I have been reloading for bolt guns for quite some time. I recently decided to start reloading for my ar. So i purchased some everglades 55 grain round nose fmj bullets and some cfe 223. I started with 25.9 grains and worked up to 27.7 grains. My velocities ran low which i can deal with because my 16" barrel is a far cry from the 24" that they used for the data. But on my higher loads i had several fail to feeds. The spent case jams with the next round trying to feed. I have since tryed other primers, including magnums, with the same results. I then tried winchester 748 and had the same results on the high end. Since they both are on the slowest end of suitable powder birn rates i have decider to go faster and decided to try 8208xbr. I have not had a chance to test these yet. I know this is a ammo issue because my firearm functions flawlessly on factory ammo. I am looking to make a xm193 equivalent, which fires at 3115 fps from my ar. The highest I've gotten so far was the high 2900's with monumental failures. Any insight would be greatly apreciated. Thanks in advance.
Ar-15 reloading issues.
- Thread starter kris6600
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fallout mike
Member
Ammo manufacturers use blends of powders that me and you don't have access to.
True and if i was having pressure issues and still not at the velocity i want i would be ok with that. I'm trying to solve this fail to feed issue.
243winxb
Member
The gas port pressure curve is a critical part of internal ballistics for cartridges used in gas operated firearms. Gas operated weapons are generally tailored to a narrow range of powder burning rates and characteristics. If the port pressure is too low the weapon will fail to function and if to high the weapon may function too forcefully or rapidly causing extraction or cycling problems. When using the fast powders the pressure peaks very fast and is done producing pressure sooner than your slow powders. With such a wide range of bullet weights from 40gr to 80gr, matching the gas port location and size is critical. . http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/ Try the 5.56 data at link.
That was kind of what i was thinking. I was thinking that the slow burning powders i was using were still creating a large amount of pressure at the gas port so now I'm trying faster powders. I have an adjustable gas block but I'm trying to build a load that stays within the same setting as my other ammo. I've reloaded for my m1 garand and m1a for years and have had no function issues. I guess ar's are just finicky. Thank you for your knowledge.
oldpapps
Member
kris6600,
I have never tried 'everglades 55 grain round nose fmj bullets or cfe 223 or 8208xb'. So, I don't know if I can help.
But, I am more concerned with what is going on. As stated above, we don't get some or most of the powders used commercially. The fastest standardized loading I have in this case is running 3013 FPS, at 10 ft, out of a 20 inch barrel with 1 in 8 twist and a Wylde chamber. It uses 748 powder and Dogtown 55 grain HPFB bullets.
My question to you is what is going on to cause the fail to feed. But then, you are wondering also. Are you getting any pressure signs? Anything out of the ordinary from the load being fired, other than the following round problem?
This intrigues me. Inquiring minds and all of that.
I have never tried 'everglades 55 grain round nose fmj bullets or cfe 223 or 8208xb'. So, I don't know if I can help.
But, I am more concerned with what is going on. As stated above, we don't get some or most of the powders used commercially. The fastest standardized loading I have in this case is running 3013 FPS, at 10 ft, out of a 20 inch barrel with 1 in 8 twist and a Wylde chamber. It uses 748 powder and Dogtown 55 grain HPFB bullets.
My question to you is what is going on to cause the fail to feed. But then, you are wondering also. Are you getting any pressure signs? Anything out of the ordinary from the load being fired, other than the following round problem?
This intrigues me. Inquiring minds and all of that.
Nothing out of the ordinary other than the failure. The spent case causes then next round to miss the ramp and jams the bullet deep into the neck. This is weird to me because cfe233 and 748 are both considered very good ar powders. I do have a mid length system and not a carbine. I guess if my 8208 load doesn't work the next step would be to load 100 of near max rounds and mess with my adjustable gas block. That will at least tell me if i am fighting a surpluss or deficit of gas at the port.
chris in va
Member
I would just stick with the 'standard' 223 powders...335, 322, 2230, BLC-2 etc.
JamieC
Member
I've used both CFE223 and Everglades Ammo 55gr fmj, just not together. I've had no problems with the CFE223 powder, in fact, got my most accurate loads near max, (I was loading 55gr VMax). I've just started using the Everglades ammo, 55gr and 75gr HPBT, I'll be buying more of them. In my limited experience, I'd say adjusting your gas block would be one of the first places I'd look. Obviously, the higher pressure is causing grief. If not the gas block, possibly a weak recoil spring. Sounds like the bolt is moving too fast for the rest of the mechanics.
Dave P
Member
Confusing. Are you full-length sizing?? You should.
"The highest I've gotten so far was the high 2900's with monumental failures." Failure to feed is your only failure, correct?
"The highest I've gotten so far was the high 2900's with monumental failures." Failure to feed is your only failure, correct?
I am full length small base resizing them. That would be a good place to look if i wasn't. And yes that is the only failure I'm getting. But only on the higher end. Around 2700fps or so everything functions flawlessly.
earplug
Member
16 vs 20
I doubt that you can safely load a round that will duplicate a 55 Grain M193 velocity out of your 16 inch barrel. The published figures are from a 20"
I have used H335 and Hornady's 55 grain FMJ and measured 3165 fps without issue with a GI 20 inch barrel. Then case head expansion becomes a issue.
The military does not worry about reloading their brass.
What is the nature of your malfunctions? Is the fired case left in the chamber? Or a simple double feed? You can try offsetting your gas block to mask the gas port. Try that before buying more parts.
I doubt that you can safely load a round that will duplicate a 55 Grain M193 velocity out of your 16 inch barrel. The published figures are from a 20"
I have used H335 and Hornady's 55 grain FMJ and measured 3165 fps without issue with a GI 20 inch barrel. Then case head expansion becomes a issue.
The military does not worry about reloading their brass.
What is the nature of your malfunctions? Is the fired case left in the chamber? Or a simple double feed? You can try offsetting your gas block to mask the gas port. Try that before buying more parts.
Cemetery21
Member
If the fired case is not getting out of the ejection port, it sounds like the extractor is losing control of the case. It may be that, as you increase pressure, the fired case is still under some pressure when extraction starts. The "donut" o-ring around the extractor spring is designed to increase extractor tension and may be an option for you, if you are not already using one.
I normally take the donut out because I don't run 556 pressures.
I normally take the donut out because I don't run 556 pressures.
oldpapps
Member
16 inch and 20 inch barrels.
I load for the weapon, and suitable velocities will ease in. That said, my standardized loading for my 20 inch gives 3013 FPS [rifle gas length], for my 16 inch [mid length gas], I drop the charge (of 748) by .4 grains and have a velocity loss to 2811 FPS, about 200 FPS. Both are Wylde chambers. These loads are tailored for each weapon, best overall function, zero failures and accuracy.
In the for what it is worth column, my loading for my 1974 vintage Sterling AR-180 [White gas piston], 18 inch true 5.56 chamber of the time, with one tenth grain more 748 over the 16 inch load, gives me 2724 FPS, a loss of 90ish FPS.
All velocities are taken at 10 feet and with not less than 15 samples each.
Each weapon is it's own mystery. Load for your weapon, not searching for some equivalency. As stated you have an adjustable gas block. Try minor changes but mark where the weapon functions with commercial ammo.
An indepth study may be needed to find the problem/s with the current 'hotter' loads. What happens with no magazine in the well when fired?
I load for the weapon, and suitable velocities will ease in. That said, my standardized loading for my 20 inch gives 3013 FPS [rifle gas length], for my 16 inch [mid length gas], I drop the charge (of 748) by .4 grains and have a velocity loss to 2811 FPS, about 200 FPS. Both are Wylde chambers. These loads are tailored for each weapon, best overall function, zero failures and accuracy.
In the for what it is worth column, my loading for my 1974 vintage Sterling AR-180 [White gas piston], 18 inch true 5.56 chamber of the time, with one tenth grain more 748 over the 16 inch load, gives me 2724 FPS, a loss of 90ish FPS.
All velocities are taken at 10 feet and with not less than 15 samples each.
Each weapon is it's own mystery. Load for your weapon, not searching for some equivalency. As stated you have an adjustable gas block. Try minor changes but mark where the weapon functions with commercial ammo.
An indepth study may be needed to find the problem/s with the current 'hotter' loads. What happens with no magazine in the well when fired?
cougar1717
Member
IMHO, I think the OP answered the question. If the problem is that factory ammo cycles, but reloads on the upper end of the data don't cycle and there is an adjustable gas block involved.
I totally understand the rationale - to leave the rifle alone and find a load to cycle and not have to adjust the gas block. The red flag in my mind is that it is doing the exact same thing with at least two correct-for-application powders. It almost has to be the adjustment of the gas block.
I totally understand the rationale - to leave the rifle alone and find a load to cycle and not have to adjust the gas block. The red flag in my mind is that it is doing the exact same thing with at least two correct-for-application powders. It almost has to be the adjustment of the gas block.
I completely agree that adjusting the block would be the easiest route. But i reload so that i don't have to tailor my rifle to my available loads and on top of that i have three settings on my block. All other ammo functions on #2 setting and when i run supressed i have to use the #1 setting. If i adjust my block to #1 to fire this load then i won't be able to step the pressure down for supressed fire. So i see my available options limited to changing powders. Both powders I've tried are right next to eachother in relative burn rates and both are about the slowest powders considered to be suitable. So i feel like i'll have better luck with some faster powders. If that doesn't work then I'll have no choice but to mess with my block.
thump_rrr
Member
I use IMR 8208 XBR exclusively in my AR's.
I have shot over 6,000 rounds in any brand of brass you can imagine from military to commercial.
I load between 24 and 25 grain topped with Hornady 55gr FMJ W/cannelure.
They are shot through my Noveske 14.5" Afghan with a carbine buffer and my 10.5" CQB using an H-2 buffer.
Are you sure that you are properly sizing your cases?
I have shot over 6,000 rounds in any brand of brass you can imagine from military to commercial.
I load between 24 and 25 grain topped with Hornady 55gr FMJ W/cannelure.
They are shot through my Noveske 14.5" Afghan with a carbine buffer and my 10.5" CQB using an H-2 buffer.
Are you sure that you are properly sizing your cases?
I'm using a small base sizing die so i should be fine. I've loaded the 8208 but haven't had a chance to try them yet. I use that powder in my son's 7mm -08 and i love it. I think that it's going to solve my problems. Thank you for your input. Good to hear someone's using it in 223 with similar barrel lengths.
That was another thought that i was having but you wouldn't think that would effect the spent case's ability to clear the action. But trying other bullets may be a future option if i don't fix this with powder selection. It would suck if it was the bullets since i have 1000.
So i made it to the range today with the 8208 rounds. I had the same problem. Everything is definitely moving to fast. The bolt is opening while still under some pressure getting a little gas blowback. Changed my gas port to #1 and everything ran fine. That is not the way i wanted to correct this. Im still wondering if there is any way i can load ammo that will function on the same gas port settings as my factory ammo does.
Ironicaintit
Member
Isnt that supposed to be the beauty of adjustability? To tune the rifle for differently spec'd ammo?
FWIW, I use IMR3031 or IMR4198. But to be honest, I have not chrono'd either of them.
FWIW, I use IMR3031 or IMR4198. But to be honest, I have not chrono'd either of them.
In most cases, yes. But that doesn't leave me any adjustment for when i shoot that ammo supressed.
Ironicaintit
Member
I see. Yeah, i know diddly squat about suppression.
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