Anyone using Red Dot in 9mm?

[Hugger-4641]

Curious if anyone is using fairly new Red Dot in 9mm?
The Lyman 50th lists Red Dot for 380, 10mm, and 45acp, but not 9mm. None of my other current manuals list Red Dot at all.
I am curious to compare notes because I have 3lbs of vintage Herco Red Dot.
My Lyman 44th did have 9mm data for this, so I have loaded and tested some 9mm rds that I'm actually pretty happy with for plinking. I'd like to know how close my data is to the "modern" Red Dot you can buy today.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Curious if anyone is using fairly new Red Dot in 9mm?
The Lyman 50th lists Red Dot for 380, 10mm, and 45acp, but not 9mm. None of my other current manuals list Red Dot at all.
I am curious to compare notes because I have 3lbs of vintage Herco Red Dot.
My Lyman 44th did have 9mm data for this, so I have loaded and tested some 9mm rds that I'm actually pretty happy with for plinking. I'd like to know how close my data is to the "modern" Red Dot you can buy today.

I mostly load lead up with Red Dot using powder I bought in 2015 or so and Lymans 45th data. I got some Saeco 925 mold 115gr SWC cast from a fellow who quit reloading and I load them over 5.0gr of Red Dot for a hot target load. Nice thing about Red Dot is you can run it hot with cast and not have leading problems as long as they’re lubed with good wax.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I run Promo in 9mm, but not for hot loads. I'm loading 125gr Lee RF, at easy target velocities.

I load just enough powder to cycle the slide, and drop the brass off to my right.

Velocity is usually under 1000 fps, depending on firearm used.

 

[Goofball84]

About a month ago i loaded up some 9mm 124gr extreme round nose and 124gr berrys round nose. I loaded up a mag of for each load and fired from a S&W PC 9mm Shield EZ. (The S&W is new and after break in I may go back and try the low end of loads again.) I settled on 3.6gr of promo to load up a few hundred rounds. The consistency felt better around there.

4gr Promo - average 990fps; std 24.9fps; average 122 PF; std 3.05
3.8gr Promo - average 863fps; std 2.8fps; average 106.5 PF; std 0.7 (only 2 of 7 shot registered on chrono)
3.6gr Promo - average 895fps; std 13.2fps; average 110.6 PF; std 1.63
3.4gr Promo - average 885fps; std 17fps; average 109 PF; std 1.89 (4 of 7 shots registered on chrono)
3gr Promo - average 785fps; std 31.29fps; average 98.8 PF; std 3.9 (2 shots failed to completely cycle the slide)

 

[Hugger-4641]

I've been using HS-6 and CFE pistol for 9mm, but I had this 3lb can of old Red Dot, so I decided to see if it would make a good plinking round. So after a small work up, I'm at 4.9gr with a 124gr rn fmj. Getting a consistent 1040 to 1060fps in the pistol and 1250 in PC carbine. What I really like is the case is full. I think any more than 5.5gr would probably be compressed.
BTW, this can of red dot is circa 1970 vintage.

 

[FROGO207]

I am also using a three year old bottle of Promo using Red Dot data. Using 3.8 grains with Missouri Bullet Small Ball 124 grain round nose bullets. Works the same as some old RD from the 70's I used in the past. Accurate, clean, and inexpensive. What's not to like.

 

[forrest r]

A link to the 2005 allaint reloading manual. It's what I consider the last of the "great" pistol/revolver manuals they put out/page #42.
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2005.pdf

I actually like the 2003 allaint manual better, same data but with red borders when printed. I print the pistol/revolver data pages along with the cowboy action data page. Very useful!!!
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2003.pdf

Either of these manuals will have data for the reddot/9mm combo with bullets weighing 95gr to 147gr

 

[LiveLife]

Curious if anyone is using fairly new Red Dot in 9mm?

Red Dot has been around for a while. Alliant released Promo around 10 years ago which is at same burn rate as Red Dot but has different density and flake shape. Promo initially looked like Red Dot without red flakes along with large round flakes but in recent years, it is all large round flakes and meter quite well - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/c-h-502-micrometer-powder-measure-10-drops.834894/

I am curious to compare notes because I have 3lbs of vintage Herco Red Dot.

Disclaimer: Following post contains load data not currently published and use them at your own risk.

Here are some of my notes.

I like Red Dot for 9mm and 45ACP, especially for lead bullets. Since the previous shortage of 2013, I tested Promo using Red Dot load data by weight as indicated by Alliant and referenced 2004 Alliant load data for my load development with Promo - http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/promo.aspx

I transitioned my 9mm loads from Red Dot to Promo and after Alliant rebleneded it, Promo meters much better with more consistent performance than Red Dot, especially for carbine loads - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blended-promo-for-more-accurate-loads.841097/

Here's Speer's current load data - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...gun/9mm_caliber_355-366_dia/9mm_Luger_125.pdf

• 125 gr Lead RN Red Dot OAL 1.130" Start 3.3 gr (888 fps) - Max 3.6 gr (1004 fps)

And 2004 Alliant load data (Note the difference in OAL and max velocities) - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

• 95 gr FMJ Red Dot COL 1.055" Max 5.3 gr (1285 fps)

• 115 gr FMJ Red Dot COL 1.120" Max 4.5 gr (1150 fps)

• 125 gr Lead Red Dot COL 1.150" Max 4.5 gr (1145 fps)

• 125 gr FMJ Red Dot COL 1.150" Max 4.6 gr (1145 fps)

• 147 gr XTP Red Dot COL 1.140" Max 3.4 gr (895 fps)

For 147 gr Z-Cast Lead FP, I load to 1.160" with 3.3-3.5 gr of Promo - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-147g-9mm-subsonics.824456/#post-10607922

147 gr Z-Cast Lead FP was tested at 1.155"-1.160" OAL using Glock 22 and KKM 40-9mm conversion with reference load of 3.5 gr W231/HP-38.

3.1-3.3 gr Promo reliably cycled the slide and produced light recoil. 3.3-3.5 gr produced greater accuracy with mild recoil and produced following groups at 10 yards

For 124 gr Z-Cast Lead RN with more pointed "stepped" nose, I load to 1.125" OAL with 4.0 gr of Promo which I used as reference load for this thread (Note that Speer load data lists lower 3.3/3.6 gr for 1.130" so I suggest testing 3.6 gr first) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-and-herco-for-jacketed-lead-plated-bullets.745656/

For 124 gr FMJ/plated RN, I load to 1.135" with 3.8 - 4.0 gr of Promo.

For 115 gr FMJ/plated RN, I load to 1.130" with 4.0-4.2 gr (Target load) or 4.2-4.4 gr of Promo (Factory white box like load. Almost 100% case fill load) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...for-more-accurate-loads.841097/#post-10919894

For 115 gr FMJ FP Match Winner, I load to 1.045" with 4.2 gr of Promo (Almost 100% case fill load) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-4#post-11219888

I find Red Dot/Promo well suitable for carbine loads, especially blowback action, as faster burn rate seems to seal the case better with chamber and produces less sooty cases than slower burning than W231/HP-38 powders with greater accuracy.

BTW, for 115 gr FMJ/plated RN, 4.0-4.2 gr of Promo but loaded shorter at 1.110"-1.115" to squeeze out more accuracy and produced mild recoil target load. 4.4-4.5 gr of Promo produces firmer recoil on par with factory load with greater accuracy.

For 100 gr Thick Plated RN, I load to 1.050" with 4.5-4.7 gr of Promo (100% case fill load) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-3#post-10245856

For 95 gr FMJ RN, I load to 1.055" with 5.0 gr of Promo (100% case fill load) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-4#post-11387109

Here are some Promo chrono data (These are carbine loads so subtract around 200 fps for pistol velocities. BTW, Promo is reverse temperature sensitive - Higher velocity at colder temps) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-4#post-10338994

100 gr RMR HM RN 4.3-4.5 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1442-1428-1478-1431-1462 fps (~60F - JR carbine)
100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps (~60F - JR carbine)

115 gr Berry's HBRN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1275-1261-1316-1287-1294 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
115 gr Berry's HBRN 4.5-4.6 gr Promo @ 1.130": 1414-1377-1375-1420-1372 (75 F - JR carbine)

115 gr RMR HM RN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1204-1276-1259-1273-1247 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.0-4.2 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1331-1358-1346 fps (59 F - PSA carbine - ran out of test rounds)
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1351-1364-1363-1357-1342 (71 F - JR carbine)

124 gr RMR HM RN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.160": 1231-1201-1210-1227-1193 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
124 gr RMR HM RN 4.2-4.3 gr Promo @ 1.160": 1258-1263-1251-1244-1266 fps (68 F - PSA carbine)
124 gr RMR HM RN 4.2-4.3 gr Promo @ 1.160": 1298-1277-1261-1276-1293 fps (68 F - JR carbine)

 

[Hugger-4641]

Very interesting, Thanks!
That 95gr load looks interesting. I have some hollow base 95gr rn that I'm thinking about trying.

 

[Pottimus]

Yes I used it on Lee 125 cast I had, I liked it. There is an old thread here about it, I had found before trying.

 

[LiveLife]

3lb can of old Red Dot ... good plinking round.

I'm at 4.9gr with a 124gr rn fmj. Getting a consistent 1040 to 1060fps in the pistol and 1250 in PC carbine. What I really like is the case is full. I think any more than 5.5gr would probably be compressed.

If you are looking for lighter plinking/target load, you are already over max of published load data.

What is your OAL? 2004 Alliant load data listed 4.6 gr as max for 124 gr FMJ using longer 1.150" OAL.

• 125 gr FMJ Red Dot COL 1.150" Max 4.6 gr (1145 fps)

And if you are getting 1040-1060 fps with 4.9 gr (1250 fps in carbine), I would make sure the scale is reading the powder charges correctly verified with check weights. Here are my chrono numbers using even longer 1.160" OAL as OAL and max charges were calculated so I got essentially 100% case fill with top of powder charge right under the bottom of the bullets.

• 124 gr RMR HM RN 4.2-4.3 gr Promo @ 1.160": 1298-1277-1261-1276-1293 fps (68 F - JR carbine)

I definitely would not recommend you testing 5.5 gr. If you are using shorter OAL, I would use more conservative load data as 3.9 - 4.0 gr of Promo at 1.160" already produced 125 PF load for lighter target/plinking load (Perhaps 130 PF with shorter OAL).

• 124 gr RMR HM RN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.160": 1231-1201-1210-1227-1193 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)

Be safe.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Summing up...

I'd like to know how close my data is to the "modern" Red Dot you can buy today.

You're at 4.9gr for approx. 1050fps from (what kind of?) pistol.

4gr Promo - average 990fps; std 24.9fps; average 122 PF; std 3.05

You're almost a full grain off of Goofball's brand new Promo (EDIT: S&W PC 9mm Shield EZ - Thanks @LiveLife I missed that first time!), which is almost exactly mostly like Red Dot except not really.

 

[LiveLife]

4.9gr for approx. 1050fps from (what kind of?) pistol

You're almost a full grain off of Goofball's [S&W PC 9mm Shield EZ]

I agree. While I expect drop in muzzle velocity from shorter barrel subcompact, being 1.0 gr heavier on powder charge is perplexing.

Keep in mind, OP is using "vintage Herco" brand Red Dot (I am thinking OP meant Hercules that was bought out by Alliant) so perhaps that's where the difference could be explained as Alliant may have updated the Red Dot formulation from when "Hercules" was making Red Dot.

vintage Herco Red Dot.

I'd like to know how close my data is to the "modern" Red Dot you can buy today.

I did have 8 lb jug of Hercules brand Red Dot and don't recall velocities being that far off from Promo (No, the 8 lb jug of "Hercules" Red Dot was PIF already during current shortage so can't do any more comparison testing)

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I agree. While I expect drop in muzzle velocity from shorter barrel subcompact, being 1.0 gr heavier on powder charge is perplexing.

Time for a good hard sniff test? Maybe see if it's close to degassing?

 

[Zendude]

Red Dot has become my preferred powder for 9mm. 4.1 grn under a 115 grn copper plated bullet at 1.145 OAL is a light and accurate load with “modern” Red Dot that works well for me.

 

[FROGO207]

A crono is a good investment to make sure your results match well with printed data. Then you know things have not deteriorated. I went years without a crono but feel it is another layer of safety that is now affordable to the reloader.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Time for a good hard sniff test? Maybe see if it's close to degassing?

I have checked it , so far it is fine. I was Chono testing with a SCCY sub compact, 3" barrel and also with my Ruger PC carbine. I would expect if the powder was close to degassing that my chrono results would be more sporadic, but they were really consistent in the PCC and not bad in the SCCY. 1050 +- about 20 in the SCCY, +- about 12 in the PCC

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have checked it , so far it is fine. I was Chono testing with a SCCY sub compact, 3" barrel and also with my Ruger PC carbine. I would expect if the powder was close to degassing that my chrono results would be more sporadic, but they were really consistent in the PCC and not bad in the SCCY. 1050 +- about 20 in the SCCY, +- about 12 in the PCC

Interesting. Never hurts to check. That 5.0gr. load I use is with lead, not jacketed, and is very nice in my FEG Hi-Power clone. I worked it up in my old Star M30 where it was my goto load for a long time. I had to get rid of that gun, though. Sad but we needed money and the ambi safety would gash my thumb when racking the slide at least once every outing so it had to go. The FEG likes the load well enough. I'm surprised you're not getting closer to at least 1200fps out of 4.9gr, even with a 3" bbl. FWIW I use standard primers in all of my 9mm and mixed brass.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

...in my old Star M30....

I bought one brand new back around 1988 or so, I would have to look up the receipt.

Still have it. I shoot it occasionally, but no longer use it as an EDC.

I used to carry it in a shoulder holster under a light jacket.
That piece of iron is so dang heavy, I have no idea how I carried it around. It got so that I was listing to the left, so I had to quit toting it around. It must weigh over 2 - 1/2 pounds loaded.

That is one serious piece of equipment. I saw one up for sale locally about 3 years ago, made a half-hearted stab at buying it, but the owner didn't really want to sell.

I need to get it out and shoot it. Maybe this weekend.

 

[Thomasss]

I talked with Ben Amonette, Technical Service Manager at Alliant Powder on June 21, 2012.
He said they took Red Dot out of 9mm loads because the powder charge was so light and fluffy, they could not get it accurately drop a consistent load in any type production equipment. THERE FORE ALL RED DOT LOADS MUST BE INDIVIDUALLY WEIGHED. Then he gave me the following load information:
115 Jacketed 3.7 to 4.2
125 Lead 3.6 to 4.1
125 Jacketed 3.7 to 4.2
He gave me 9mm loads using all Alliant powders at that time. There was no load info for 95 grain bullets and Red Dot cannot be used for any bullet weight above 125 grain projectiles.
My best groups have been at 4.0 grains with MBC 124 Hi-Tek Groove-less in a Springfield XDM.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I talked with Ben Amonette, Technical Service Manager at Alliant Powder on June 21, 2012.
He said they took Red Dot out of 9mm loads because the powder charge was so light and fluffy, they could not get it accurately drop a consistent load in any type production equipment. THERE FORE ALL RED DOT LOADS MUST BE INDIVIDUALLY WEIGHED. Then he gave me the following load information:
115 Jacketed 3.7 to 4.2
125 Lead 3.6 to 4.1
125 Jacketed 3.7 to 4.2
He gave me 9mm loads using all Alliant powders at that time. There was no load info for 95 gain bullets and Red Dot cannot be used for any bullet weight above 125 grain projectiles.
My best groups have been at 4.0 grains with MBC 124 Hi-Tek Groove-less in a Springfield XDM.

Well, I do weight all of my loads, regardless of powder, so I'm safe there. The max load for a 115-120 gr. lubed 9mm SWC (Lyman #356402 in #2 Alloy) for decades - at least from the mid-50's to late 90's - was 5.0gr. I have to wonder if the decision to deprecate that load came because of the popularity of automatic powder measures which couldn't throw a consistent load of Red Dot, like Mr. Amonette implies, or if someone lawyered up after sloppy measuring got them hurt. Either way, I'll keep using that load until I'm out of those Seaco 925 bullets, or out of Red Dot, or don't have any 9mm pistols anymore - whatever comes first; but I won't recommend it anymore.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I talked with Ben Amonette, Technical Service Manager at Alliant Powder on June 21, 2012.
He said they took Red Dot out of 9mm loads because the powder charge was so light and fluffy, they could not get it accurately drop a consistent load in any type production equipment. THERE FORE ALL RED DOT LOADS MUST BE INDIVIDUALLY WEIGHED. Then he gave me the following load information:
115 Jacketed 3.7 to 4.2
125 Lead 3.6 to 4.1
125 Jacketed 3.7 to 4.2
He gave me 9mm loads using all Alliant powders at that time. There was no load info for 95 gain bullets and Red Dot cannot be used for any bullet weight above 125 grain projectiles.
My best groups have been at 4.0 grains with MBC 124 Hi-Tek Groove-less in a Springfield XDM.

He's right about the light and fluffy. I'm weighing each charge but using my Auto drum. If I set it up for 4.9, I'll get about 5 out of ten that are right on, occasionally one @4.8 and the rest at 5.0, every once in a while 5.1.
I'll let the 4.8 go, but the 5.0 or more gets dumped back in the hopper and dropped again.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I wonder if humidity has that much of an effect. The day I chrono'd those, it was raining lightly, 100% humidity and about 88F.

 

[LiveLife]

I wonder if humidity has that much of an effect. The day I chrono'd those, it was raining lightly, 100% humidity and about 88F.

No.

I live at the coast with 80" - 100" annual rain fall and much time from late fall to spring rain season, we are at 100% humidity. My chrono testing data were obtained essentially at 80% - 100%.

When I shot in the rain with rain gear/rain canopy set up, wife asked whether rain drops would deflect bullet path through air ... I went, "Good question ... May have to do a myth busting thread to test."

 

[Hugger-4641]

No.

I live at the coast with 80" - 100" annual rain fall and much time from late fall to spring rain season, we are at 100% humidity. My chrono testing data were obtained essentially at 80% - 100%.

When I shot in the rain with rain gear/rain canopy set up, wife asked whether rain drops would deflect bullet path through air ... I went, "Good question ... May have to do a myth busting thread to test."

That's a good question, never really thought about it. I suspect that at pistol distances, rain wouldn't deflect or slow down the bullet enough to notice. I've made rifle shots in the rain at 100+ yards and hit where I aimed, but I also suspect that beyond 300 or 400yds it could possibly affect a rifle bullet's trajectory.