AR-15 Long Range Questions

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The only thing I have against PSA is that their premium line is only slightly less expensive than Colt, and it's not fully milspec. I would rather pay 50 bucks more for the 6920 and get a bolt that's been fully inspected and a carrier key with a milspec gasket. Not to mention a barrel that's been fully inspected as well.
I understand that. But on the low end, I think they're a great value. And the low end stuff isn't going to win awards, get you cool points but will get you good cheap parts that work for good for close range which is fine for home defense.
 
This. You do not want to fire a braked .223 indoors without hearing protection. You will be instantaneously rendered blind and deaf.
you will still feel a lot better then the guy you shooting at. :evil:
also in the heat of the moment with maybe your life on the line you will feel no pain till a few hours later. only practicing in a room will the blast bother you
 
Varminterror, are we talking about Hornady's heat resistant ballistic tips? I remember when those came out and at the time I got the distinct impression there was some pretty serious smoke being blown up my nether regions.

I wouldn't say there was any smoke being blown up anyone's backside about them - the technology is truthful, and the results are real. The over hype from the marketing campaign was pretty ridiculous, as those results, real as they are, are small, and only applicable for a very narrow subset of shooters.

There was too much hype about it, as it doesn't revolutionize anything - it just makes the bullets more stable for longer range shooting. Not many folks are winning matches with ballistic tip bullets anyway, so it's kind of moot, but for LR and ELR hunters, the heat tolerant tips can make a bit of a difference. Most guys don't shoot well enough to tell the difference, nor shoot far enough to realize the advantage, however. If a guy is calling 600yrds "long range," then they'll never see any difference between the two. As I mentioned above with the 75 ELD-M compared to the same bullet with a non-heat tolerate tip, the 75 A-max, even out to 1000yrds I barely notice the difference, as I can't push hard enough with the 223/5.56 case to reach far enough where it matters.

What makes the ELD bullets from hornady so great - which is the same thing which always made the A-max's great - is the fact they're that much cheaper than other match grade bullets. They're not as accurate, never have been, as the Berger's, but they're a lot cheaper, so for practice, I can shoot a lot more Hornady's for the same cost than I can Bergers. I can get the 75 ELDM for 19-20c per bullet instead of 30+ for the 77 Sierra Matchking or the 80grn Berger VLD. I can get the 208 ELD 30cal for 35c per instead of 55 per with the 210 Berger... They aren't quite as accurate, but for practice loads, it's close enough I can work up a usable databook and save a lot of money.

The A-max was a great bullet before, the ELD's are a better bullet now.
 
you will still feel a lot better then the guy you shooting at. :evil:
also in the heat of the moment with maybe your life on the line you will feel no pain till a few hours later. only practicing in a room will the blast bother you

True enough, but I would rather survive with my eardrums intact. Letting off a few rounds of .223 from a braked carbine in a hallway, there is a very real danger of blowing an eardrum or two. In which case you had better hope that those first few rounds ended the fight because with a busted eardrum you're not going to be walking, much less shooting, straight.
 
finally somebody points out the many fakes on you tube. I have used the hornady A-Max 80 grain bullet BC .473 with excellent result in a 1x7 twist. also I have a 22-250 1x8 twist also using the 80 grain bullet. have you tried the 80 grain yet?

I've not yet found any of the 80grn's yet. They're on my high priority hit list.
 
I've not yet found any of the 80grn's yet. They're on my high priority hit list.
I have 3 boxes that I got years ago and now I looked for them and midway says no more made only a one time production. got them at natchez and they say out of stock so that is the end of them
 
I have 3 boxes that I got years ago and now I looked for them and midway says no more made only a one time production. got them at natchez and they say out of stock so that is the end of them

Yeah - the 80 A-max was discontinued. They're making an 80 ELD now, which is the one I'm looking forward to testing.
 
I'll have to say, I haven't read most of the intervening 5 pages. But I will agree, building a .223 AR for 1000 yards is a waste of good money if you want consistent hits. I say good money, because building for long range, whatever the caliber, should not be done on a tight budget. I don't agree, though, that the AR itself is not a suitable 1000 yard gun. The 6.5 Grendel, as a few people have mentioned, is quite capable at 1000 yards. I have an AR Grendel, and have hit targets at 1125 yards (18" square steel plates, so that's ~1.8 MOA at 1000 yards, about 1.5 at 1125, and I hit 6/10 at that range, and was doing 8/10 at 1000 yards. That's 123 AMAX, my loads, 2550 fps MV from a 20" barrel. I was making about the same percentage of hits as the three guys I was with, who were all shooting 178 grain SMK .308 Win; two from customized Rem. 700 bolt guns, one from a custom AR 10. I also consider them better shots than myself.

I can't argue that building a good bolt gun for the specific purpose of 1000 yd+ is probably a better idea, but if OP is set on an AR to build (actually just bolting parts together), a Grendel would be a viable setup. At 2550 fps, my rounds were still at 1255.9 fps @ 1000 yards, and were transonic at 1125. The drop at 1000 is 37.8 MOA (~378 inches, or around 31.5 feet), so if you do build something for 1000 yards, budget for a scope that has that much adjustment available, or add a 20 MOA mount. BTW, the energy of the 123 grain bullet at that range is about the same as a 165 grain .40S&W at the muzzle.
 
Bangswitch what you're saying is similar to what several of have said or have implied.
The only thing I question is the budget for the 6.5. It seems that building a 6.5 upper wouldn't be too expensive. Probably a bit more than OPs $700 budget when you add the lower. What will clobber him IMHO is putting an optic on it for that 1000 yard shooter.

It just seems that the budget is too tight for OPs requirements. I don't get why anyone would want one $700 AR to try and do what he's asking. Maybe I've been bitten by the AR bug too hard but it seems having two or three would be so much better. Sure the cost would be more but they can be built over time as I've said before. It would give OP time to learn and become proficient at each range and it would allow him to spread the cost over time. And if he were to learn to reload he'd save on his ammo and learn how to make ammo that will take advantage of the ARs he's built.

Maybe I'm missing something but most here haven't told him that he's putting the cart before the horse, and he's missing out on the opportunity to grow in several areas. To learn some great skills and to come up with really solid solutions that will benefit him for the rest of his life.
 
Bangswitch what you're saying is similar to what several of have said or have implied.
The only thing I question is the budget for the 6.5. It seems that building a 6.5 upper wouldn't be too expensive. Probably a bit more than OPs $700 budget when you add the lower. What will clobber him IMHO is putting an optic on it for that 1000 yard shooter.

It just seems that the budget is too tight for OPs requirements. I don't get why anyone would want one $700 AR to try and do what he's asking. Maybe I've been bitten by the AR bug too hard but it seems having two or three would be so much better. Sure the cost would be more but they can be built over time as I've said before. It would give OP time to learn and become proficient at each range and it would allow him to spread the cost over time. And if he were to learn to reload he'd save on his ammo and learn how to make ammo that will take advantage of the ARs he's built.

Maybe I'm missing something but most here haven't told him that he's putting the cart before the horse, and he's missing out on the opportunity to grow in several areas. To learn some great skills and to come up with really solid solutions that will benefit him for the rest of his life.

The optic is the elephant in the room (and the tools to build are the gorilla:D), no doubt about it. I asked the OP multiple times about these issues, and he chose to ignore it. At the very least, it's going to need decent tracking and prallax adjustment. I can't see spending any less than 500, and I think that would be getting off really cheap. But I think SWFA makes some stuff that might fly in that price range.
 
I saw your comments on it.
As a life long photographer, I know a little about optics. Actually I know a bit more than I'll admit. The short thing is there's reasons professional photographers have multiple lenses. The main one being it's very hard to make an optic that's good at focusing close and far away and be good all the way in between. The lenses that do are extremely expensive and even they have compromises.

On top of that the few that exist are also very large in addition to being expensive.

I can't imagine optics for firearms being any different. In fact, since they're basically the same thing e.g. A zoom lenses. I'd love to see someone prove otherwise.

I don't know about you, but it seems that the open 3 gun guys (and gals) using two optics on one gun are a good indicator that there are better options then mega glass (large heavy zoom range optics) .

Again going back to my build I'm expecting it to come in about the OPs budget range. But it's a gun I plan to use for 3 gun. And that's only for the AR. I expect the optic and mounts to be about 1/3 to 1/2 that. So total about $1000.

So using my build as an example unless he doesn't count the optic in his budget, he has little chance of staying in his budget. And it's another reason I think my solution for him is much better.

As for tools. I can understand not budgeting for them. I'm a tool junkie so I don't include them in my budget. One because I have some that can work and two because I can use them for other things and three because they'll be used for other builds.

That said they're not free and have to be considered. For my lower build I went to HF and got a set of punches. I'm sure I could have used ones I had in the tool chest but for a few bucks it just seemed easier to have a full set handy that I could dedicate to my ARs.

For the upper I'm going to have to break down and get a vice block. I already have a vice and a torque wrench. So I'm in the process of figuring what else I need. And if I should piece it together or just get one of the tool kits. OP will have to do the same. And should figure another $100 to $200 for tools if they don't have them and I'm guessing they don't. So again another thing that would help support the recommendation I'm proposing.
 
Hokie is correct, I am not considering tools in the price of the AR. Nor am I considering optics in the budget, the budget stated was for only the components of the rifle I mention that in one of my earlier posts. That being said I'm not sure what specialized tools are needed besides a barrel nut wrench "which is only $11". I have done quite a few amature gunsmith projects so I have a few tools already, plus I know someone who will loan me almost any basic tool I need including a torque wrench. I am not concerned with a action or vice block. A piece of 2x4 cut to the magwell shape and a few towels between the gun and the vice do the same things.

Anyways... I found a barrel for my AR for $200, It's a very heavy bull '.936 gas block' and is 23". Interesting how that worked out, if I find a 1" brake it will be at the 24" and I will still have my brake "yes I know the velocity will still be the same as a 23 inch".

So PSA lower- $130
23" barrel- $200
Stripped upper- $64
Total so far- $394

So what else do I need? Just the bolt and bolt carrier, handguard, and gas block? I should be able to find them for the $300 remainder correct? Any recommendations on a bolt carrier/ bolt?
 
That price on the upper seems high. Unless your including the parts for the forward assist, dust cover etc. then it's close.

I didn't see a gas tube and charging handle on your list. Otherwise I think you got everything. Well other then mags but IMHO they're like candy. Pick them up as you go along.

I don't know about others but I want to hear how this works for you.

As for the PSA lower. I have one and love it. But the trigger is nothing to write home about. And compared to the ALG in my build it's "gritty, heavy, etc". In other words it's functional but once you get a nicer trigger you'll want to upgrade.

I also HATE the stock on the PSA lower. Like the trigger it's mil spec and functional. If you really do much long distance shooting you'll be replacing it. I live the ACE skeleton stock on my build. It's about $100 but worth every penny.

PSA has some good sales on BCG. The one I'd do if I needed another BCG would be the sale with the 10 Magpul mags. Otherwise I think they've had a $60 out $70 deal going.

I'm not sure who has the best deal in freefloat hand guards, I'm watching myself.

In any case it sounds like you're close to an AR within your budget. I'm not sure it'll be great for all you want, but it should function decent.

The beauty of the AR as you know is two pins and you can swap uppers. And building another is just a lot of fun.
 
That price on the upper seems high. Unless your including the parts for the forward assist, dust cover etc. then it's close.

I didn't see a gas tube and charging handle on your list. Otherwise I think you got everything. Well other then mags but IMHO they're like candy. Pick them up as you go along.

I don't know about others but I want to hear how this works for you.

As for the PSA lower. I have one and love it. But the trigger is nothing to write home about. And compared to the ALG in my build it's "gritty, heavy, etc". In other words it's functional but once you get a nicer trigger you'll want to upgrade.

I also HATE the stock on the PSA lower. Like the trigger it's mil spec and functional. If you really do much long distance shooting you'll be replacing it. I live the ACE skeleton stock on my build. It's about $100 but worth every penny.

PSA has some good sales on BCG. The one I'd do if I needed another BCG would be the sale with the 10 Magpul mags. Otherwise I think they've had a $60 out $70 deal going.

I'm not sure who has the best deal in freefloat hand guards, I'm watching myself.

In any case it sounds like you're close to an AR within your budget. I'm not sure it'll be great for all you want, but it should function decent.

The beauty of the AR as you know is two pins and you can swap uppers. And building another is just a lot of fun.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, I might go over the budget about $100 and get a Geissele trigger I heard really good things. As for the stock I decided on just getting a fixed A2. After the guns done I'll post some pictures and after that I'll do a range report, even at 1000 yards.
 
There's a problem with that $200 barrel I found. It's only offered in 1:8 twist not 1:7. I never planned on shooting rounds with lengths longer than what would fit in the magazine. So do you guys think 1:8 is fast enough to stabilize the heaviest grain bullet that'll fit in an AR mag? Or is it worth spending an extra $130 on the 1:7 twist Ritch Precision barrel? The $200 barrel is made by a reputable company, they made barrels for navy seal snipers in the past.
 
I'm not sure where you get $130 for the lower. The PSA lower is see with the A2 stock is $149.99.
That's still not bad with free shipping. But having had an AR with a similar stock I'll tell you I like the ACE so much better. I know it's $50 or $60 more but IMHO it's worth every penny.

That said a few bucks here and a few there are what destroy our budgets.

And I'm looking forward to seeing the posts on your range trips.
Wish I could offer you help on twist, I haven't done enough research on long range shooting as I'm interested in 3 gun. So that's where I've focused. And just finding info on that's been interesting. Lots of debate on 16" vs 18" and gas length.

In your case though the folks that shoot really long distances are significantly less in number. So I'd think it would be easier. It seems a few have contributed to this thread.
 
Jmar
I had a few min to look at some of your posts.
Please take this as someone curious about what you're trying to do. And someone wanting to offer what help they can.....

So do you mind if I ask if you reload. And why youre adverse to considering the multi gun option I've suggested. Or at least the multi upper.

Looking at your posts it seems like the best advice you've been given over and over is to work up to your 1000 yard goal. You seem to ignore it. Or at least it appears that way. I'm just curious why this is the case or if I'm missing something.

Again it seems like your missing a great chance to build a lot of skills because of your focus on an end result and not the journey.

So please forgive me if I seem like I'm insulting you, again, I'm just trying to fill in some of the holes in your post to see if the disconnect that appears can be closed.
 
There's a problem with that $200 barrel I found. It's only offered in 1:8 twist not 1:7. I never planned on shooting rounds with lengths longer than what would fit in the magazine. So do you guys think 1:8 is fast enough to stabilize the heaviest grain bullet that'll fit in an AR mag? Or is it worth spending an extra $130 on the 1:7 twist Ritch Precision barrel? The $200 barrel is made by a reputable company, they made barrels for navy seal snipers in the past.

1 moa at a 1k yards is 10''. You will not get that, though. Even on a seemingly perfectly calm day, there's a lot that can happen to a little .22 cal. bullet when it's in flight that long. To have any practical accuracy at 1k yards you need the most accurate barrel you can afford. That is the heart of your build, and here you are wanting to cheap out on the barrel, then turn around and buy literally the most expensive trigger on the market.

Priorities man! You need to get your priorities straight. Your first priority the barrel, and your second priority is the scope. Everything else is an afterthought.

A good trigger is a priority, don't get me wrong, but a much less expensive trigger will get you 95% of the way to a Geissele. If you can outshoot a Rock River Arms two stage trigger then you can certainly outshoot a $200 barrel. That is cheap for any barrel, and unheard of for a precision barrel. Also keep in mind that Ritch is just a reseller. The actual maker is Black Hole Weaponry, and they're some of the most well respected barrels on the market. You may find a better barrel, but not for anything close to that price. Ritch is just a cheap source for them.

And don't forget that triggers can be upgraded, along with handguards, stocks, pistol grips, gas blocks, etc. But you absolutely do not want to find yourself in the position of having to upgrade the barrel. It is the rifle.
 
grampajack
I agree with you that he needs his priorities set. But I'm not sure if he really understands what he is trying to do. I've yet to see him clearly state what his goal is.
So until he can do that I think this is all an exercise in running around in circles.
It seems he has an interest in long range shooting. But his other posts indicate that he's not done any. From what I can see all he's done is 80 yards with a 22LR. So unless I've missed something, it seems he has a long way to go from that to his 1000 yards. It's why I asked him to explain. Maybe then you could help him much better. Until then, I'm sticking with my suggestion of getting a good AR, learning all he can about it, learn to reload, and do as others have said and work up to the 1000 yards by becoming the best shot he can through a progression of practice and improving his gear over time.

If he's never owned an AR I think the PSA lower is a good choice for him. I agree with you getting a super expensive trigger isn't the way to go. In fact, the Mil Spec is probably fine for him to learn the platform with and will be good for the self defense role he stated in his initial posts. He could spend the money and get a decent upper for the self defense role from really close to 200 to 300 yards. Get a decent optic for that and have one part of the equation. While doing this he could be saving up to build another upper. Then in between build another lower and put a much better trigger in it.

But I think before he does any of that he needs to get more involved in this discussion. Think about the points we've made and become more open to alternatives to his one solution. Now that doesn't mean he should ditch his plan. Just consider the alternatives, then make a good decision based on a well thought out plan, not one based on some cool sounding goal.
 
So do you guys think 1:8 is fast enough to stabilize the heaviest grain bullet that'll fit in an AR mag?

Sierra says 8 twist is enough for their 77 grain magazine length bullet. Berger says 8 twist is enough for their 73 grain bullet which appears to be magazine length.

HOWEVER: Banging away from a clip full of boolits is not the way to get mid to long range accuracy. You would do better to load a 75, maybe 80 gr VLD, SMK, or ELD to the greatest OAL that would clear the lands, and go single loading for best accuracy.
 
So do you guys think 1:8 is fast enough to stabilize the heaviest grain bullet that'll fit in an AR mag?

I am not concerned with a action or vice block. A piece of 2x4 cut to the magwell shape and a few towels between the gun and the vice do the same things.

Yup... I'm out... The kid is a ping pong ball, just bouncing back and forth wherever the wind blows, and hollow inside.
 
P.S. do not clamp your upper into a vice with towels!

If it's a flat top upper you can block it into the vice using wood, placing it sideways between the jaws. Use hardwood, though, or better yet a good thick nylon cutting board. White pine will deform too much.
 
P.S. do not clamp your upper into a vice with towels!

If it's a flat top upper you can block it into the vice using wood, placing it sideways between the jaws. Use hardwood, though, or better yet a good thick nylon cutting board. White pine will deform too much.
I'm all for saving where possible. And I understand tight budgets. But some things aren't worth not doing right.
A fast Google search and I found upper vice blocks for $21 to $25.

I didn't reply to him on that as I was dumbfounded.
I know there's comments on the web about being able to put ARs together with almost no tools. But it seems to me if you're looking to build a precision rifle at least spend a few bucks on the most important ones. Or at least borrow them.
 
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