AR bedroom gun
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Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Tallship said:
What after effects are you talking about and why do you think they are so severe that we wouldn't even want to contemplate them?
selector67
Member
I prefer to use my Yugo AK underfolder for home defence, and my 45 as backup, I live alone and the houses around here are spaced pretty much apart where I dont have to worry about collateral damage. Nothing wrong with a 12 gauge or a 223 for home defence. I have 2 ARs., an A1 and an A2 model. If I was going to use a 223 for home defence I would prefer my mini-14 GB over the AR because of what I call the quick pull factor. I find it quicker, and easier to chamber a round in a mini-14 or an AK than an AR. You may find yourself in a situation where the intruder is already in your house, and every second counts. I find the charging handle on an AR to be a bit slower, but thats just my personal experience with the guns I own. Now if you keep a bullet in the chamber 
thats a different story. As far as the shotgun is concerned, I prefer not to use it since I have pet parrot in the house, and I dont think he would appreciate buckshot or birdshot going his way.
thats a different story. As far as the shotgun is concerned, I prefer not to use it since I have pet parrot in the house, and I dont think he would appreciate buckshot or birdshot going his way.
Since a reasonable percentage of THR are either active service, veterans, or current or former law enforcement, your first assumption is not a very good one. Why would we not want to contemplate all aspects of self and home defense? We want fire extinguishers, insurance, at least one good firearm, lights, an exit plan...why the hell would we NOT contemplate what will happen after we choose not to be the victim of a violent attack?!
Sometimes you have to improvise, but you should always, ALWAYS, have a plan.
John
sacp81170a
Member
Shark 3-1:
???? Why? Because they're inexpensive, effective and the manual of arms is so much simpler than an AR? Or is it because so many more people own them? You raise some valid points in favor of an AR or similar weapon, but do nothing to support your bold assertion that a shotgun is a very poor self defense choice. It may be a better or worse choice depending on circumstances.
Not everyone can afford a $1500 tricked out M4gery with a $400 optic and a $250 light, but I bet a lot of people can afford a $200 pump shotgun of whatever flavor.
As for me, I fit the weapon to the circumstance. An AR is a good choice for me, but for my wife it's a Mossberg 500 youth model in 20 ga. Works fine for her, much better than an AR she's uncomfortable with. YMMV.
???? Why? Because they're inexpensive, effective and the manual of arms is so much simpler than an AR? Or is it because so many more people own them? You raise some valid points in favor of an AR or similar weapon, but do nothing to support your bold assertion that a shotgun is a very poor self defense choice. It may be a better or worse choice depending on circumstances.
Not everyone can afford a $1500 tricked out M4gery with a $400 optic and a $250 light, but I bet a lot of people can afford a $200 pump shotgun of whatever flavor.
As for me, I fit the weapon to the circumstance. An AR is a good choice for me, but for my wife it's a Mossberg 500 youth model in 20 ga. Works fine for her, much better than an AR she's uncomfortable with. YMMV.
I don't think a shotgun is very effective because of the time spent to get back on target due to recoil and/or having to manually chamber a round. Either way it will take longer to get a second shot off with a shotgun than it would with a pistol or AR.
I am trained in CQB and have used those skills many times in combat. I know how to use my AR. I think that you should be proficient to use any weapon that you employ in your defense. I wouldn't hand my wife/girlfriend/kids a frickin water pistol if they didn't know how to use it, there are too many factors that could make that go incredibly wrong in a real world situation. The best weapon in any situation is one that you can actually employ effectively.
To the guy that said:
"An 18" barrelled shotgun has a spread of about 10" at 5 yards. That means you have a 20" range of hitting the person with at least one ball of 00 buck, which will do some pretty good damage. And you're buying the gun because it makes that sound, which alerts the intruder that you are armed. 99% of bad guys don't want anything to do with an armed homeowner."
You can't be serious, our issue 14.5" shotguns didn't group that large. Also, why in the hell would you keep an unloaded gun for self defense, so the perp can know where you are? Or is it because you want it to make that sound so that everyone in a 3 block area starts running?
People look, it is no easier to hit a person with a shotgun than it is with anything else. The damage that a high powered rifle does to a person at HD ranges is just as catastrophic as a shotgun, maybe more depending on several variables (trust me on this I've seen both). The idea isn't to scare the intruder, the goal is to end the threat. Sounds that a gun makes won't help.
There is no such thing as the "one shot stop" round. I've seen people survive 50 BMG hits and certaintly I've seen people survive shotgun rounds. The key to winning a gunfight is to be able to get the maximum amount of power downrange faster and more accurately than the bad guy. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting until it quits moving. The AR excells at this, the shotgun does not.
If you don't believe me, take your "hammer of thor" (shotgun) and an AR to the range with a timer. Mark off the distance of the farthest shot you will take in your home. See how many rounds you can get on paper in 5 sec. with both weapons. Then you'll understand.
I am trained in CQB and have used those skills many times in combat. I know how to use my AR. I think that you should be proficient to use any weapon that you employ in your defense. I wouldn't hand my wife/girlfriend/kids a frickin water pistol if they didn't know how to use it, there are too many factors that could make that go incredibly wrong in a real world situation. The best weapon in any situation is one that you can actually employ effectively.
To the guy that said:
"An 18" barrelled shotgun has a spread of about 10" at 5 yards. That means you have a 20" range of hitting the person with at least one ball of 00 buck, which will do some pretty good damage. And you're buying the gun because it makes that sound, which alerts the intruder that you are armed. 99% of bad guys don't want anything to do with an armed homeowner."
You can't be serious, our issue 14.5" shotguns didn't group that large. Also, why in the hell would you keep an unloaded gun for self defense, so the perp can know where you are? Or is it because you want it to make that sound so that everyone in a 3 block area starts running?
People look, it is no easier to hit a person with a shotgun than it is with anything else. The damage that a high powered rifle does to a person at HD ranges is just as catastrophic as a shotgun, maybe more depending on several variables (trust me on this I've seen both). The idea isn't to scare the intruder, the goal is to end the threat. Sounds that a gun makes won't help.
There is no such thing as the "one shot stop" round. I've seen people survive 50 BMG hits and certaintly I've seen people survive shotgun rounds. The key to winning a gunfight is to be able to get the maximum amount of power downrange faster and more accurately than the bad guy. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting until it quits moving. The AR excells at this, the shotgun does not.
If you don't believe me, take your "hammer of thor" (shotgun) and an AR to the range with a timer. Mark off the distance of the farthest shot you will take in your home. See how many rounds you can get on paper in 5 sec. with both weapons. Then you'll understand.
357wheelgunner
Member
The only AR I'd ever consider using in the house would be an SBR 9mm. Actually that's a good idea, I think I'll look into it. I could hook it up with all the tacticool crap I've been itching to try, but still be able to shoot it at the local indoor pistol range.
My wallet hates you guys for making me think such things......
My wallet hates you guys for making me think such things......
357wheelgunner
Member
"There is no such thing as the "one shot stop" round. I've seen people survive 50 BMG hits and certaintly I've seen people survive shotgun rounds. The key to winning a gunfight is to be able to get the maximum amount of power downrange faster and more accurately than the bad guy. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting until it quits moving. The AR excells at this, the shotgun does not. "
The 5.56mm AR is a terrible house gun IMO, unless your family members sleep with ear plugs on. You'd have a whole deaf family, all because daddy lit up the badguy with 30 rounds in 5 seconds that, although they killed the badguy 15 times, ruined the family's hearing for life. There are better ideas
What you aren't considering with the shotgun is that each round of buckshot is the equivalant of 12 or so rounds of 9mm, and if you can put one round where it counts the fight should be over. Also, if you can fire your shotgun 3 times in the span it takes the AR to fire 30, the round count is the same.
I'll take my shotgun, or a short barreled pistol caliber carbine in the house thank you.
The 5.56mm AR is a terrible house gun IMO, unless your family members sleep with ear plugs on. You'd have a whole deaf family, all because daddy lit up the badguy with 30 rounds in 5 seconds that, although they killed the badguy 15 times, ruined the family's hearing for life. There are better ideas
What you aren't considering with the shotgun is that each round of buckshot is the equivalant of 12 or so rounds of 9mm, and if you can put one round where it counts the fight should be over. Also, if you can fire your shotgun 3 times in the span it takes the AR to fire 30, the round count is the same.
I'll take my shotgun, or a short barreled pistol caliber carbine in the house thank you.
" Lots of documentation of people surviving multiple COM handgun rounds at close range, I don't think there are any survivors of COM shotgun blasts..."
Uh well yes there are a few. Actually a surprising number of LE officers over the years have been unpleasantly surprised when a 12 ga did not render the subject to immediate inactivilty. At least that is what I have always read growing up. No weapons system is 100 percent - period
personally I have both types in rotation. The sad fact that if you are involved in a shooting generally means that the gun used to defend yourself will be lost. At least for a while if not forever. I have a hard time using my uber toys verses good standard cheap guns for home defense, I will hate to loose any of thm but to loose a 1200.00 or more gun to LE is as much of a crime as the other. I really want a shorty ar with a suppressor for such use but...
Truthfully a good argument can be made for the carbine as well as the shotgun. Personal choice brothers- that is what it is all about.
That and the fact that if ya can't handle the carbine use a shotgun
Uh well yes there are a few. Actually a surprising number of LE officers over the years have been unpleasantly surprised when a 12 ga did not render the subject to immediate inactivilty. At least that is what I have always read growing up. No weapons system is 100 percent - period
personally I have both types in rotation. The sad fact that if you are involved in a shooting generally means that the gun used to defend yourself will be lost. At least for a while if not forever. I have a hard time using my uber toys verses good standard cheap guns for home defense, I will hate to loose any of thm but to loose a 1200.00 or more gun to LE is as much of a crime as the other. I really want a shorty ar with a suppressor for such use but...
Truthfully a good argument can be made for the carbine as well as the shotgun. Personal choice brothers- that is what it is all about.
That and the fact that if ya can't handle the carbine use a shotgun
HorseSoldier
Member
True enough, but let's also be realistic about terminal ballistics -- putting a full spread of 00 Buckshot into someone, center of mass, at home defense ranges is about the same as putting nine rounds of 9mm into a chunk of his torso that can be covered by a human palm or two. A shotgun with buckshot is about the only weapon that (assuming you hit what you aim at) does not inherently demand controlled pairs to produce reliable stops, as a half-dozen or more .25-.36 caliber pellets into the chest is it's own controlled pair.
If each round fired with a shotgun puts 8+ holes in the target, and each round fired with a rifle or pistol puts one hole in the target, I'm thinking the equation at the receiving end is, at best, balanced, even with the recoil of the shotgun in the hands of most folks, if it does not, in fact, favor the shotgun.
Now, don't get me wrong, like you, I've been trained to use the M4, and that would be the weapon (or a civilian M4gery) I'd be most comfortable with if I ever happened to find myself in a home defense situation. But, I think you're really selling the shotgun much shorter than its capabilities at very close, inside-a-building sort of settings actually warrant.
A pistol caliber long gun is better than a 5.56????????? In what way? 9mm typically has much more penetration than a 5.56, and the 9mm isn't comparible at all to the damage 5.56 will do. Pistol rounds of any caliber cause what is called crushing wounds, basically meaning that the temporary cavity made by the round (FMJ or expanding) is almost non existant. The primary wounding mechanism is the permanent cavity that is caused by the tissue that the round displaces when it travels through flesh. With high powered rifle rounds, there is a substantial temporary cavity that is the primary wounding mechanism due to the fragmentation of the round. What occurs is the tissue surrounding the fragmenting bullet is torn, ripped, stretched and basically destroyed. The shotgun with 00 buck has basically the same wounding mechanism as the pistol, the temporary cavity. There will be several .32 caliber projectiles creating a permanent cavity through flesh. The buckshot does not have enough velocity to fragment or cause a significant temporary cavity.
Here's some illustrations of the rifle rounds wounding mechanisms taken from 10-8:
(the shaded area is the permanent cavity)
There is a good reason that the shotgun and SMG have fallen out of favor with many of our best SWAT/.mil people as primary weapons. There are simply better tools for the job.
As to the noise, get one of these:
Since fragmentation is the key to the wounding mechanism of the high powered rifle, my rifle and silencer pictured above are chambered for 6.8mm. I have opted to only practice with 5.56 because ammo is plentiful and cheap and I typically shoot in excess of 1,000 rds a month. While this is a fairly expensive setup to use for home defense, there are much cheaper ways to obtain something that will perform similarly. Also, I don't like putting a price tag on me and my families safety, I simply want the best tool I can find to defend myself.
Different strokes for different folks, but I use my 5 shotguns to kill birds, not anything else.
Here's some illustrations of the rifle rounds wounding mechanisms taken from 10-8:
(the shaded area is the permanent cavity)
There is a good reason that the shotgun and SMG have fallen out of favor with many of our best SWAT/.mil people as primary weapons. There are simply better tools for the job.
As to the noise, get one of these:
Since fragmentation is the key to the wounding mechanism of the high powered rifle, my rifle and silencer pictured above are chambered for 6.8mm. I have opted to only practice with 5.56 because ammo is plentiful and cheap and I typically shoot in excess of 1,000 rds a month. While this is a fairly expensive setup to use for home defense, there are much cheaper ways to obtain something that will perform similarly. Also, I don't like putting a price tag on me and my families safety, I simply want the best tool I can find to defend myself.
Different strokes for different folks, but I use my 5 shotguns to kill birds, not anything else.
dstorm1911
Member
LMAO!! O.K lets see one trigger pull of the AR equals 1 (one) .22 cal hole the same trigger pull of ANY 12 ga. loaded with 00 buckshot equals 9 (nine) .32 cal holes......... gee I can see where the AR out performs the 12 ga every single time......
ALOT of armchair commandoing, tell ya'll what why don't some of ya explain for me WHY when it comes to close quarters the military since WWI always went with a 12 ga pump gun? Vietnam tunnel crews were armed with a 1911 .45 or a sawed off 12 ga the M-16...... it stayed outside the tunnel because when ya don't have time to shoulder a rifle, the space to shoulder a rifle or the TIME to sight a rifle the .45 or shotgun was the best and prefered choice by those men entering a tunnel looking for the AK armed vietcon...... First gulf war what did we use for securing bunkers? uhhhh ohh yea it was a 12 ga Mossburg the M-16 again stayed outside pointed at the entrance..... uh what do we use in Iraq today for entry teams? ohhh yea a Benneli 12 ga semi auto I spose though that even as EVERY police cruiser in America has a 12 gaug either semi auto or pump gun onboard and a 12 gaug is ALWAYS the first thing through the door on felony warrant service all of the military and law enforcement in this country are dead wrong those soldiers who CHOSE the 12 ga for close quarters are all idiots and should have consulted THR pro's before ever actually entering a tunnel after an armed (with full auto AK47) guarila! What a bunch of idiots them tunnel rats were to pick by their own choice such an ineffective weapon.
Not to mention EVERY police SWAT team in the country sendin in a SBR 12 gauge as the first guy through the door as SOP!!! a bunch of fools I tell ya!!
AS far as penetration...... I can put a load of 00 shot through a 1967 chevy p/u windshield while the driver is doing 50 mph trying to run me and several others down at a range of 15 yards while 4 M-16s emptied their 20 rnd clips with zero effect (most rounds bounced off the safty glass) and 2 9 MM S&Ws had lil effect........ the Autopsy showed that the individual died from 5 double ought pellets to the upper face/head 2 pellets removed a 3" chunk of skull................. Happened in Salem, Oregon in sept 1983, 7 officers attempting to serve a fellony warrant on a Meth dealer found themselves under fire from the house while the suspect literally drove his custom 1967 pu right through the garage door attempting to ram his way through the officers stationed there........... the result of the incident cause the state of Oregon re-evaluate the effectivness of the 5.56 cal they went back to .308 chambered M-14s for a number of years as a result and the 00 loaded 12 ga Rem 870 has ever since been a mandatory piece of equipment in every cruiser even SWAT members have one to suppliment the M-16 in the trunk, the 12 ga rides in the passenger compartment ready for fast acess.
ALOT of armchair commandoing, tell ya'll what why don't some of ya explain for me WHY when it comes to close quarters the military since WWI always went with a 12 ga pump gun? Vietnam tunnel crews were armed with a 1911 .45 or a sawed off 12 ga the M-16...... it stayed outside the tunnel because when ya don't have time to shoulder a rifle, the space to shoulder a rifle or the TIME to sight a rifle the .45 or shotgun was the best and prefered choice by those men entering a tunnel looking for the AK armed vietcon...... First gulf war what did we use for securing bunkers? uhhhh ohh yea it was a 12 ga Mossburg the M-16 again stayed outside pointed at the entrance..... uh what do we use in Iraq today for entry teams? ohhh yea a Benneli 12 ga semi auto I spose though that even as EVERY police cruiser in America has a 12 gaug either semi auto or pump gun onboard and a 12 gaug is ALWAYS the first thing through the door on felony warrant service all of the military and law enforcement in this country are dead wrong those soldiers who CHOSE the 12 ga for close quarters are all idiots and should have consulted THR pro's before ever actually entering a tunnel after an armed (with full auto AK47) guarila! What a bunch of idiots them tunnel rats were to pick by their own choice such an ineffective weapon.
Not to mention EVERY police SWAT team in the country sendin in a SBR 12 gauge as the first guy through the door as SOP!!! a bunch of fools I tell ya!!
AS far as penetration...... I can put a load of 00 shot through a 1967 chevy p/u windshield while the driver is doing 50 mph trying to run me and several others down at a range of 15 yards while 4 M-16s emptied their 20 rnd clips with zero effect (most rounds bounced off the safty glass) and 2 9 MM S&Ws had lil effect........ the Autopsy showed that the individual died from 5 double ought pellets to the upper face/head 2 pellets removed a 3" chunk of skull................. Happened in Salem, Oregon in sept 1983, 7 officers attempting to serve a fellony warrant on a Meth dealer found themselves under fire from the house while the suspect literally drove his custom 1967 pu right through the garage door attempting to ram his way through the officers stationed there........... the result of the incident cause the state of Oregon re-evaluate the effectivness of the 5.56 cal they went back to .308 chambered M-14s for a number of years as a result and the 00 loaded 12 ga Rem 870 has ever since been a mandatory piece of equipment in every cruiser even SWAT members have one to suppliment the M-16 in the trunk, the 12 ga rides in the passenger compartment ready for fast acess.
GunnySkox
Member
I use my AR for my bedside gun, because I suck like a champion with my 1911, and because my shotgun beats me up (and I suck with it). Incidentally, I also suck with my AR, but not as much.
~GnSx
Suck-shot extraordinaire!
~GnSx
Suck-shot extraordinaire!
I've been present, over my 30-something years, for a .270 and a .44 Magnum ND inside. Not pleasant, and not good for hearing, but suggestions that a .223 going off inside= instant deafness are just ignorant.
Easy- that's not a true statement.
The infantry primarily uses the 12 gauge for breaching.John
redbone
Member
To step back on topic for a bit:
IN ORDER TO KEEP KIDS OUT OF FIREARMS, YOU MUST LOCK THE GUNS UP!!!
Locking up the rounds and mags is great... until they figure out that a single round can be loaded with out a mag. Do you have control of every single round in the neighborhood? Think about it. You've got to lock up the firearms.
The wall safe looks like a good idea. Keep a loaded mag inside with the AR or wahatever you choose. Learn how to unlock it as fast as possible.
Get a dog. That will give you a wake up and buy some time. You'll need it to get the safe unlocked.
I speak from experience here. I used to get into my Dad's guns when the folks weren't around. He thought he had them hidden in the bedroom closet. When my kids were little, everything was locked up. If they wanted to handle them, out they came, under my supervision. Nothing hidden, no mystery, and I got to drill them with the safety info everytime they handled the firearms. It worked for me. They are grown, have their own gunsafes, and we all survived. (And, they are now better shots than me).
IN ORDER TO KEEP KIDS OUT OF FIREARMS, YOU MUST LOCK THE GUNS UP!!!
Good luck, and stay safe.
RBH
IN ORDER TO KEEP KIDS OUT OF FIREARMS, YOU MUST LOCK THE GUNS UP!!!
Locking up the rounds and mags is great... until they figure out that a single round can be loaded with out a mag. Do you have control of every single round in the neighborhood? Think about it. You've got to lock up the firearms.
The wall safe looks like a good idea. Keep a loaded mag inside with the AR or wahatever you choose. Learn how to unlock it as fast as possible.
Get a dog. That will give you a wake up and buy some time. You'll need it to get the safe unlocked.
I speak from experience here. I used to get into my Dad's guns when the folks weren't around. He thought he had them hidden in the bedroom closet. When my kids were little, everything was locked up. If they wanted to handle them, out they came, under my supervision. Nothing hidden, no mystery, and I got to drill them with the safety info everytime they handled the firearms. It worked for me. They are grown, have their own gunsafes, and we all survived. (And, they are now better shots than me).
IN ORDER TO KEEP KIDS OUT OF FIREARMS, YOU MUST LOCK THE GUNS UP!!!
Good luck, and stay safe.
RBH
"LMAO!! O.K lets see one trigger pull of the AR equals 1 (one) .22 cal hole the same trigger pull of ANY 12 ga. loaded with 00 buckshot equals 9 (nine) .32 cal holes......... gee I can see where the AR out performs the 12 ga every single time......"
See illustration above, learn what projectiles do before you state things like that.
"..... uh what do we use in Iraq today for entry teams? ohhh yea a Benneli 12 ga semi auto"
We used shotguns to shoot doorknobs and hinges, not people. It is an entry tool, not even a secondary.
"Not to mention EVERY police SWAT team in the country sendin in a SBR 12 gauge as the first guy through the door as SOP!!! a bunch of fools I tell ya!!"
Not someone driving a shield armed with a pistol????? Are you sure about that
Also, I find it quite insulting to be called a keyboard commando. You don't know me.
See illustration above, learn what projectiles do before you state things like that.
"..... uh what do we use in Iraq today for entry teams? ohhh yea a Benneli 12 ga semi auto"
We used shotguns to shoot doorknobs and hinges, not people. It is an entry tool, not even a secondary.
"Not to mention EVERY police SWAT team in the country sendin in a SBR 12 gauge as the first guy through the door as SOP!!! a bunch of fools I tell ya!!"
Not someone driving a shield armed with a pistol????? Are you sure about that
Also, I find it quite insulting to be called a keyboard commando. You don't know me.
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dstorm1911
Member
John,
troops weren't useing em for breaching in the trenches of WWI nor WWII nor were tunnel rats breaching tunnels in Vietnam nor were we useing 12 ga for breaching bunkers in Desert Storm, The reason the Germans threatened death for any US Soldier captured with a 12 ga had nothing to do with opening doors but rather its devistating effect in close quarters, SWAT Entry teams load 1 breaching round the rest are 00 for after the door is opened. My Nephew curently (and has been for 2 years now) stationed in Iraq doesn't use his Benneli for breaching him and his fellow Marine's drop the M4 to sling and enter with the 12 ga leading the way into buildings etc... were time to accuratly aquire multiple targets that are fireing at you is very short..... Maybe in Aphgan they needa breach caves? The 12 ga isn't the best choice for open terrain combat and thats not where its intended to be used its intended for very close quarters such as those encountered in a HD situation and under those conditions it always gets picked first when available. The AR shines best at medium to extended ranges when time for proper target aquasition is available...
troops weren't useing em for breaching in the trenches of WWI nor WWII nor were tunnel rats breaching tunnels in Vietnam nor were we useing 12 ga for breaching bunkers in Desert Storm, The reason the Germans threatened death for any US Soldier captured with a 12 ga had nothing to do with opening doors but rather its devistating effect in close quarters, SWAT Entry teams load 1 breaching round the rest are 00 for after the door is opened. My Nephew curently (and has been for 2 years now) stationed in Iraq doesn't use his Benneli for breaching him and his fellow Marine's drop the M4 to sling and enter with the 12 ga leading the way into buildings etc... were time to accuratly aquire multiple targets that are fireing at you is very short..... Maybe in Aphgan they needa breach caves? The 12 ga isn't the best choice for open terrain combat and thats not where its intended to be used its intended for very close quarters such as those encountered in a HD situation and under those conditions it always gets picked first when available. The AR shines best at medium to extended ranges when time for proper target aquasition is available...
dstorm1911
Member
shark 3-1 show me any 5.56 that can make a 3" entry hole and dump the same energy as 1 oz of 00 does and seldom exits the target.
I do know a lil bout projectiles... just a lil
I do know a lil bout projectiles... just a lil
"troops weren't useing em for breaching in the trenches of WWI"
They were originally intended to be used for shooting grenades out of the sky before they landed in the trench. The pumps had better ergos than the bolt guns in close quarters,and that is the reason that they were used, not better ballistics.
"SWAT Entry teams load 1 breaching round the rest are 00 for after the door is opened."
Why not the typical three that we are trained to use for every breach? Most just use buckshot to breach anyway .
"him and his fellow Marine's drop the M4 to sling and enter with the 12 ga leading the way into buildings etc... were time to accuratly aquire multiple targets that are fireing at you is very short"
Why, to use a slower weapon when time is short?
"its intended for very close quarters such as those encountered in a HD situation and under those conditions it always gets picked first when available."
It ALWAYS get's picked? By who?????
They were originally intended to be used for shooting grenades out of the sky before they landed in the trench. The pumps had better ergos than the bolt guns in close quarters,and that is the reason that they were used, not better ballistics.
"SWAT Entry teams load 1 breaching round the rest are 00 for after the door is opened."
Why not the typical three that we are trained to use for every breach? Most just use buckshot to breach anyway
."him and his fellow Marine's drop the M4 to sling and enter with the 12 ga leading the way into buildings etc... were time to accuratly aquire multiple targets that are fireing at you is very short"
Why, to use a slower weapon when time is short?
"its intended for very close quarters such as those encountered in a HD situation and under those conditions it always gets picked first when available."
It ALWAYS get's picked? By who?????
Hm. Let's see: you, who I don't know, versus what I have seen with my own eyes. In my old infantry unit, we were issued Mossberg shotguns, which I helped the armorer install in folding stocks. These shotguns were used exclusively for breaching- the team or squad leader still carried his M4, as well.
When I was at Camp Phoenix, there were a few who carried shotguns on patrol- for dogs, since the range of shotguns is so much less than a 5.56mm.
Where I am now, I'm around the real-deal "high speed" guys, who have a wide variety of weapons they could use. I personally don't make any such claims- I'm just a regular infantryman- but I've seen what "operators" carry when hitting houses. Not shotguns!
John
"shark 3-1 show me any 5.56 that can make a 3" entry hole and dump the same energy as 1 oz of 00 does and seldom exits the target."
I do know a lil bout projectiles... just a lil
Well if you actually took the time to observe the above illustrations, you would understand:
A shotgun at typical HD ranges will actually group to about 1 1/2 inces and the pellets will exit with holes around 1/3 of an inch, all six of them. With rifles, the temporary cavity will be 4.3" with 5.56 and with 6.8 (what I use) the temporary cavity will be 5.7" with typical penetrations of less than 13". Most of the time your target is thicker than 13" and the round will deposit it's energy within the target. So if you want to use the argument above, you would have 2" of exit wound with your combined BB's, while my rifle round will have a cavity of destroyed tissue around 4.5-5.5" around.
I do know a lil bout projectiles... just a lil
Well if you actually took the time to observe the above illustrations, you would understand:
A shotgun at typical HD ranges will actually group to about 1 1/2 inces and the pellets will exit with holes around 1/3 of an inch, all six of them. With rifles, the temporary cavity will be 4.3" with 5.56 and with 6.8 (what I use) the temporary cavity will be 5.7" with typical penetrations of less than 13". Most of the time your target is thicker than 13" and the round will deposit it's energy within the target. So if you want to use the argument above, you would have 2" of exit wound with your combined BB's, while my rifle round will have a cavity of destroyed tissue around 4.5-5.5" around.
"Will you feel as good when the weapon and silencer are confiscated as evidence and MAY never actually come back to you? Just curious really. I have to make similar choices."
Yes, I will feel fine. Guns like that are completely replaceable, life is not. I just want the best tool for the job.
Yes, I will feel fine. Guns like that are completely replaceable, life is not. I just want the best tool for the job.
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