Ar-15 as handy as a shotgun?

[holdencm9]

What sounds scarier? Pumping a shotgun or AR charging handle?

Just kidding.

I think they could both be used to devastating effect on any intruder(s) who might come into your home wanting to do you harm. I really think it comes down to what you have trained with, and what you think you could grab and use at night after just being woken from a deep sleep and you are still groggy.

I'd say the AR might be better for clearing your house, and the shotgun is better for hiding behind the bed and pointing at the door while on the phone with 911. Hence, I keep my Mossberg 500 loaded and ready to go. The AR sits in its case in another corner of the room, not loaded but magazines nearby.

 

[Cosmoline]

One in each hand!

Seriously, the up-front cost strongly favors the shotgun. But the AR hits real hard at close range and is more than enough for the purpose. And once you have it, it's very economical to practice a lot with it. 5.56 rounds cost much less than 12 ga self defense shells.

In the end it comes down to preference and which you'll be able to train more with.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I would also be worried about jams with an AR.

Or any semiauto (handguns and shotguns included). Or pumps (short-stroking). Or revolvers (bullet jump or short-stroking).

Jams are parties--everyone is invited.

What sounds scarier? Pumping a shotgun or AR charging handle?

Neither action is going to clear a double-feed jam for either firearm.

 

[armysniper]

Here is my choice. AR15. I spent 5 years in the army as an infantryman. Have shot literally 10s of thousands of rounds, probably more. Ive slept with it, jumped up in the middle of the night with it from a dead sleep to engage enemy advancing on our base with seconds. Time carrying and using an m-4 / m16 thousands of hours.

So I would have to say that an AR is very handy for me to move around and shoot than a shotgun. To me a shotgun is a clumsy retarded feeling weapon. If I had used a shotgun as my primary battle rifle in my military career, I may have felt different about it.

 

[atomd]

The ergonomics are completely different. And then add the noise and blast factor and there is a reason the 12ga shotgun occupies the premier place for long guns outside of the military.

I'm sure that has nothing at all to do with the fact you can get a 12 gauge at Walmart for $185 and an entry level AR costs 4 times that. Just because it's the most popular doesn't mean it's the best. Is the top 40 music chart always filled with the greatest musicians of our time?

That being said....I don't think most people even consider noise or blast factor. We're talking about it because we are the minority of people who are on a firearms-related forum. If you offered every single person in this country an AR15 in n even exchange for their 12 gauge home defense shotgun....you would need a heck of a big warehouse to store all those shotguns in.

I think both are good at what they do....and neither is best for absolutely everyone. Isn't it nice to have choices?

 

[SabbathWolf]

My personal choice is "neither" the AR15 nor the 870 you linked to either.

Your shotgun example comes in at 38 1/2" over all length.
The AR is even longer.
Barrel length alone cannot be your deciding factor. You simply "must" look at the OAL as well at the end of the day.

My 7.62x39 AK, including the muzzle brake comes in @ just under 37" total.
So both the shotgun and the AR15 as well come in somewhere between my AK and my bolt rifle.
And....just in passing...measuring an M4 for example with the butt stock "collapsed" is actually cheating.
You cannot shoulder and fire the weapon effectively from that mode unless you are a midget.

My own "personal" choice is my 9mm Cx4 with 30 round mags for HD.
It is outstanding in small rooms and tight hallways compared to anything I own other than a pistol.
Second choice would still be my AK over a shotgun.

My "Black Gun" collection (so to speak) is based on long-range, intermediate range, close range...and then a back-up handgun to support any of the others.
I don't own a "lot" of guns. But the few I do have, I try to pick very wisely with quality, and a very specific purpose and intent in mind.

 

[B!ngo]

Fatcat, the thing is, the shotgun makes all those little holes. The rifle round has enough velocity to actually cause a very wide wound tract which is stretched far beyond the .223 caliber. This picture illustrates how a .223 works when it hits a target. Yes, you get one hole instead of 9, but it's a much bigger hole, and you have much faster follow-up shots with a .223 than you do with a 12-gauge.

Mgmorden, at 10 feet (self defense ranges), you're likely to get maybe a 2-4" pattern, depending on specific load. It isn't the cone of death you think it to be. You're also hunting with birdshot, which holds lots of pellets and patterns throughout. With 00-buck, probably the most popular self defense shell, you have 9 pellets. If the pattern is such that you'll hit within a cone, you're only going to hit with one or less pellets.

For HD, I do believe a rifle is better than a shotgun. The disadvantages of a rifle are cost, and where you can practice with them. Personaly preference or "what I'm used to" aside, that's pretty much it.

I agree with the post (above). To add, seems like you can be a bit less precise with a shotgun than an AR or pistol carbine. The AR or pistol carbine can be more readily reloaded but if you need to do that, you're in a firefight and that's a whole different thing. In terms of ease of aiming/swinging the barrel it's a wash.

To me, it's either a shotgun or a handgun. The handgun is far more maneuverable and is likely my choice, though there is not doubt that the shotgun is more effective and more likely to score a hit. I own and AR and a pistol carbine but needing to use two hands, without the advantage of more leeway in accuracy just doesn't seem like a good trade. Hmmm, maybe I need to purchase a scattergun after all. Just don't want to train with it, since I otherwise wouldn't use it much.

One more thing, and I'm unclear on the answer. For the sake of maintaining situational awareness as well as ones long-term health, which of the four is the loudest and is likely to cause the shooter the most short- and long-term auditory damage: a 9mm handgun?; a 16" AR?; a 9mm carbine?; a 20" 12 gauge?
B

 

[Samari Jack]

This would be my choice from Kel-tec. Short, I shoot a long gun left-handed so ejection is a concern. Soft-nose or frangible ammo.

I've been wanting one since they came out. Kind of pricey though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNoUt3aVrus

 

[scythefwd]

ITs more than just barrel length that makes a gun "handy". It's the ergos of it, it's the balance of it.

The AR has great ergos, as long as you don't have to snap to the shoulder... any straight stocked rifle or shotgun will have an advantage.

Oh, and you don't "aim" shotguns, you point them. Many don't have the second device to call it aiming (rear sight).

I don't know if the 30 rnd mag makes the gun more or less maneuverable honestly. It looses its swing, but might actually be faster to redirect.. definitely different feel from a shotgun though.

If you handle it well, use it.. who cares what experts on the net say.

 

[SabbathWolf]

I agree with the post (above). To add, seems like you can be a bit less precise with a shotgun than an AR or pistol carbine. The AR or pistol carbine can be more readily reloaded but if you need to do that, you're in a firefight and that's a whole different thing. In terms of ease of aiming/swinging the barrel it's a wash.

To me, it's either a shotgun or a handgun. The handgun is far more maneuverable and is likely my choice, though there is not doubt that the shotgun is more effective and more likely to score a hit. I own and AR and a pistol carbine but needing to use two hands, without the advantage of more leeway in accuracy just doesn't seem like a good trade. Hmmm, maybe I need to purchase a scattergun after all. Just don't want to train with it, since I otherwise wouldn't use it much.

One more thing, and I'm unclear on the answer. For the sake of maintaining situational awareness as well as ones long-term health, which of the four is the loudest and is likely to cause the shooter the most short- and long-term auditory damage: a 9mm handgun?; a 16" AR?; a 9mm carbine?; a 20" 12 gauge?
B

No offense, but some of you guys are crackin' me up with this "you don't have to aim a shotgun...or it spreads at close range" stuff.
Nothing could be farther from the truth!

 

[Warp]

Oh, and you don't "aim" shotguns, you point them. Many don't have the second device to call it aiming (rear sight).

Even if it only has a bead, you still ought to be aiming. The top of the barrel/receiver serves this purpose.

But since I have tritium ghost rings on mine, it definitely qualifies as aiming, for me.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

A rifle is a good defensive weapon but the wound that buckshot makes at very close range is devastating. I think that is a main reason (as well as reliability/ease of use) why a scatter gun is recommended for HD use.

Times have changed.

I went from a 12 gauge pump, to a 12 gauge semi to finally an AK 74 loaded with Hornady V-Max. 5.45 x 39 V-Max will penetrate far less walls then a shotgun loaded with buckshot and since I live in a neighborhood, I have to be mindful about them regarding overpenetration.

 

[atomd]

No offense, but some of you guys are crackin' me up with this "you don't have to aim a shotgun...or it spreads at close range" stuff.
Nothing could be farther from the truth!

No kidding. It's not like the movies where you shoot one shot and it fills the room with shot, destroying everything in sight. Go and measure your bedroom..then shoot a piece of cardboard at that same distance with your hd shell. It's not going to spread much at all. People really confuse the whole pointing versus aiming thing when it comes to shotguns too. They think pointing means basically pointing the barrel in the general direction you want and bang, you hit your target.....no need to "aim" because it's a "scattergun".

 

[SabbathWolf]

No kidding. It's not like the movies where you shoot one shot and it fills the room with shot, destroying everything in sight. Go and measure your bedroom..then shoot a piece of cardboard at that same distance with your hd shell. It's not going to spread much at all. People really confuse the whole pointing versus aiming thing when it comes to shotguns too. They think pointing means basically pointing the barrel in the general direction you want and bang, you hit your target.....no need to "aim" because it's a "scattergun".

Exactly.
Too much TV and movies...and not enough "hand-on" around here.

 

[wdyasq]

What an interesting conversation.

My personal choice on home defense shotgun fodder is 'low brass bird shot'. At "home defense ranges" it is going to cut large holes. It is not going to have a problem with over-penetration.

If I ever do need a 'home defense gun', I will pick the nearest one to me. I am very comfortable with one of my large frame S&W revolvers, my 1911 in one of several calibers or a rifle or shotgun. I'll think about what I MIGHT have used if survive the incident/adventure.

This is somewhat like the first rule of a gun fight, "Have a Gun". It would be preferable we fight with good boots on, a vest full of spare magazines and flashlights, our favorite gun and good aiming system and out best shooting buddy backing us up (or a SEAL team - 'Boys, he in there ,,, there may be more than one!)

Odds are if confronted, I'll be nude (I sleep that way), I'll have a wheel gun in my hand (there is one on the night stand) and be trying to figure out, "WHAT the 'F' is going on!"

Ron

Ron

 

[scythefwd]

Warp.. you are pointing if you are using the rail. You can point accurately enough, but you aren't aiming by any stretch of the imagination. There isn't any pin point precision involved (where aiming allows for that level of precision).

Would you consider it "aiming" if your handgun only had a bead and you were just looking down the slide? It'd be called point shooting for a reason.

Secondly, if you are using that shotgun right, you don't necessarily see the front bead. Take the bead off a competent shotgunner's shotgun and he'd still bust clays more often then not..


Sabbothwolf.. I too think the cx4 is just about perfect for that role, or any bullpup gun out there.. don't think it's as fast to the shoulder as a straight stock.. but good enough, plenty of power, good and short...

 

[Warp]

Warp.. you are pointing if you are using the rail. You can point accurately enough, but you aren't aiming by any stretch of the imagination. There isn't any pin point precision involved (where aiming allows for that level of precision).

Not aiming by any stretch of the imagination? I'm pretty sure putting slugs onto a pie plate at 50 yards constitutes aiming rather than merely pointing pointing.

Would you consider it "aiming" if your handgun only had a bead and you were just looking down the slide? It'd be called point shooting for a reason.

If I could hit man size targets at 50 yards then hell yes I would consider it aiming.

You seem to lack the experience necessary to adequately contribute to this conversation

 

[SabbathWolf]

Not aiming by any stretch of the imagination? I'm pretty sure putting slugs onto a pie plate at 50 yards constitutes aiming rather than merely pointing pointing.



If I could hit man size targets at 50 yards then hell yes I would consider it aiming.

You seem to lack the experience necessary to adequately contribute to this conversation

Quite frankly, I agree with ya here Warp on the aiming part.
I've "aimed" plenty of shotguns over the years...and on purpose too.
lol...

 

[SabbathWolf]

Sabbothwolf.. I too think the cx4 is just about perfect for that role, or any bullpup gun out there.. don't think it's as fast to the shoulder as a straight stock.. but good enough, plenty of power, good and short...

The shouldering speed I think is really just what you personally are used to I suppose. I mean, I'm used to these kinds of stocks along with pistol grip types like an M4 just from being in the army for so long.
It's the "straight" stocks that "I" find slow and weird.
But that's not the case for everybody either way I suppose.

The Cx4 is a bad *ss lil mamma jamma though. I couldn't be more pleased with it.

 

[scythefwd]

warp.. I can do that without anything on top of my barrels.. it's still pointing. It's relatively accurate.. but by no stretch of the imagination anywhere near what you can do with proper sights and aiming. I can do the same thing with just about every handgun I own at 20y.. it isnt aiming though. Hell, I keep it on a pie plate at 80 with slugs and just a bead.. but... it isn't precise. I suspect we actually are having more of a disagreement on semantics(connotation, not denotation) than principle.

I do think it's funny that you presume to have any clue as to my experience level based on a couple of comments though..

 

[Warp]

warp.. I can do that without anything on top of my barrels.. it's still pointing. It's relatively accurate.. but by no stretch of the imagination anywhere near what you can do with proper sights and aiming. I can do the same thing with just about every handgun I own at 20y.. it isnt aiming though. Hell, I keep it on a pie plate at 80 with slugs and just a bead.. but... it isn't precise. I suspect we actually are having more of a disagreement on semantics(connotation, not denotation) than principle.

I do think it's funny that you presume to have any clue as to my experience level based on a couple of comments though..

How is hitting a pie plate at 80 yards not aiming??

 

[scythefwd]

not if I'm not using sights to do it.

A bead is a reference, just like sights, but you need 2 objects in order to aim (3 actually, two fixed to the rifle, one in the same plane or line).

you see, its all about geometry.. between any two points (points are 2 dimensional), there is exactly 1 line. If I don't have two fixed points in relation to my barrel, I can be off... that's why a bead isn't aiming.. its a referenced point fixed to a barrel, one point... with any infinite number of sighting lines through it.

Same thing with dusting a 4" clay at 50y.. its not aiming.. I'll say it again, you can't aim without sights.. you can point accurately enough though. Take the bead off my shotgun.. and I'm still going to hit, but I might not hit exactly where I want it (I do require a bead for 80y.. not at 40-50 though and a 8" pie plate). If I have 2 beads.. then it's aiming, but not all shotguns have that intermediate bead.

A bead is no different than using a pointsight.

AT 30 yards, I just mount and shoot.. I can tell you generally where it's going to hit.. within a deers vitals which is about 6".. and thats not even looking at the end of the barrel... I don't even see it.. all I see is deer hide.

I still suggest you take all sights off a shotgun and put someone who knows that shotgun behind it and watch em shoot clays. Olympic level shooter will still run a clean round as often as not.. with nothing but a mount and cheek weld.. no sights required.

 

[Skribs]

The beretta is a pistol-caliber carbine, which means you're getting pistol performance with the stability of a stock, as opposed to rifle or shotgun performance. It's like having a martial art's match where the AR is Jet Li, the shotgun is Jason Statham, and the PCC is David Spade.

Warp, you can call it "pointing" or "aiming", but the fact is you're going to be doing the same thing with an AR as you do with a shotgun at a distance of 10 feet. Regardless of what you're calling it, you're going to have to be just as precise with both.

Wdyasg, you do not seem to have a warrior mindset. Instead of "I'll just use whatever is near me with whatever is in it," you should have a gun in mind, place it where it will most likely be the one near you, and load it with ammunition you want to use for self defense (even if it's just WWB JHPs).
Also, birdshot (unless you're talking BB or higher, which is still on the very low end of penetration) doesn't penetrate enough to reliably cause damage to the vitals, unless you hit a skinny attacker striaght on. You're left with a large, shallow hole, that an attacker in a nutso mindset can ignore and still tear into you with whatever he has. With a defensive shotgun, you definitely want something in the range of BB-slugs*, with buckshot being preferred.
*All birdshot is on the low end of penetration, and unless you have a very good reason, you shouldn't look at anything but buckshot.

I'm not trying to be rude, here, but anyone who thinks "you should use a [pistol-caliber carbine/birdshot] for HD so it won't go through walls" really needs to learn about ballistics inside the home and body and defensive bullet design.

 

[Warp]

Warp, you can call it "pointing" or "aiming", but the fact is you're going to be doing the same thing with an AR as you do with a shotgun at a distance of 10 feet. Regardless of what you're calling it, you're going to have to be just as precise with both.

Exactly.

 

[scythefwd]

Skribs.. that PCC is going to be more than enough in most homes penetration wise. I doubt most people even have 20y stretches they can shoot in their homes. 9mm will definitely have enough penetration to do a through and through... even if it doesnt, that cx4 can put em on target at that distance about as fast as you can shoot. And you're actually gaining a slight velocity increase from the longer barrel. It ain't rifle level, but it's better than +p. Honestly I'd love a mec tech ccu in 460 rowland.. can't argue 900+ ft lbs of energy.. It'll go through humans, walls, car doors...

So we, as a community, can get pedantic about magazines and clips but not aiming vs. pointing?