OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
Member
AR 10 358 WINCHESTER VS LEVER ACTION 358 WINCHESTER
WHICH ONE YOU YOU HAVE, AS PRICE WISE ABOUT THE SAME
WHICH ONE YOU YOU HAVE, AS PRICE WISE ABOUT THE SAME
AR 10 VS LEVER GUNS BOTH IN 358 WINCHESTER
- Thread starter OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
- Start date
Forgetting nostalgia, I'd prefer an AR10 if the weight can be kept down. The new Ruger version of the AR10 is about where I'd like to be. They are about 7 1/4 lbs, which is pretty close to what most lever guns weigh. Some of the AR-10's are going to be 10 lbs+ with optics. That is more than I want to carry around while hunting.
It doesn't add anything. In fact, the 308 outperforms it even on bigger game. Most people only think of 308 with 150 gr bullets. But 180 gr factory loads are out there, and it performs quite well with 200 gr handloads. With those heavier bullets it will penetrate deeper on large game than 358. A dime is thicker than the difference between .358 and .308 so it doesn't make a hole significantly larger.
It doesn't add anything. In fact, the 308 outperforms it even on bigger game. Most people only think of 308 with 150 gr bullets. But 180 gr factory loads are out there, and it performs quite well with 200 gr handloads. With those heavier bullets it will penetrate deeper on large game than 358. A dime is thicker than the difference between .358 and .308 so it doesn't make a hole significantly larger.
someguy2800
Member
A dump truck is only a couple feet wider than a corvette.
Chuck R.
Member
Does bullet construction play no freakin role in whatever terminal ballistic world you live in?
True a dime is thicker, than the delta of .308 and .358, but the frontal diameter of the .358" is 35% Wider
The difference is SD, which you seem to worship for some reason is:
.308 220 Grain SD: .331
.358 225 Grain SD: .251
a delta of .08!!
So for some reason in your world:
.5" difference in diameter doesn't matter
35% difference in frontal area doesn't matter
Energy doesn't matter (cause the .358W tops the .308W past 200yds, the range in which most critters get shot)
But .08 in sectional density does?
Even though depending on the bullet construction they're both going through the animal and into the dirt?
Why would anyone worried about penetration be stuck in the 70s with cup and core bullets?
Some more modern thinking on the subject:
Is Sectional Density A Good Measure Of A Bullet's Penetration Potential?
Despite common wisdom, there are some major nuances to the idea sectional density predicts how deep a bullet penetrates.
gundigest.com
What You've Been Told About a Bullet's Sectional Density and Penetration Is Wrong
If, like many shooters, you believe the sectional density on an unfired bullet is a good indicator of penetration, then you need to read this.
www.fieldandstream.com
IS SECTIONAL DENSITY DEAD? - Free Online Library
Free Online Library: IS SECTIONAL DENSITY DEAD? by "Petersen's Rifle Shooter"; Sports, sporting goods and toys industry Sport, sporting goods and toys industry Density Specific gravity
www.thefreelibrary.com
Sectional Density of Bullets — What You Need to Know « Daily Bulletin
by Sierra Bullets Ballistic Technician Paul Box All of us who have been in reloading and shooting for any period of time have read how sectional density has been regarded as a bullet’s ability to penetrate.
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Just to clarify, it's definitely not that i think the 358's bigger heavier bullets don't bring something to the table they definitely do.
It's just that there really isn't a game animal in North America where I'd feel the need for more than a 308 that I wouldn't want more than the 358 to the table.
It's just that there really isn't a game animal in North America where I'd feel the need for more than a 308 that I wouldn't want more than the 358 to the table.
WestKentucky
Member
I’m living in the new world with an old soul. As much as I love the look and feel of a Winchester or Marlin trapper carbine, I just can’t find any reason to prefer the lever action. Levers are not known for extreme accuracy, ar platform rifles are. Levers are six to eight rounds at best with long tube mags. Most guns have short tube mags and less capacity. Ars just take magazines. Find a 20 or 30 rounder and slap it in. Reload… again an AR just takes a new mag. Unload… pull the mag and pogo the action on an AR where with levers you work the lever til the gun runs dry hoping you can catch each round or be extra cautious to aim the ejection port at the floorboard of the pickup (don’t act like your not guilty too) and work it til it’s empty. Optic? That’s AR platform hands down all day every day and twice on days that end in Y. As boring as an AR is, it’s the clear winner here, with a few notable bullet points.
1. A Henry long ranger would be a perfect platform for that round.
2. Black guns have no character like steel and walnut.
3. Everybody has ARs and it’s nice to be different.
4. They are all gonna be heavy, but some ARs can also be pokey.
5. If a safety means anything to you then the lever is either not equipped, or is by definition an abomination.
6. The tomahawk steaks are gonna taste the same when shot by either, so just do it how you want to.
1. A Henry long ranger would be a perfect platform for that round.
2. Black guns have no character like steel and walnut.
3. Everybody has ARs and it’s nice to be different.
4. They are all gonna be heavy, but some ARs can also be pokey.
5. If a safety means anything to you then the lever is either not equipped, or is by definition an abomination.
6. The tomahawk steaks are gonna taste the same when shot by either, so just do it how you want to.
OP
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OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
Member
I just figured that for those folks living in states where AR'S are not welcome would like a choice.
Fortunately I do not live in a state like that. I live in the free state of Alabama. Some even call us rednecks.
But being originally from Oklahoma, I still identify as an OKIE
Fortunately I do not live in a state like that. I live in the free state of Alabama. Some even call us rednecks.
But being originally from Oklahoma, I still identify as an OKIE
KansasTrapper77
Member
I agree it really depends. Hunting hogs from a blind? AR. Hunting booner bucks in the dark timber? Lever.
someguy2800
Member
If I could get a Ruger SFAR or POF Rogue in 358 Win I wouldn’t be able to get my wallet out fast enough. I have a lathe and have been making some barrels recently and I’ve given serious consideration to just buying one of those 2 in 308 and harvest the barrel extension and make my own.
I have absolutely 0 interest in AR10’s. Just too big and bulky and the handling is all wrong to me.
I have a custom AR15 in 358 Yeti, which is basically a 358 win shortened to fit in an AR15. Shoots a 180 hot core at 2500 fps from a 16” barrel. I have done 2600 fps but that is pushing the brass pretty hard. It doesn’t kill anything deader than a 308 would, but it leaves a big blood trail from both entrance and exit, which to me is the advantage of large bore flat point bullets. Rather than making a pencil size entrance, it makes a 1” entrance. Dumps energy fast.
I have absolutely 0 interest in AR10’s. Just too big and bulky and the handling is all wrong to me.
I have a custom AR15 in 358 Yeti, which is basically a 358 win shortened to fit in an AR15. Shoots a 180 hot core at 2500 fps from a 16” barrel. I have done 2600 fps but that is pushing the brass pretty hard. It doesn’t kill anything deader than a 308 would, but it leaves a big blood trail from both entrance and exit, which to me is the advantage of large bore flat point bullets. Rather than making a pencil size entrance, it makes a 1” entrance. Dumps energy fast.
someguy2800
Member
In this case I’m pretty sure we are talking about a browning BLR vs an AR10. I wouldn’t take any bets on the AR10 being more accurate than the BLR
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OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
Member
YEAH OR AN OLDER SAVAGE MODEL 99 OR ANY OTHER LEVER IN 358 Winchester, but especially the Browning. That gun is basicly the semi auto with a lever, same chamber and barrel, with a rack and pinon lever instead of the semi auto
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OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
Member
some states do not like AR's of any type. In those places I would think the lever would be a viable option, whether in 30-06. 270, 308, or 358. Even saw a couple of Browning BLR'S converted to 35 Whelen
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OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
Member
and if someone wanted one in 7x57 mauser, or 8x57 mauser, think that could be done too. Could even do one in 6.5 Swede
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OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
Member
And truth is in Europe that might have already been done
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OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
Member
After all FN was also the home of Browning for a lot of years
Chuck R.
Member
Personally I'd go lever..
The AR10 may be more accurate at longer distances, but honestly IF longer distances were on the menu I'd not chose the .358Win in either platform. The BLR isn't your typical lever when it comes to accuracy.
I love AR15s currently have 6 of them, build my own as a hobby, but I'd still prefer the lever for the kind of hunting I'd do with a .358Win.
One of the issues the OP is going to have is finding a .358 Lever.. I know I tried. The 99s in .358W are rare and highly coveted ($$). The BLRs are still produced, but again when in .358Win they go for more. A quick search of GB for rifles in.358 Winchester will give an idea of what they're going for:
and there's even a .358 AR10 in the search results.
The AR10 may be more accurate at longer distances, but honestly IF longer distances were on the menu I'd not chose the .358Win in either platform. The BLR isn't your typical lever when it comes to accuracy.
I love AR15s currently have 6 of them, build my own as a hobby, but I'd still prefer the lever for the kind of hunting I'd do with a .358Win.
One of the issues the OP is going to have is finding a .358 Lever.. I know I tried. The 99s in .358W are rare and highly coveted ($$). The BLRs are still produced, but again when in .358Win they go for more. A quick search of GB for rifles in.358 Winchester will give an idea of what they're going for:
Rifles for Sale - Buy Rifles at GunBroker.com
Find rifles for sale at GunBroker.com, the world's largest gun auction site. Get the rifles you want today from a trusted online source on GunBroker.com
www.gunbroker.com
and there's even a .358 AR10 in the search results.
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I know it's a small sample size but my AR10 is way more accurate than my BLR ever was.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The .30cal Kool Aid is stronger than ever. It's somehow magically better than anything smaller but also magically better than anything bigger. I might note that this is the same person that thinks the .30-30 is more effective than the .45-70.
My problem with a .358 lever is that I hate the BLR. AR10's are usually way too heavy with little advantage for hunting but I have to agree that a big bore Ruger SFAR would be mighty interesting.
As far as the "they weigh the same" argument, my Winchester 94 Big Bore .375 is 6lbs 4oz.
My problem with a .358 lever is that I hate the BLR. AR10's are usually way too heavy with little advantage for hunting but I have to agree that a big bore Ruger SFAR would be mighty interesting.
As far as the "they weigh the same" argument, my Winchester 94 Big Bore .375 is 6lbs 4oz.
someguy2800
Member
Could certainly go either way. The nice thing about an AR is if it doesn’t shoot well you can just throw another barrel on. If your BLR doesn’t shoot well it’s going to be a lot more difficult to address it.
someguy2800
Member
A 358 win AR would be an AR10, not an AR15. If someone wanted an AR15 then they would need to do 358 Yeti or 358 WSSM
Chuck R.
Member
RGR, my bad..
ECVMatt
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2004
- Messages
- 2,873
Please excuse the cool shades...but I would go for a levergun in .358. I do like my AR platform rifles, but there is nothing like a good levergun to make a day in the woods magical.
Last weekend my hunting partner and I decided to slow things down, put away the scoped mountain rifles and hunt the thick woods of the Sierras with lever action .30/30's. We still got our buck, not as big as some in the past, but what a great experience. I used my Marlin/Glenfield 30GT. It balances perfect in the hand, is adequately powerful, and felt like a zephyr in the woods. You could get close to that feeling with a BLR or a 99 if you can find one. I Marlin 336 in .35 Rem is a good compromise.
Last weekend my hunting partner and I decided to slow things down, put away the scoped mountain rifles and hunt the thick woods of the Sierras with lever action .30/30's. We still got our buck, not as big as some in the past, but what a great experience. I used my Marlin/Glenfield 30GT. It balances perfect in the hand, is adequately powerful, and felt like a zephyr in the woods. You could get close to that feeling with a BLR or a 99 if you can find one. I Marlin 336 in .35 Rem is a good compromise.
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OLDE RETIRED COASTIE
Member
I shoot left handed, and always was and is more comfortable with any kind of lever gun. I have a Henry Golden Boy, 22, a Henry all weather with the loading gate 45-70 , and a Rossi, 357/38.
I would still like a Rossi, 454 casull, a Chiappa 1886, see what happens after that
I would still like a Rossi, 454 casull, a Chiappa 1886, see what happens after that
