Anyone use FMJ ammo as their carry ammo?
- Thread starter Packman
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To be honest, I'm still on the edge. I've been carrying a cz82 in 9x18 for close to a year now, and I've carried both in it - silver bear JHPs, brown bear FMJs, and seller & bellot FMJs.
The JHPs penetrate fine, but in my (admittedly very uncontrolled) testing through wood boards they divert in unpredictable directions where the FMJs do not.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?97837-No-expansion-with-9x18-Silver-Bear-JHPs
suggests that the silver bears don't expand, but I haven't done any expansion tests with mine (though I'm now convinced that I should).
So I've carried JHP, FMJ, dutch loading a couple times, and right now I have a FMJ mag and a JHP mag.
Really I should just pick up a couple boxes of the Buffalo Bore and carry those, but they're too expensive to practice with past a box or two for me.
The JHPs penetrate fine, but in my (admittedly very uncontrolled) testing through wood boards they divert in unpredictable directions where the FMJs do not.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?97837-No-expansion-with-9x18-Silver-Bear-JHPs
suggests that the silver bears don't expand, but I haven't done any expansion tests with mine (though I'm now convinced that I should).
So I've carried JHP, FMJ, dutch loading a couple times, and right now I have a FMJ mag and a JHP mag.
Really I should just pick up a couple boxes of the Buffalo Bore and carry those, but they're too expensive to practice with past a box or two for me.
I still carry FMJ most of the time.
A military background convinced me FMJ can be effective as a killing bullet.
.32acp, .9mm. .45 acp, 5.56 and 7.62, 12 guage buckshot.
It isn't the bullet, it is the ability to put the bullet where it needs to go.
I have found some super duper wonder hollowpoint loads to be incredibly inaccurate and unreliable choices too.
Can you even get dial up anymore??
A military background convinced me FMJ can be effective as a killing bullet.
.32acp, .9mm. .45 acp, 5.56 and 7.62, 12 guage buckshot.
It isn't the bullet, it is the ability to put the bullet where it needs to go.
I have found some super duper wonder hollowpoint loads to be incredibly inaccurate and unreliable choices too.
Can you even get dial up anymore??
sgtcauthon
Member
I would never carry FMJ in any weapon if not forced. In Iraq we had to, NATO blah blah Geneva Convention blah blah so on and so forth. But after hitting enemy combatants with wither 9mm ball, or 5.56mm FMJ and watching them continue on I know first hand, not just based on ballistics, that it is ineffective at stoping an enemy in a firefight. Besides that if that round continues through your target and hits the innocent bystander, now the liberal prosecutors are going to label you a mass murderer who went on a shooting spree, instead of the innocent victim fighting for their life.
amd6547
Member
I prefer FMJ in 45acp and calibers like 9mm makarov and 380. Though my 9mm Beretta 92FS is loaded with 127gn +P+ Ranger JHP's, I wouldnt think twice about using FMJ if that was what I had, and I keep a mag full of FMJ handy when I carry my 9mm.
I dont believe in "magic bullets".
I dont believe in "magic bullets".
bigfatdave
Member
Have you seen the difference in wound track between ball and HP rounds?
The difference is dramatic, it isn't a "magic bullet", it is a superior design for damaging meat.
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but you don't get your own facts.
jimmyraythomason
Member
the "inferior" design works just fine for putting sufficient sized holes in organs (where it counts).
I have FMJ rounds in the .45 Hi point because it mostly a plinker, so I get the cheap ammo and keep it loaded as more of a last ditch option (If the Saiga 7.62 and the 12 guage failed to stop the threat, I think I've passed the point where bullet design will be able to help me very much.)
My SR9 has ball ammo, because when I bought it the guy threw in 40 rounds of ball ammo, and I haven't had a chance to get any HPs yet, let alone do the pre-ammo buying research.
My SR9 has ball ammo, because when I bought it the guy threw in 40 rounds of ball ammo, and I haven't had a chance to get any HPs yet, let alone do the pre-ammo buying research.
Deanimator
Member
...and other people and objects on the far side of those organs. Unlike the NYPD, I don't get to shrug off dead bystanders.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You guys that think hardball is a good fight stopper need to get out and shoot some critters with the stuff. You'll learn real quick the value of tissue disruption.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Can't, not legal here.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Hate to say it, but I just have not seen that on the various deer, hogs and assorted vermin I've shot. IME, 9mm JHP is a much better (200%) bullet than 230 gr FMJ. 230 JHP should be even better, but the fact of the matter is that FMJ (regardless of caliber) is a very poor choice for SD unless your handgun is unreliable with anything else.
124 gr 9mm Gold Dots from a G19 will shoot through a big hogs head and leave an exit wound the size of a quarter.
CSA 357
Member
45 fmj goes in 45 comes out 45 goes threw bone and all, i like big bullets that are pre expanded
jimmyraythomason
Member
This thread hasn't made anymore headway that the half dozen previous ones on the same subject. The same folks say the same things (on both sides) until a moderator decides it has been enough. I guess the same will happen here too. I will continue to carry and shoot what I have since 1972. I suggest everyone else do the same.
deafdave3
Member
In my opinion, and I do believe, that a six inch penetration (or around there) of a hollow-point will cause significant damage to the point of stopping the threat. The damage may not be as visually obvious as that of an over-penetrated FMJ, but I do believe it will stop the threat.
Most importantly, however, an over-penetrated bullet may lead to a major lawsuit.
Dom1104
If that was pointed towards my posting about not knowing the expansion rates of silver bear JHPs even after the expansion rate was posted one post above mine, It's worth noting that that experiment uses silver bear 115gr JHPs. I know those expand. If I could carry them, then I would. However, they haven't made them for years, the 94gr is all that is currently available. Considering none of the others penetrated sufficiently, and I haven't seen testing done with the 94gr JHPs, I stand by my previous comments.
If that wasn't directed at me, then I'll move right along
If that was pointed towards my posting about not knowing the expansion rates of silver bear JHPs even after the expansion rate was posted one post above mine, It's worth noting that that experiment uses silver bear 115gr JHPs. I know those expand. If I could carry them, then I would. However, they haven't made them for years, the 94gr is all that is currently available. Considering none of the others penetrated sufficiently, and I haven't seen testing done with the 94gr JHPs, I stand by my previous comments.
If that wasn't directed at me, then I'll move right along
I've only heard two convincing arguments for FMJs for defense.....
1) My weapon will only feed FMJs reliably.
2) In very small caliber weapons (25, 32, MAYBE 380) the round just doesn't have sufficient energy for proper penetration with HPs.
Other than that I have heard a LOT nonsensical theories. Most of the arguments for FMJs stem from a misreading of the conclusions of the FBI report. If you think I'm wrong then why does the FBI carry HPs?? The bottom line to me is that modern HPs penetrate well and have much more wounding capability than the FMJs. Both are deadly but given a choice I'll take the HPs (two exceptions noted above not withstanding).
1) My weapon will only feed FMJs reliably.
2) In very small caliber weapons (25, 32, MAYBE 380) the round just doesn't have sufficient energy for proper penetration with HPs.
Other than that I have heard a LOT nonsensical theories. Most of the arguments for FMJs stem from a misreading of the conclusions of the FBI report. If you think I'm wrong then why does the FBI carry HPs?? The bottom line to me is that modern HPs penetrate well and have much more wounding capability than the FMJs. Both are deadly but given a choice I'll take the HPs (two exceptions noted above not withstanding).
At one time I carried hollow points in Glock 19, a spare mag of Hollow points, plus a mag further back of Mil Spec hardball (sub gun ammo my constant load now WW 127g Ranger 9mm+P+. Glock 19 16 in weapon, Glock 17 magazine full of same, flash light, and folder as sharp as a razor.
But talking of hard ball, a Buddy of mine, ex Royal Marine Commando 15 years, 7 years RUC Police in Belfast in the troubles, tells a story of a shooting he was in.
He was patrolling with a Soldier (supposed to be a Parra) but Des reckoned he was in the Regiment. Des had a .45 Revolver, and a Sterling Sub Machine gun, they were in the Royal, a Hospital, when a nurse ran up to them, and said that "Two Boyoes had robbed the Post Office" and they had pistols, Des said lock yourself in the Ladies.
They could hear the sound of running, the Soldier tells Des, "step back" not wanting to put a burst of sub gun ammo, down a passage of tiles, Des did.
Soldier stepped around the corner, Browning Hi Power at eye level, two hands, no words, Bang...Bang! And he advances, Des follows, one young man is not moving, he took a round right through the heart (Des went to the Autopsy) the other was hit center chest, spine cut. He twitched for several minutes, expired.
Just seems to be where you put the rounds.
Des headed for Canada, that's where I met him.
my constant load now WW 127g Ranger 9mm+P+. Glock 19 16 in weapon, Glock 17 magazine full of same, flash light, and folder as sharp as a razor.But talking of hard ball, a Buddy of mine, ex Royal Marine Commando 15 years, 7 years RUC Police in Belfast in the troubles, tells a story of a shooting he was in.
He was patrolling with a Soldier (supposed to be a Parra) but Des reckoned he was in the Regiment. Des had a .45 Revolver, and a Sterling Sub Machine gun, they were in the Royal, a Hospital, when a nurse ran up to them, and said that "Two Boyoes had robbed the Post Office" and they had pistols, Des said lock yourself in the Ladies.
They could hear the sound of running, the Soldier tells Des, "step back" not wanting to put a burst of sub gun ammo, down a passage of tiles, Des did.
Soldier stepped around the corner, Browning Hi Power at eye level, two hands, no words, Bang...Bang! And he advances, Des follows, one young man is not moving, he took a round right through the heart (Des went to the Autopsy) the other was hit center chest, spine cut. He twitched for several minutes, expired.
Just seems to be where you put the rounds.
Des headed for Canada, that's where I met him.
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Deanimator said:
So what happens to those people if your HP fails to expand or you miss?
You should be sure of your background regardless of what kind of ammo you are using
If you check into it you'll find that most of those NYPD bystander hits were from misses not bullets that had already penetrated a perp.
While I prefer HPs I'm not going to take a risky shot with bystanders behind the target just because I've got HPs loaded in my pistol. Unlike NYPD I don't get to shrug off dead bystanders
ljnowell
Member
To hear some of the people here talk it would seem that any person could just shake off a 45 shot if it was FMJ. Of course, it wont kill the person you shot, but easily take out anyone behind them, right? C'mon people.
Justin Holder
Member
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The 45acp 230gr. FMJ load has always been known as a man stopper, not a man "killer".
A round nose FMJ can not produce the same amount of tissue damage as a expanding bullet or a flat point semi wad-cutter.
Were basically talking butter knife vs steak knife.
A round nose FMJ can not produce the same amount of tissue damage as a expanding bullet or a flat point semi wad-cutter.
Were basically talking butter knife vs steak knife.
wally
Member
Only FMJ in .25ACP. .32, & .380 as penetration is what these are lacking, and expansion doesn't help!
The three most important things are bullet placement, placement, and penetration -- inadequate penetration is the only thing that will make a well placed shot fail.
Case in point, the Reagan assassination attempt where two accidentally well placed shots were true one shot drops and the intended victim didn't know he was shot until he saw the blood
The three most important things are bullet placement, placement, and penetration -- inadequate penetration is the only thing that will make a well placed shot fail.
Case in point, the Reagan assassination attempt where two accidentally well placed shots were true one shot drops and the intended victim didn't know he was shot until he saw the blood
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