AR-15 stocks

[gbinga]

I want to add a semiautomatic rifle to my collection, for home defense and emergency use. For various reasons, my search is narrowing to the AR-15/M4 family of rifles and carbines. But I have a question.

When I handle an AR-15 at a gun shop, the sights seem to be unnaturally low, or more to the point, the butt-stock doesn't have enough drop to allow for a comfortable sight picture.

Rightly or wrongly, I've gotten the impression that the AR-15 stock is straight, with very little drop, in order to make the rifle easier to handle when fired full auto. But that doesn't seem like a very relevant feature in a semi-auto rifle chambered in 5.56mm... we aren't talking about much of a recoil here.

I've been pondering this for some time, and I don't think the unnatural sight-line is just my imagination. Every time I see a picture or video of someone using an AR type rifle under stress (like in combat overseas) it seems that I see the person positioning the lowest point on the but-stock onto the highest possible point on their shoulder, presumably so as to get the sights up high enough to see without holding their head sideways. If people reading this don't understand what I am trying to describe, I will try to come up with some links to pictures on the net.

My question is two-fold;

-If service people in the field are going to use the stock like that, why don't they redesign the stock with some drop so that you could position it comfortably on your shoulder and see the sights?

-Are there aftermarket stocks that address the problem?

I will readily admit that I am not the most experienced shooter around, and I've never had any instruction on how to operate an AR-15. But I am not an inexperienced shooter, and I think I have sense enough to know what seems comfortable and natural to me, and what doesn't.

Thanks for reading-

GBinGA

 

[7.62 Solution]

I am pretty sure the stock is straight for 2 reasons. One the recoil buffer and spring are in the the stock and must go straight back behind the moving bolt carrier group or it would bind. Second is recoil management the straight stock can transmit recoil to the mass of the shooter's shoulder without excessive muzzle climb, especially in full auto (m16, m4 ...). This was a factor with the m14 that has a drop and may have played in the adoption of the original m16.

 

[gbinga]

I decided to go ahead and find some examples, in case my description was not sensible...

 

[rcmodel]

The photos you see of solders show them wearing full body armor and shooting with the adjsutable stock nearly in the shortest position to make up for it.

The stock has to be straight for the reason 7.62 Solution posted.

Some of the operating parts are inside the buffer tube, which is inside the stock.
If it had any drop, it wouldn't work.

rc

 

[CmpsdNoMore]

That is an interesting question. It does seem like the only time I see people shooting with the stock "in the pocket" is for competition or the Magpul videos where the stance is very aggressive.

 

[Mobuck]

I don't know what sort of face shape the OP has but I've not seen anyone who had a lot of trouble getting behind open sights on an AR. MY SIL is a BIG boy with somewhat puffy jowls and he does fine.
I don't care for the "high hold" we see a lot of the military use, but I don't have to deal with body armor either.

 

[TonyAngel]

gbinga, you really should just get out and shoot one and see. Although the stocks are straight, the sights are also substantially higher off of the axis of the bore than they are on rifles of more conventional design.

The guys in the pics that you posted are holding their rifles the way they are for reasons that suit them. They are wearing body armor, the stocks are collapsed and holding the rifle as they are allows them to get a sight picture while keeping their heads almost straight up, which allows for more mobility.

If pictures are what you want to see, find some pics or videos of guys shooting 3 gun matches. Many of those guys run their rifles with the stocks fully extended.

I just ran to my safe and grabbed an AR and a Marlin lever gun and the AR doesn't feel any more awkward than the Marlin does when shouldering both and getting a sight picture.

 

[NateH]

When I tried to put an optical scope on my AR, I found that I couldn't get my head low enough to see through the scope even with "extra high" scope rings so I put a scope riser on and it lifted it to where it's comfortable. I had a Tru-glo red dot scope on there for a while and found I didn't need the riser and when I finally got around to putting BUIS on, they were high enough that I could shoot it and it felt "normal". My $.02

 

[gbinga]

...recoil management the straight stock can transmit recoil to the mass of the shooter's shoulder without excessive muzzle climb, especially in full auto (m16, m4 ...)

- That makes sense if you have the butt of the stock squarely on your shoulder. If you have it elevated like the guys in the picture, then you may as well have some drop, because the end result is going to be the same.

Some of the operating parts are inside the buffer tube, which is inside the stock. If it had any drop, it wouldn't work.

- Actually that isn't true. You could build as much drop as you wanted to into the butt section, it wouldn't have any effect on the buffer. Might look a bit funny, but an AR is not exactly pretty to start with.

Thanks for the replies. Please understand that I'm not trying to start a fight about the sacred and incomparable AR system.. On the contrary, I am probably going to buy one. Just trying to understand what appears to me an ergonomic problem with the stock. I'm glad at least a couple of guys who replied seem to recognize the problem. I feel a bit less dense now.

GBinGA

 

[justice06rr]

As far as I know there are a multitude of different adjustable stocks that can address that (with adjustable cheek wield), if that was an issue for you. Its never been a problem for me, and I'm quite new to AR's also. It is a matter of getting used to it IMO. If it really was an issue, wouldn't you think the Military would've asked for a redesign?

 

[awgrizzly]

Gbinga, the AR has a direct line from muzzle to stock for the reason you stated, and it allows the use of a buffer in the stock instead of forward like the pistons rifles have. This is advantageous not only for full auto but for semi fire also, because it allows much faster recovery between shots (the muzzle doesn't jump up). They do make rifles with drop in the stock if that's what you want.

The original AR was designed with a handle and a sight on top, but few people ever use the handle to carry the rifle... it's more there to raise the height of the rear sight and the handle was probably an afterthought. When installing optics on a flat top AR you must install a riser rail to raise the scope rings, use high scope rings, or a one piece high mount designed for the AR. Failing to do so will result in the optics being too low for most people to see through. My son can do it but not me. Also, you need to be high enough to see over the top of the front sight.

In the end, whatever one's personal preferences may be, we must keep in mind that the M16 is a military rifle and not subject to arbitrary adjustments and refinements... everything must conform to specs and specs don't change easily because of the expense and complications it would cause. In short, we're back to the point where if you rather have a different type of rifle they're available.

If the optics are installed correctly there is no problem with cheek weld and it works very well. Holding the stock high is a matter of preference and comfort. It might not be as good an option was it a 300 Winchester Magnum.

 

[gbinga]

The post from Grizzly seems to be a pretty good summation, and he makes some good points.

keep in mind that the M16 is a military rifle and not subject to arbitrary adjustments and refinements... everything must conform to specs and specs don't change easily because of the expense and complications it would cause. In short, we're back to the point where if you rather have a different type of rifle they're available.

Actually here in the civilian world that most of us live in I see ARs customized with all sorts of different stocks, sights, forends, etc. Things don't conform to specs other than the satisfaction of the individual user.

One of the things I was asking was whether anyone makes a stock with adjustable drop - anyone know?

Regarding various people that posted about body armor, I am not sure that I see your point. Body armor is thick, so you collapse the stock to compensate and get the effective length of pull back where you want it. What does that have to do with holding the rifle high on your shoulder?

As to the whole recoil management aspect, I just can't get very impressed with that so far due to A-semiautomatic rifle, not full auto B-.223 recoil is light C-straight line stock doesn't accomplish anything if people using the rifle under stress insist on holding it high on the shoulder.

GBinGA

 

[kcshooter]

Some of the operating parts are inside the buffer tube, which is inside the stock. If it had any drop, it wouldn't work.

Actually that isn't true. You could build as much drop as you wanted to into the butt section, it wouldn't have any effect on the buffer. Might look a bit funny, but an Ais not exactly pretty to start with.

Actually, yeah, it is true.


Buffer tube is over 7" long. Any drop would be past that and would be useless.

 

[kBob]

Think we have a word usage issue at work here.

I think what the OP really wants is an adjustable buttplate like found on some match rimfires.

This would let him put the butt in the shoulder pocket and hold the rifle "higher". So some sort of custom stock with a carbine/pistol buffer tube assembly and either and adjustable butt pad that could be lowered or simply with the butt lower so the tube is like the comb on a montacarlo stock.

I seem to recall the Johnson had something like this last on some models.

This help?

-kBob

 

[kcshooter]

Lowering the buttplate won't help a cheek weld issue.

the butt-stock doesn't have enough drop to allow for a comfortable sight picture.

But you might be right, a buttstock that lowers it in the pocket may be what he's looking for.

OP, is it a buttstock placement issue, or a cheek placement issue?

 

[Tex4426]

Its impossible to use a drop stock because of the buffer tube like a few have stated im assuming you wer looking at a flat top....my suggestion would be if ur goin to use iron sights u either need to go with a carry handle or use risers on the flat top...if ur going with optics RRA hi rise mounts work great for me or you can buy a scope riser with normal level rings..3/4 of an inch high rise is what i use on my flat top

 

[Manny]

The shooters in the pics are using a very "heads up" shooting posture, which is what I was taught when I learned to shoot an M1 Garand in CMP shoots also. Google up some pics of CMP shooters using ANY of our service rifles and you'll see it's not just common to an AR, it's quite common for off hand target shooting regardless of which rifle is being shot. As I recall the reason for that style is it helps keep the spine in line for a more stable off-hand shooting hold. Now look at most pictures of folks shouldering virtually any type rifle and note that commonly instead of shooting "heads up" most shooters instead have their head lowered to a firm cheekweld. It's just a difference in shooting styles.

Also like most any mass produced product, the AR's dimensions are set to conform to the "average" person, and if you fall outside that average range those dimensions may not be as comfortable. Where the AR excells is being able to be adjusted to individuals very well. I believe as you get more familiar with the AR platform you'll find this to be a non-issue. If it is, you should easily be able to address it given the AR's potential for adjustibility.

 

[Fishbed77]

One of the things I was asking was whether anyone makes a stock with adjustable drop

The Magpul PRS stock has the adjustments you are looking for, but it is a rather expensive and heavy solution geared towards precision shooting from a rest or bipod.

gbinga,

Your best bet would be to fire an AR with a standard fixed or carbine buttstock to see how it suits you. I think you'll quickly find that the ergonomics of the standard setups are rather good, especially if the optics are mounted at the correct height.

 

[Tex4426]

The PRS only adjust up.. the way im understanding he wants it to go down and u cant because the buffer tube

 

[rcmodel]

The OP sounds like he needs to buy an AK-47 instead of an AR-15.

rc

 

[Fishbed77]

The PRS only adjust up..

You're correct - I was remembering incorrectly - the PRS has just an adjustable cheek riser & length of pull. But it does have a butt-pad that is deeper than most.

Still, as long as the optics are on the correct-height mounts, there should be no issues with achieving the correct fit. This is pretty easy because of the number of good AR-specific mounts/rings/sights out there.

 

[Tex4426]

They are a very nice stock but they are very pricey...i went with the ACS with enhanced buttpad...but if u want real soft rubber ur best bet is a fixed stock

 

[Caliper_Mi]

I decided to go ahead and find some examples, in case my description was not sensible...

These guys are showing proper form for shouldering a rifle while standing. Whether it is an AR15 or a M1 Garand or a Winchester 94. Only the toe of the stock should be in your shoulder pocket, half or more should be showing over your back so that your head can remain upright.

 

[Nushif]

Body armor is thick, so you collapse the stock to compensate and get the effective length of pull back where you want it. What does that have to do with holding the rifle high on your shoulder?

I set mine really high on my shoulder in body armor because there is all kinds of crap strapped to my chest. If I put the butt stock in the "proper" place it's be resting against a compass, antenna, pace beads, a microphone, a grenade pouch or whatever is resting up there already. The front of the chest is rime real estate for all kind of good stuff that I desperately need more than a rifle. Hells. I rarely shoot the darn thing anyways.

(As a matter of fact my training highly encourages me to carry tracers downrange so I can send one out for *others* to see my target.)

[edit]
Looking at my form actually I cant the whole weapon to the point where it's almost at a 45 degree angle and barely in contact with my body anymore. It's canted to where I can see the sights, but again, at that angle. Seeing as I don't use the fun switch anyways my rate of fire has never been an issue, either. What this does at least for me is allow the best mobility and lets me square off against a threat the best and lets me actually take up that aggressive stance for longer without muscle fatigue. Also the sling and weapon don't snag on stuff.

Interesting stuff.

 

[Ar180shooter]

When I tried to put an optical scope on my AR, I found that I couldn't get my head low enough to see through the scope even with "extra high" scope rings so I put a scope riser on and it lifted it to where it's comfortable. I had a Tru-glo red dot scope on there for a while and found I didn't need the riser and when I finally got around to putting BUIS on, they were high enough that I could shoot it and it felt "normal". My $.02

AR's have special scope mounts that are really high (compared to regular scope rings), in order to come up to an appropriate level. Even extra high scope rings are far too low.