Apellee's brief in Parker v. District of Columbia

Status
Not open for further replies.
"Apparently, the discussion was over whether the 2d Amt only covered militia weapons "in common use" at the time of the Signing. One of DC's arguments was that pistols were not commonly used back then, at least as compared to muskets."

Can "common use" really be used that subjectively? Compared to knives muskets were rare too. I know that's useless rhetoric, but its true. At what point do the courts decide not to include something in the subjective comparison of common use? Perhaps if its a like device?

Its still making my head spin, but I think I'm beginning to understand the bulk of it.

Doesn't seem like Kim is making any headway.
 
The common use argument is specious at best. Consider using such an argument as it would apply to 1A issues of free speech!

It's a non-starter.
 
DC bans swords too. Doubt the DA would be supporting the overturning of that law based on the same "common use" argument.

The ultimate problem with anti-2nd-Amendment legal arguments is that the only way to support them is to use arguments which ultimately allow weapons. "Common use"? then swords become legal. "Militia use"? then machineguns become legal. "Collective ownership"? then the gov't must give weapons & training to all. It's all based on the theory "you have a right, you're just not exercising it correctly" - at some point some activity must be legal.
 
The Second Amendment Amends!

Both of the arguments presented to the court of appeals are sterile because both read too much into the amendment. The Second Amendment amends the Constitution; to understand its meaning, one must explore all relevant constitutional passages relating to the militia and use of the sword, plus their constitutional history. What needs to be answered is how the amendment changed any of that.

Here is what I teach my U.S. history students:

The Constitution was drafted by men of the Enlightenment for the better government of the United States than that which had been provided by the Articles of Confederation. Almost all those who met at Philadelphia in 1787 were convinced the Articles were fatally flawed and needed serious revision at minimum and more likely scrapping in favor of a new plan. Under the Articles, Congress wanted several important powers, including the power to tax and the power to raise its own troops. This made the federal government inherently too weak.

But, the powers to tax and to raise troops are terrible powers, and those who were expected to pass upon the proposed new government -- the people who would ratify the Constitution or not -- were known to be wary of them. The plan put forward had to address their concerns. Even the drafters knew that the powers to tax and raise armies were great powers which had to be controlled carefully.

There was one thing that the Founders all agreed upon, and that was that the people could be trusted, as a mass, to do the right thing in terms of preserving their own happiness and security. But, to insure that even this check did not evaporate -- and remember that all of the Founders were revolutionaries who had overthrown a central government successfully -- the Constitution's drafters set into the document fundamental checks and balances to insure that power could not be abused, and that liberty would be secure.

Most of us are familiar with many of these checks and balances. We know, for example, that the federal government was divided into three branches, and that the government really does not work very well unless all of those three branches agree to work together. That is critical to securing liberty.

The Founders went even beyond that, for it occurred to them that our central government, like the one they had rebelled against, could become corrupt and could oppress the people, internal checks and balances notwithstanding. There had to be a check on that kind of corruption.

What was these men's experience? They had united what had become the State governments to resist and obstruct the central government's (the Crown's) actions. And that really is the key to our understanding here. It is not enough to resist oppression. The Founders wanted people to be able to successfully resist oppression. While an armed citizenry certainly can help in such an endeavor, by alone it is not enough. What was needed was a mechanism for carrying out organized resistance.

The Founders knew what that mechanism was: State governments operating in concert against a central oppressor, hopefully with some outside assistance. After all, that is how we won the Revolution. Yes, an armed population could be an effective deterent to tyranny; but, one needed the political organization of a State to make such a deterent effective.

But, there is a problem here: States, themselves, could become corrupt. What if it were the federal government which was virtuous, and a State or league of states which was evil? Answering this question frames the debate about the actual meaning of the Second Amendment.

The citizens of revolutionary America feared standing armies as potential oppressors; they did not want one. They did not want their states to have one, nor were they keen on giving such power to Congress. At the same time, Congress was seen as the single authority which could be trusted with overall supervision of national defense -- recall there were some pretty nasty national enemies of America loose in the world in that time. The country needed something to keep e.g. the British off of us, and that something had to have its own check against becoming an oppressor.

The Founders solved the problem by creating potentially conflicting loyalties. On the one hand, the Constitution defined treason as levying war on the United States or aiding and abetting her enemies. But remember that States had their own treason laws too -- the notorious John Brown (of Harper's Ferry fame) was convicted of treason against Virginia, not the United States. Convention delegate Luther Martin (from Maryland), who subsequently opposed the Constitution, put it succinctly when he warned that, were Maryland and the United States to get into a fight, the citizens of Maryland would have to side with one -- and in so doing become a traitor to the other. This, responded Alexander Hamilton (in The Federalst, No. 28), was exactly what was needed -- in any physical fight over what the Constitution means, it must be the people who decide, and if necessary with their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. In any fight over what the Constitution means, the people must choose which side they are on and act accordingly. And to make such a choice more than an intellectual exercise, the people had to be armed.

The right to keep and bear arms is not in the Second Amendment; it is in the fine structure of the Constitution itself and cannot disappear, unless the Constitution itself be overthrown. But, these "arms" are the arms needed to resist a tyrant's army and have little to do with carrying pocket pistols for personal self defense.

What, then, is the Second Amendment? To make the Congress effective in national defense, it had to have power to raise its own army; but, no one wanted it to have a big army. The backbone of the forces was seen to be in the State militias -- with every State having its own militia, the military power effectively was divided among many, not concentrated in a few. Problem: What makes a good army? Answer: It has to be "regulated" in the 18th Century meaning of the term. This does not mean "controlled" as the term is used today but, rather, disciplined so that it works together as a team. That means, for example, that there have to be rules in place so, e.g., everyone has the same kind of gun, or the same frequency of radio.

When you're in a battle, trust me: It's chaotic. No one really knows exactly what is going on; there's just a bunch of noise and craziness. And if your gun breaks in the middle of the fight, it certainly is very comforting to be able to get the gun of a fallen buddy and put your ammo in it and have it work. Or scarf the parts to fix your own weapon. Or top up your rounds so that you don't run out of bullets. That does not happen by accident; it happens because someone somewhere made it happen, by properly regulating the system.

There was only one power which could do that intelligently, and the Founders knew it (and debated it in convention): Congress had to have power to arm, equip, and discipline the militias, so if called upon for national defense, they all could work together. This power cannot safely be entrusted to any body other than Congress.

That brings us right back to the corruption problem: What if Congress does become corrupt? What if it tries to take our freedoms away?

If Congress has the power to raise its own troops, and it also has the power to arm the militias, if it does become corrupt, what is to prevent Congress from giving its own forces tanks and machine guns and airplanes, while it equips the militias with slings and arrows? Opponents of the Constitution quickly pounced on this weakness.

Vote "no" on the Constitution, they warned.

Supporters' solution was the Second Amendment, which guaranties to the States the power to be free from such pernicious federal regulation. But, that guarantee exists within a system which already recognized the individual right to keep and bear arms. And that, in a nutshell, is why those focusing only on the Amendment rationally can have conflicting views re what exactly is protected, for the language seems to support either position. It is only when we step back and look at the entire constitutional system that we realize that rights to arms are individual, though of a special character, just like the right to vote. Every citizen individually has the right to vote, but until we hold an election, the individual right is meaningless. Similarly with the right to arms. The Founders were men of the Enlightenment -- men of reason. They were not gun-toting crazies, nor did they want to turn all the cities of America into Dodge City. They would have been aghast at the idea of some terrorist gang securing weapons and using them in a criminal or treasonous enterprise to frustrate the law, and in the Federalist Papers, co-author James Madison referred to such groups as "factions" (a derogatory term). Recall that Shay's Rebellion was the very reason the Constitutional Convention came together in the first place. The Founders expected political organizations to show they at least had demonstrable public support by requiring them first to capture political control of a state government. Civil control of these functions comes first, not last, in any reasoned system of liberty.

So, how should the court of appeals decide the Parker case? The first thing they have to do is look at the weapons requested: Are they firearms appropriate to militia use? The statute outlaws all handguns, and in the abstract, that's too much -- it equally prohibits Derringers and a .45 auto-loader (the latter of which clearly is a military arm). But, my question is: Do any of the plaintiffs in this case claim to own, or desire to own, a .45 auto-loader (or other similar device)? If not, theirs is a plea solely for personal protection, which normally would be a question of state law only (Congress has no power to regulate in these areas). I personally believe that the D.C. ordinance is wrong; but, D.C. is not a State, and therefore relief must come from that part of the government which has plenary power over the District. Congress, not the courts, is the proper forum for redress of this grievance, to the extent it does not involve the keeping or bearing of arms in any military capacity or insuring a citizen has a real power to elect whom to serve in a constitutional crisis.

Unless the plaintiffs are bringing some kind of joint claim, encompasing both military and personal issues, their appeal should fail. The plaintiffs have no standing to sue.

My respect to judges Silberman and Griffith; have a happy -- and peaceful -- new year!
 
Interesting. Well put.

Something important to address:
What if Congress fails to appropriately exercise its power to arm, train & organize the militia? What then of "the right of the people"?

The Militia Act of 1792 saw to it that all who would likely be called into service were similarly (if minimally) equipped, and knew their role in the organization.
This was replace by the National Guard and our current Congressional definition of "militia". This makes sense in the modern military entailing large, complex and expensive weapons systems deployed around the world, and is fine for the "organized militia". Unfortunately, the "unorganized militia" leaves the rest without weapons, training or organization - and on the whole, the states are not stepping up to fill the void ... nonetheless, they are militia members who can be called up! The DCM/CMP program makes a faint attempt to fulfill the void, giving the few inclined to participate a chance to obtain a couple hours of basic training and an antique rifle of iffy quality (no wait, they've sold out of those completely now).

Thus we're left with most militia members officially discouraged from owning modern "common use" weapons, much less learning how to use them, and no organization worth mentioning past a one-time Selective Service signup. Anyone who wants anything akin thereto is left with choosing equipment without recommendation or coordination - if even allowed by their state.

What does this have to do with Parker?
The weapons the Founding Fathers primarily intended for militia use were surely not discouraged from use in hunting, sport and defense. Being armed for "security of a free state" also inherently meant being armed for individual purposes. But having neglected to promote commonality of arms, people seek out what they see fit; by neglecting to create standards, no claim of "not suitable" can be made. Further, having eliminated the option of arms entirely in some places (i.e.: DC), the "right of the people" has been plainly crushed into oblivion. As personal use is the first symptom of the oppression, it is the first to manifest itself in court; to toss the case as merely a "local or non-militia matter" is to ignore the disease of a populace unable to provide for "the security of a free state".
Hence: Parker's complaint involving personal defense with arguably non-militia arms comes about precisely because of neglect of the militia, coupled with active suppression of the right to arm oneself in a militia-suitable manner. Had the plaintiffs been encouraged (as Congress is empowered to do) to equip themselves in a militia-suitable manner (say, with an M1911 pistol), the ability to equip themselves for self-defense would not have been an issue.
 
I hope you have very small classes, and many troublemakers. In my opinion the less evaluating, translating, and "considering the whole constitution" you do is your business. What our youngest group of citizens learns can only come from what you teach.

May I ask what your opinion on what firearms you should be able to "keep and bear"? In consideration of the "whole constitution" of course.

In my opinion, I have the right to say anything I wish that is not harmful to someone. I have the right to worship as I please, even if I want to praise John Jones, as a prophet. I have the right to buy, and carry any weapon I choose.

I consider myself to have rights, as being one "of the people" as the constitution refers to us, in the first and second amendments.
 
As I noted somewhere (there's so many threads about this case now): the problem with "collective right" arguments (as DC is attempting) is that ultimately they must conclude that everyone has a right to own M16s, M2s, F16s, etc. - exactly not where proponents of that theory want to go with it.

Congress has declared me part of the militia. As such, Congress has a power - and hence duty - to "well-regulate" me by at least allowing me to purchase an M4 (yes, select-fire) & M1911, provide training, and arrange organization into a militia. This must be separate from the National Guard, as I have been defined as being part of the militia outside the National Guard.

...BTW: I still hold to the individual right theory, especially as Congress & the states have grossly neglected their duty. Until they take their part seriously, there is simply no argument against me owning & carrying what I like.
 
Second Amendment and standing to sue.

The responders so far appear to be missing the point: There are two rights here, one involving the federal government and one none of its business (except in DC, Puerto Rico, other territories).

The Constitution establishes the federal government as supreme, but only in the exercise of those great powers specifically delegated to it. Per the Tenth Amendment, the remaining powers belong to the people or the States.

Therefore, the Constitution would have nothing in it re what Congress cannot do specifically if the area is one in which it cannot act at all. Indeed, this was the argument of some Federalists against a Bill of Rights -- that it only would allow the judiciary to use the want of specification for truncating unenumerated rights. (Madison answered this objection by drafting the Ninth Amendment.)

So, there is nothing in the Constitution -- not about rights or powers -- concerning possession of weapons for personal defense, because this is an area subject solely to state law. It is why places like Connecticut have in their constitutions a right to arms specifically for self-defense. And of course some states have no such provision, and there is where we have problems.

The situation is very different when we are talking military arms, and specifically militia arms (there is a difference). There can be no question re Congress' power here -- there is a specific grant of power. And if that power is not to be used corruptly, it has to be limited -- checked. The Second Amendment is one of these checks.

The problem with the Parker case (if I read the complaint correctly) is that it deals solely with the right of personal protection. Since that is a matter for state law, there is nothing in the federal constitution about it, for or against. But, the fly in the ointment is that we are in D.C., and D.C. is not a state (it is a district governed plenarily by Congress). Provided it does not violate any actual rights of federal citizens in the process, it can do what it wants about firearms -- the Second Amendment simply does not apply.

So, what does one have to plead?

The federal right to arms is structural, is military, and exists to insure citizens an effective choice of princes in the event there be a constitutional crisis. Furthermore, there is a difference between militia and military arms -- military arms would be any arms (up to atomic bombs) useful in a military capacity, whereas militia arms are those appropriate for use by the militia (a body organized to suppress insurrections and repel invasions). Militia arms appropriate to civilian use traditionally include small arms (as opposed to cannons or the like, which at one time the States kept in state armories). But, remember: There is such a thing as the Geneva Convention. As a matter of international law, the "small arms" must be arms which soldiers would carry openly -- in plain view. Stated succinctly, a .45 auto-loader (Army Colt) qualifies; a Derringer does not.

So, you want to bring a Second Amendment/federal-rights case? Fine, but you have to bring it in a State, and you have to plead the actual right. If you are not legally injured by the state action (or federal action), you have no standing, and the court has no jurisdiction because there is no case (see Article III). Parker will (and should) fail if all it pleads is the right to have a pocket pistol because these are not militia arms, and the federal constitution itself has no provision in it guaranteeing the separate right of self-defense -- Parker & Co. are not among the injured.

That does not mean Parker loses. (1) Parker can go to Congress and get it to overrule the D.C. law. (2) Parker can file a new suit which makes a joint claim.

A joint claim exists when the weapon for which protection is sought as a militia arm also doubles as private protection. Army Colts, 9mm Berettas, even .223 semi-automatic "assault" rifles are in this class (I own at least two of the above). Notice however that the AK-47, AKS, and similar weapons well might not qualify because they are not standard U.S. issue (the purpose of the "arm, equip, and discipline" provision is to assure a uniformity of arms, so courts will allow Congress to nix them). In the joint claim, the principal allegation is that the individual right created by federal constitutional structure will be violated imminently in the absence of a court's award of extraordinary relief (injunction). Self defense (unless alleged as a concurrent state claim) goes along as a free rider. The allegation looks something like: Joe Jones, a poor patriot, can afford only one gun and seeks to own [insert gun], an arm appropriate to militia use; which ownership defendants, if not enjoined by this court, intend imminently and vigorously to prosecute as a crime, in violation of Jones's federal structural right to keep and bear arms.

That allegation creates standing to sue.

Parker has it backward -- the self-defense claim is everything; militia arms aren't even mentioned. That's a loser, and the fact no one has been able to get a case before the Supreme Court in seventy years following that line of attack is the ultimate proof.
 
A joint claim exists when the weapon for which protection is sought as a militia arm also doubles as private protection.
However, the claim that the weapon for which protection is sought is not a "militia arm" fails utterly if such a term has not been formally defined by Congress. As all weapons are ultimately more useful than a sharp stick in real-world combat, a court is not in a position to determine the suitability of a given weapon for militia use if there is no law limiting them. Ironically, those weapons most suited to militia use are strictly regulated nigh unto oblivion, or even banned outright, by NFA and 922(o).

Having wholly neglected, where not actively suppressed, its assigned duty to arm & train & organize the militia, we are left with the second half of the 2nd Amendment: "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." This right cannot be suppressed just because Congress is not doing its part.

In Parker, Congress by proxy has practically prohibited citizens from owning any weapons for any use, militia purposes included. As such, they cannot enjoy the (at minimum) side benefits of armed self-defense. Plaintiffs have standing to demand allowance to exercise a right from which they may defend not only the nation but themselves as well. As Congress has failed to encourage a "well-regulated" exercise of that right - nay, actively and cruelly suppressed it by proxy - and has not given any indication of what arms should be owned, defendant is in no position to ask the case be tossed on grounds of having the wrong weapon. Lacking a legitimate definition of what "well-regulated" weapons are accepted, all weapons are acceptable by default. Plaintiff has standing.
 
So, there is nothing in the Constitution -- not about rights or powers -- concerning possession of weapons for personal defense, because this is an area subject solely to state law. It is why places like Connecticut have in their constitutions a right to arms specifically for self-defense. And of course some states have no such provision, and there is where we have problems.

Novel, but incorrect. While I'm not certain of the origin, I'm sure someone will pop in with some ideas...

A fundamental rule of statutory construction is when interpreting a law be it administrative code, statutory law, or constitutional law, "that the inclusion of one thing [expressed in the language of a law] necessarily means the exclusion of other things."

An example of this is the Parks rule, 36CFR 2.4; it outlaws weapons, traps and nets generally, then narrowly carves out small exceptions to this general prohibition. One of them is that local or state law enforcement -- in the actual performance of their official duties -- may carry. Because this narrow exception clearly states that any law enforcement officer of a local or state agency may carry in the performance of their duties, by the logic used by the courts an off duty officer is not accorded this exception.

The phrasing may be different but I've seen this expressed in many state and federal court decisions. Thus, by specifically enumerating in the respective Constitutional amendments for what purpose a citizen may bear arms, other reasons would be precluded, actually. In the example you provide,

"Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself
and the state."


Because this amendment specifies defense of self and state, other reasons to bear arms would not be protected (constitutionally speaking). This of course is reviewing ONLY this provision, irrespective of provisions elsewhere in that state's body of law, which in and of itself is inaccurate since you cannot really read any law in a vacuum, but must consider the other provisions of law ( the intent of the legislative body ). Nevertheless, the qualified rights are less broad, more specific and thus cover fewer citizens than the rights which are enumerated without qualification.

HTH
 
I would take issue with the idea that it falls to the states to regulate firearms in the least.

The existence of the 2nd Amendment nullifies the effect that the 10th would have, as it is the responsibility of the Federal government, specifically the executive branch, to enforce the laws of the Constitution. The 2nd Amendment is the responsibility of the Federal government to enforce because it is part of the Constitution. The power to regulate arms is not delegated to the states and certainly cannot be delegated to the District of Columbia, which isn't a state at all.

One may make the argument that because regulation of firearms can be (incorrectly) construed as a protective action, that it is the function of the state. However, doesn't the Supremacy Clause tell us otherwise?
 
Strategy?

Bring any case you want; but, please, for the benefit of the rest of us, don't be a child, and don't be a fool.

There is nothing in Miller which claims Congress has to do anything re the militia for the people to be secure in a structural right, the origin of which is in the existence of the Constitution, itself. The Constitution created Congress, and a right originating in constitutional structure is independent both of Congress and its acts.

But, for God's sake, man, we're putting a legal claim together, not engaging in an entertaining dialogue or academic debate. You guys are letting the Brady Bunch nickle and dime honest gun owners to death by advancing up front the most preposterous claims our side can make. Meanwhile, they make steady progress, grinding away and grinding away, until all of our rights are gone.

You don't need Congress to define anything about what constitutes militia arms when all anyone really needs to do is open his eyes. The "arm, equip, and discipline" provision exists to allow a uniformity of arms in service, so what are the standard small arms of the United States Army? Were M-16s used in Vietnam, or their equivalents today? Then maybe they should be high on our list; but, as a matter of strategy, why are you in any hurry to run before you learn how to walk? You don't have a precedent for the Colt Sporter yet; what makes you think that any court today, on no foundation at all, is going to allow you to have a machine gun?

The Parker complaint does mention long arms, but it does not specifically mention anything, nor does it allege that the long arms are wanted for anything other than private defense. Wrong, wrong, wrong! If the M16/M4 might be on the list, build the case around the Sporter, which then must be, and bring a joint claim. In the absence of any precedent, it's 100 percent a better choice. Why?

Militias control domestic violence, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions. With the exception of the last, these activities may be considered quasi-law-enforcement. And what kinds of weapons do cops carry? As a rule, they do not include anti-tank rocket launchers or area weapons such as machine guns or sawed off shotguns. After all, would you want the cops to enforce the laws against drug dealing by coming into your neighborhood and just shooting everyone in sight? The idea, as I always understood it, was for the cops to target the bad guy. Most certainly, I don't want them targeting me. I don't want them to have the power to engage in wanton violence. That being the case, what makes anyone think a judge is going to want to invest such power in me?

Does it make any sense to allege that I ought to have at my disposal more power generally to take life than a trained FBI agent? No judge is going to make that ruling; it defies common sense. So, if you are going to ask for that kind of power, tell me -- please! -- some specific reason why I or anyone else should let you have it. What is the public benefit?

The gun controllers have succeeded in setting up a screen, which ideally would weed out pernicious devices. It being juvenile to think that you will be allowed to have pernicious devices, the argument must be that the screen is too restrictive -- you're looking for a firearm, currently prohibited, which can be slipped through the screen. The first weapon you try to get through the screen should be one designed for selective targets, not selective fire. There are some absolutely beautiful precedents in this area which can back you up; but, you have to research them, and you have to start with the right foundation. Your attitude seems to be, "My rights, my rights" -- as you choose to determine what those rights are. The law does not work that way. The law relies on text and history. The cases we can use don't focus as such on what the weapons are but rather on how they are likely to be used, and that's true in every society, even Switzerland (where citizens are prohibited from owning some kinds of small arms but often are required by law to keep and maintain, e.g., fully operable anti-aircraft guns in their homes).

So, ask yourself, before you go to see the judge: Will he see me as a patriot defending liberty with a rifle or a gangster defending bootleg liquor with a chopper? If the latter, it really won't matter what you take into the courthouse for your exhibit -- the judge is going to look over his glasses at your justification under the Second Amendment and say, "Yeah, right" -- like he would believe you over his lying eyes.

Parker does reflect a better strategy in one respect: Its plaintiffs are honest citizens seeking relief from vicious crooks -- there is no prejudice against the appearance. But, my complaint about Parker remains (so far) unanswered: It does not plead a federal right and therefore does not belong in federal court. It has yet to be justified in terms of Miller and its progeny, which focus not on whether there be militias or Congressional regulation of same but whether the arm in question actually is possessed for use as a militia arm, or actually is possessed for the purpose of making effective an individual citizen's loyalty election. A mere claim of this is not enough. Any court of justice is going to want to know at some point just what you intend to do with the gun.

As far as I can tell, as of this writing, the strategy I have proposed here has yet to be seriously debated or debugged, let alone seriously presented to a court. Although I do happen to know the foundational Supreme Court opinions (because I looked them up), so I already know they exist, I openly challenge everyone reading this to name them for me. When you can tell me the names of the leading federal cases on structural constitutional rights, and correctly relate their substance to me, then you've proven I seriously must consider your objections (whatever they may be). Until then, I do have the right to ask just what is everyone's expertise? A lawyer would know that there is all the difference in the world between rules of construction as applied to administrative rather than constitutional law (he also quickly would conclude that your "standing" argument had no cold chance in hell of succeeding), so I assume you are not a lawyer.

What are you?
 
Mr. Crim:

It is hard to know where to begin.

This is no particular order:

1. Congress does not have the power to establish religion, yet the First Amendment forbids the establishment of religion by Congress. Why? Because the framers of the BOR didn't trust the government would remain within its authorized powers. Likewise, the Congress does not have the power to seize guns, but, the Second Amendment is there to prevent that from occurring.

2. The District of Columbia is under the direct and exclusive control of Congress. It is beyond debate that every law in D.C. is federal action. Anyone who argues otherwise is wasting electrons, in serious flat-earth territory.

3. The Second Amendment binds the federal government. Whatever it does, like the rest of the Bill of Rights, it limits federal action. It *might* limit state action as well, but that's not well-settled given the age of the non-incorporation precedent in the Second Amendment arena.

4. The "Militia" is merely a synonym for the body of the people capable of bearing arms. It is secured by securing the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

5. The states are forbidden from keeping troops in peacetime without consent of Congress. See art. I, sec. 10, cl. 3. Congress has also reserved for itself the power to arm the militia, to the exclusion of the states. So the Congress can give you a gun, or you can go get a gun yourself, the only creature unable to "arm the militia" is a state government. See art. I, sec. 8, that says exactly what the states can and cannot do with the "militia."

6. Whatever the Second Amendment does, it purports to secure a right. It is also a part of the U.S. Constitution. The Parker claim, whether you like it or not, whether it is correct or not, is raised under the U.S. Constitution and therefore belongs in federal court. Again, to deny this is to be in flat-earth territory.

I'm not often moved to write here, but your confidence is matched only by the bizareness of your claims. I'm not here to get into a flaming match with you, and I know there is no way to state this without sounding like a jerk, but FWIW, yes, I am a lawyer, and you don't really have a good grasp of some very basic concepts that go far beyond Parker and Second Amendment issues and relate to the basic structure of how our constitution and courts operate. Please, teach your kids something about which you know.
 
The power to regulate arms is not delegated to the states
Police powers, which include gun control powers, are not delegated to the US and are reserved to the States.

The District of Columbia is under the direct and exclusive control of Congress. It is beyond debate that every law in D.C. is federal action.
I don't see how it is beyond debate. A federal law is passed by federal government, and the DC gun laws are passed by local government.

the only creature unable to "arm the militia" is a state government
I seem to remember reading the Framers' saying that if the US does not arm the militia then the States may. How do you come up with State Militias that the States cannot arm? It doesn't seem to fit.

Whatever the Second Amendment does, it purports to secure a right. It is also a part of the U.S. Constitution. The Parker claim, whether you like it or not, whether it is correct or not, is raised under the U.S. Constitution and therefore belongs in federal court. Again, to deny this is to be in flat-earth territory.

Whatever the Second Amendment does, it purports to limit federal government, not to secure a personal right against infringement by other governments.

If Parker lived in a State, then the US would have no jusridiction over the matter, so things don't belong in federal court just because someone tries to use the USBOR as their defense.
 
Gun control can only be a police power if it provides for the public welfare, order, and the people's security. Gun control cannot be suggested to do any of these things beyond a certain point.

Washington DC is living proof that overzealous measures of gun control actually serve to create a more dangerous environment for the public. So do the gun control measures of Australia and the UK. So suggesting that gun control is a police power must be checked by an understanding of what happens when you get carried away with it. DC happens.

So gun control can only be a police power to the extent that said police power serves the people's security, which in DC, it most certainly does not and demonstrably does not in many other places.

If police powers are to provide for the public security, only some small gun control measures apply, gun bans do not in any way.

And even if something is suggested to be a police power, should we discard the idea that the Constitution is the law of the land, and holds supremacy over state and local governments?

Should we ignore that since the right to bear arms is clearly written into the constitution, that it is under the jurisdiction of Federal Government?
 
by Robert Crim:
Furthermore, there is a difference between militia and military arms -- military arms would be any arms (up to atomic bombs) useful in a military capacity, whereas militia arms are those appropriate for use by the militia (a body organized to suppress insurrections and repel invasions). Militia arms appropriate to civilian use traditionally include small arms (as opposed to cannons or the like, which at one time the States kept in state armories).
Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 authorizes Congress to issue Letters of Marque. Privately-owned warships or armed merchant vessels do not fit neatly into this narrow and highly structured model of "militia" arms.

I also take exception to the line of thought that holds that the US has a responsibility to supply militia arms. "The Congress shall have Power To... provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia." Congress could "provide for" the militia in many ways, including identifying appropriate arms to be supplied by the states or the people. Even this Constitutional provision is a permissive power rather than an exclusive mandate. If Congress fails to "provide for" the militia, there is no prohibition against the states making the necessary provisions.
 
crim?
My expertise is an education in excess of tenth grade, (from High school in 1967, before anyone dreamed of "the living constitution) I understand the english language. There are 27 words in the second amendment. All of them have very simple meanings. And taken together they are very easy to understand.
I personally hope that Judge Silberman continues to laugh at your "living constitution", and your "translations", and "interpretations" of the original intent of the founders.
It is my understanding that they had just fought and won a war with a tyrant, and this law was to guarantee their children could do it too, if needed.

I would like to ask again. robert crim????

What your opinion on what firearms you should be able to "keep and bear"? And, who else can? In consideration of the "whole constitution" of course.
 
Should we ignore that since the right to bear arms is clearly written into the constitution, that it is under the jurisdiction of Federal Government?
The Second Amendment was not intended to put the RKBA under jurisdiction of federal government.
 
Can "common use" really be used that subjectively?
How commonly were printing presses owned in the 18th century? May I own one now? How about a laser printer or fax machine?

The Framers could not possibly have envisioned such powerful devices.

Some questions were asked above regarding the nature of the right of self defense vis' a vis' the 2A; what happens when the fed.gov fails to support militias; and if the the 2A offers protection against the states as well as the feds. These passages will serve to answer them...

Before I start, someone asked if the 2A was incorporated by the 14A. Senator Jacob, who drafted it, certainly thought so, as one of his main beefs was that southerners were disarming the newly freed slaves: http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Halbrook1.htm

When the Fourteenth Amendment was introduced in the Senate, Senator Jacob Howard proposed it and explained its meaning. He stated explicitly that the amendment would protect from state depravation the personal rights in the Bill of Rights, and he explicitly went on to quote the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

That the 2A hasn't been incorporated shows the USSC in a very bad light, just as do its foolish rulings in Scot, Pressey, Miller, and Roe.

Back on track:

William Blacksone in his "Commentaries on the Law of England, (1765).

Blackstone, citing case after case of English Common Law, related that self defense is an "absolute right" and later, that the right to arms is an "auxiliary" to that right (Vol.1, at 144).

St. George Tucker ("The American Blackstone) wrote:

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty .... The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible.

William W. Rawle, A View of the Constitution 125 (2d ed. 1829)

"In the Second Article, it is declared that a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state: a proposition from which few will dissent. Although in actual war, the services of regular troops are confessedly more valuable, yet ... the militia form the palladium of the country .... The corollary from the first position is, that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. THE PROHIBITION IS GENERAL. NO clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give Congress a right to DISARM THE PEOPLE." Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretence by a state legislature. But, if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both."

Tench Coxe:

"The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the
people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of an American...The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."?

Thomas Cooley in General Principles of Constitutional Law, mid 19th century.

"Further, ?The right is general. It may be supposed from the phraseology of this provision that the right to keep and bear arms was only guaranteed to the militia; but this would be an interpretation not warranted by the intent. The militia, as has been explained elsewhere, consists of those persons who, under the law, are liable to the performance of military duty, and are officered and enrolled for service when called upon...If the right were limited to those enrolled, the purpose of the guarantee might be defeated altogether by the action or the neglect to act of the government it was meant to hold in check. The meaning of the provision undoubtedly is, that the people, from whom the militia must be taken, shall have the right to keep and bear arms, and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose. But this enables the government to have a well regulated militia; for to bear arms implies something more than mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them in a way that makes those who keep them ready for their efficient use; in other words, it implies the right to meet in voluntary discipline in arms, observing in so doing the laws of public order."

Noah Webster in Leading Principles of the Federal
Constitution, Philadelphia,? 1787:

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense raised in the United States..."

Rick
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top