadMAP info is safe ONLY if the all the rules are followed.

When I figure out how my new “do-all” printer scans a page, I will let you see for yourself how LoadMAP compares with QL data.

I’ll keep what Walkalong said about pressure signs in the .45ACP case in mind from now on. I’ve never seen over pressure in any of my .45ACP loadings and I attribute that to strictly sticking with published data from reputable sources and cautious reloading practices.

Off Topic: I like your avatar and I think it's complimentary to your screen name. It looks like a vampire wolf to me and as such I thought you might enjoy one of the best werewolf transformations I have ever seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AY8mUo3Lf4


@ ArchangelCD - Nothing wrong with guessing, educated or otherwise, as long as you say it’s a guess and I don’t think that you are off base at all. In fact, I’m going to re-think if all this rigmarole I’m going through over a bullet that is 20 grains more than a 230gr. bullet is worth it.

I appreciate the link you posted too - thanks….. Doc

The cases my loads used were SUPERS. But after reading some stuff on the web I decided to try some heavier loads in standard acp brass, and at least in my gun I didn't see any signs of high pressure at all. I quit before getting too rediculous, but I got far enough that I'd be concerned about a gun being damaged, or having a blow out from opening too soon, before a case just letting go.

For hunting with the lighter 200s I'm really only looking for about 8-10" of penetration and as much damage as I can get. I shoot goats on a friend's property qnd wanted to try my pistol for it.
The 230s blew thru more water jugs than my normal rifle rounds and caused the XD to squirm around more than i wanted, which is why I gave up on them.
For stuff like pigs, where I needed more penetration, I set up cast 250s.

Quickloads uses a 25gr water capacity for the .45acp, I've seen refrencre saying anything from 26-32, which is probably why the data it suggests a lower Max charge.
I tried weighing a case full of water using my super brass, but I'm not exactly sure how full, is full.

And I have to admit, I stole my avatar picture from somewhere on the web. I'm pretty sure I searched goofy wolf and that came up.

 

[buck460XVR]

@ buck460XVR - I checked Hornady's website and they tout the 250gr. HP/XTP bullet for self defense as well as hunting. Looking up the "standard for caliber" 230gr. HP/XTP bullet, it is also recommended for self defense as well as hunting,

FYI: Notice that Hornady's description posted below for both bullets is exactly the same. Considerations made for it to be a hunting bullet could have resulted for the most common usage and the fact that 930 fps in a .45ACP cartridge cannot be achieved from the run of the mill data manuals.

Your examples are just generic descriptions of the XTP line in general. Thinking that any one bullet in the XTP line is best for both hunting big game and for SD/HD is.....well it just is. Speer found that out a few years back with their "Gold Dot" line. Bullets with varying jacket thicknesses intended for different purposes, but having the same name. Folks thought if it said "Gold Dot" on the box it was for hunting or SD. Not so. Kinda why Speer now call their former Gold Dots intended for hunting, "Deep Curls", to avoid the confusion. Velocity doesn't dictate what makes for a great SD or hunting bullet, bullet construction does, along with the desired terminal performance at intended velocities. Those 250 XTPs are good for big game up to 1600 fps. At 900 fps, odds are they are gonna perform more like a JSP or even a FMJ. When hunting big game with a 900fps handgun, you want penetration....not expansion. This is not the case with a 900fps SD handgun. As was said before, there's a reason there's not a lot of recipes for loading a heavy for caliber revolver(cannelured) bullet in .45ACP, and it's not because no one else has thought about doing it. If you made a mistake and bought a 1000 by mistake, I'd say go ahead and give it a try. But I certainly wouldn't waste my money thinking I've discovered the new "magical" SD projectile for .45ACP. There's just too many proven, more reliable SD projectiles out the intended for .45ACP.

 

[Varminterror]

@ Varminterror - LoadMAPS are NOT Loadbooks. They are two different things and I positively know that because I own both. MidwayUSA does not publish or sell LoadMAPs anymore. A simple check for LoadMAPs, not Loadbooks at Midway will prove it to yourself

Didn’t say they were.

I’ve never seen midway sell a loadmap, so when you mentioned having a book on the shelf, I assumed you were mistakenly referring to the Loadbooks USA compilation book. Frankly, Larry would be the last resource I would EVER use for load data, such I wouldn’t have bought their loadmaps, but if you believe in them, good on ya.