ar confusion! how to sort it out?

[dakotasin]

i've been flirting w/ the idea of getting an ar for over a year now. figure its time to break down and do it...

so, i ran searches, and was able to get it refined enough to only come up w/ 67 pages of threads... so please humor me if this has been asked umpteen times before, but the confusion is the main reason i don't have an ar yet.

after visiting manufacturer sites, i decided that a 16" a-3 handled bushmaster was what i wanted. so, i visited gunshop #1 today. they had that bushmaster on hand, but it had a camo'd stock. i really don't want camo on the rifle. nevertheless, the salesguy tells me that bushys are garbage, cheaply made, and that i would be worlds better w/ an olympic, and olympics cost less than bushy. they didn't have an olympic w/ the configuration i wanted.

so, off to shop #2. sales guy tells me that colt makes the best, but they didn't have any colts in. but, here's a 16" a-2 bushy, a 24" bushy w/ a weird pistol grip on it, and an a-3 bushy w/ a 20" barrel. i asked about olympic, and he said they are too expensive and offer nothing over a bushmaster, and that the olympic lowers are garbage.

ok... off to shop #3... salesman tells me that the 24" bushy flat-top is what i wanted. no olympics, and didn't carry olympic. i asked for a 16" a-3... didn't have it, only a 20", and that a 16" a-3 didn't make sense... carbines were better off open-sighted.

i do not want a heavy rifle. i want something light and maneuverable. i do not want garbage that will jam or break. i do not want an unfinished stainless barrel - i want it black.

i don't know if i want a chrome barrel or not. are they good, bad??

i don't know if i like 2-stage triggers. why are they better than a crisp single stage?

i don't know if i want a floating barrel. don't the aluminum handguards make the rifle heavy? does the regular plastic handguards pose an accuracy problem?

does an a-3 handle make sense on a carbine that will probably be scoped?

are there any concerns about getting a 16" barrel instead of a 20 or 24? i don't care about bullet velocity - i have plenty of bolt-guns that get velocity if that's what i need... afterall, 223's aren't all that fast anyway. i mean functional concerns?

what's the difference between bushmaster and olympic, anyway? what's the price difference (1 shop tells me bushmaster costs more, the other says olympic costs more)?

really appreciate any help here. i'm going nuts trying to sort thru it all... and i don't want to buy 1 lower and have 42 uppers laying around. i want 1 lower per upper...

 

[Rotty]

IMOHO

Olympics arent bad, but not as good as some others.

If it were me and cost didnt matter and i didnt want o build my own
i would go with a bushy or RRA.

My first choice would be to build though, i have built or help build several now, and all the owners are very happy with them.

I built a 16" carbine for about 600
friends all built varmint rigs, closer to 7 for those.

 

[Gary G23]

You might want to go to http://www.ar15.com or the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site for more info.
Everybody has an opinion. Here's mine.
There is nothing wrong with a 16" A3 configuration. I prefer 16" A2 but that is just me. I don't like optics.
The two brands that I would buy are Bushmaster or Rock River Arms.
I would choose the RRA for competition because it has a two stage trigger and an unlined barrel. Therefore better accuracy.
I would choose Bushmaster for ALL other purposes. Bushy has a single stage trigger (better for fast action), a 5.56 chamber (better reliability and able to use a wider variety of ammo), chrome lined barrel (easier cleaning and longer life), and 4150 barrel steel (able to get real hot before you lose accuracy).

 

[444]

It has pretty much been proven that Colt does more testing of their guns (such as magnetic particle testing) which in my opinion makes them the best AR15 out there. Second would be Bushmaster IMO.
I own all three brands you mention and that is the order I would buy in: Colt, Bushmaster, Olympic. There is nothing wrong with Olympic, in fact I own one: I just think that Bushmaster and Colt are better. But, an Olympic willl serve you just fine more than likely. None of the ones you mention are bad and odds are, you would never be able to tell the difference between them.

"i don't know if i want a chrome barrel or not. are they good, bad??"
Yes, you want a chrome lined barrel. This is the most durable, and reliable barrel. You also want it chambered for 5.56mm and not .223 Remington (this is a little larger and allows your carbine to reliably feed most any ammo out there. .223 is a shorter chamber with tighter tolorances which might be important if you are a target shooter). If it matters to you, the military uses a chrome lined chamber. In every thread like this, someone says that a chrome lined barrel and chamber give less accuracy, however I have yet to have anyone tell me just how much accuracy we are talking about. I have yet to have anyone tell me that they actually tested this internet theory and found that it was true. I KNOW that my chrome lined barrels will easily shoot under an inch at 100 yards right out of the box, so how much better would it be if it wasn't chrome lined ? I want real numbers based on real tests.

"i don't know if i like 2-stage triggers. why are they better than a crisp single stage?"
If you want a rugged carbine that would be suitable for it's intended purpose, you want a completely stock: mil-spec trigger. If you want to use the same trigger that has been used in REAL combat for over 30 years, stick with the bone stock trigger. If you want the trigger used by US Army Special Forces, Marine Corps. Force Recon and the Navy SEALS: use a bone stock trigger. If you want a guicci rifle that has every gimmick possible on it, get some kind of exotic trigger on it. If you shoot in gun games where the targets don't shoot back, worry about the trigger. It all depends on what you intend to do with the carbine. I have both: I have two SHTF type guns and then I have some hunting/target type guns. That i;s the beauty of the AR: you can have it your way.

" don't know if i want a floating barrel. don't the aluminum handguards make the rifle heavy? does the regular plastic handguards pose an accuracy problem?"
The floated barrel will make a difference in accuracy: a very small difference. One that only a very good shooter, shooting under ideal condtions can appreciate. Without knowing what you intend to do with your carbine it is hard to tell. If you are an NRA High Power shooter, then I would say you need to go with a floated barrel. If you are buying the carbine as a CQB weapon then I would go with the regular handguards and in the future consider adding something like a KAC RASII rail system which also free floats the barrel.

"does an a-3 handle make sense on a carbine that will probably be scoped?"
I don't know what you mean by a 3-Handle. No matter what you intend to do with the carbine, buying one with a detachable carry handle (also called a flat top) is definitely the way to go. It gives you the best of all worlds with no drawbacks. Buying a fixed carry handle severely limits what you can do with the gun and it offers no advantage to make up for it. If you get a flat top you can put a carry handle on it: you won't be able to tell the difference if you want to shoot with regular iron sights. However, if at some point you want to change your mind and use a scope, an optic, a night vision scope or whatever: you can take the carry handle off and switch sighting systems quickly and easily. It is possible to use optics with a fixed carry handle: it just isn't as convienient, or as practical. You end up with stuff like no cheekweld because the scope is way above you line of sight so you have to pick your head up off the stock to see through it. I can't see any good reason to limit yourself like that, but other people do.

No, there are no concerns with getting a 16" barrel. It makes a HUGE difference when you are having a discussion about it on the internet. In real life, it doesn't matter a whole lot. The military uses a 14.5" barrel and seem to get along very well with it (unless you ask someone on the internet).

If it matters to you, Bushmaster sells more AR15s than any other company. They sell more AR15s than most of the other companies combined.

 

[BryanP]

i've been flirting w/ the idea of getting an ar for over a year now. figure its time to break down and do it...

Congratulations. The only suggestion I might make is you wait another month & 1/2 for the Assault Weapons Ban to expire on Sept. 13, then you can avoid the whole pre-ban/post-ban BS. Of course, if you're buying a complete rifle and you don't care about items like a flash suppressor or a bayonet lug then don't worry about it either way.

Reading the rest of your questions ... Good Lord. Everyone has an opinion. And opinions are like you-know-what's. Everyone's got one and they all stink.

Olympic is well known for producing low to middle-end AR's. Bushmaster has an excellent reputation for quality. Just like any manufacturer I'm sure they turn out the occasional lemon. I suspect the guy who badmouthed them either:

a) Encountered a lemon.
b) Is repeating someone else's "wisdom."
c) Has a vested interest in selling you an Olympic over a Bushy.

As a general rule a Bushmaster is going to cost more than an Olympic.

Okay, next question. Length of barrel, A3 etc.. If what you want is a 16" flattop A3 with a detachable carry handle then buy one. That's the beauty of the AR - the variety. Here's a pic of Bushmaster's version of just that -

Next: Chrome-lined barrel vs Chrome-Moly barrel. Chrome-lining keeps the barrel from wearing out quite so fast. For the amount of shooting most of us do it doesn't matter either way. Me, I went with a chrome-lined barrel because I decided that's what I want. I have heard (note: not verified personally) that the process of chrome-lining a barrel makes it inherently less accurate than non-lined, but that the difference is something only super-accuracy match shooters are going to notice.

Standard is a single-stage trigger. If you decide you want to try a 2-stage trigger later it's not difficult at all to swap out the trigger assembly on an AR.

As someone else pointed out, go do some reading at ar15.com. I can also highly recommend a book called "The AR-15 Complete Owners Guide" by Walt Kulek & Scott Duff.

 

[c_yeager]

Good lord, you need to find some new gunshops!

Heres the deal. All the ARs currently produced by reputable manufactures are good rifles and are comparable in quality. There are people with prefrences for one brand or a dislike for another. And it all comes down to a "gut feeling" or minor differences between brands.

I am going to pull out what i think is the most relevant statement from your orinal post:

after visiting manufacturer sites, i decided that a 16" a-3 handled bushmaster was what i wanted.

Then thats what you should buy. You will not be satisfied with anything less than WHAT YOU WANT. There is not a dang thing wrong with a 16" "A3" type rifle. That is probably the most popular configuration among bigtime "evil black rifle" enthusiasts. There is no denying that Bushmaster makes good guns. Some people think Colt makes better guns, some people don't. But Bushmaster is certainly worthy of mention on virtually ANYONES list of the top 2 or three manufactures of AR-15s. You should find a shop that will ORDER THE EXACT RIFLE THAT YOU WANT. and buy it from them. And then buy ammunition, magazines, other guns etc. from that shop because THEY are the ones that are taking good care of their customer.

 

[Harry Tuttle]

Bushmaster has the production line that produces the greatest number of civilian AR15s per year.

Econ 101 tells us that there is an economy in scale.

In order to beat Bushies price point, most manufacturers cut corners.

Those HBAR barrels that most makers install, spend less time on the lathe, lack chrome lining and are made out of a lesser quality steel.

Anyone who thinks Olympic out shines Bushmaster is working on commision.

 

[Cato]

Go ahead and read this thread. Lots of valuable info here! Pat Rogers observes more rounds going downrange in a year than most of us in a lifetime. I guess you can follow his advice to go Colt, then Bushmaster.

You also may want to wait til mid-September until the assault weapons ban is gone and you get all the comfy features again (teleskoping stock, flashhider, 30 mags). Updating from a muzzle break & fixed stock will cost you about 150,- USD.

Look for post-ban versions of the Rock River Arms Tactical Entry and Colt M6400C. The former may be the best value while still featuring great (DEA proven) quality, the later the best quality flattop, chrome-lined, lightweight 16" M4 clone.

 

[dakotasin]

thanks fellas, i really appreciate it. these ar's are so confusing... there doesn't seem to be a standardized 'name' among the manufacturers, and in some mfgrs it is next to impossible to tell what the difference is between one version and another. yet there must be a difference because they will have a completely different model designation.

i haven't even considered rra... have yet to see one in the flesh.

as for my intended use... i expect to use the rifle for varminting, coyotes, targets, and informal br competition. but, i already have big, heavy bolt guns for hardcore stuff... so i guess its best use could be described as a 'walking varminter'.... i definitely don't want a heavy rifle, nor a 24" barrel. i want accuracy - i am an accuracy freak.

ok, so it is looking like the bushmaster is probably the best choice. the only thing that i am really thinking about now is the floating barrel. and judging from the responses, it appears that the issue is moot... as long as i can expect a reasonable degree of accuracy w/ standard handguards, i'll go w/ those because i like the way they look better.

 

[El Rojo]

Then go with a Bushmaster 16" A3 with optional carry handle. That way if you like iron sights, you leave the carry handle on. If you want a scope you can scope it. If you want a red-dot or a holo-sight, you can do that too.

The nice thing is this. Say you buy this gun and you decide you might like a 20" better. You can get on the Equipment Exchance at AR15.com and buy a nice Bushmaster 20" for $100 to $200 less than you will pay for it at Bushmaster. The uppers are not the serial numbered receiver that you have to go through a FFL for; you can have them shipped right to your door! So now you have a 20" upper you can play around with. If you like the 20" upper way more and don't want to mess with it anymore, sell it on the Equipment Exchange and use that money for something else.

Here is my slightly twisted (I am a PRK resident) walk into the AR world. I will take what I can get. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1152397#post1152397 Scroll to the bottom.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Lots of good advice in this thread..

I've got a free-floated KAC rail on my AR. It adds 5oz over the standard handguards with the rail covers on and 2oz without the rail covers.

However, as 444 mentioned, you will only see the accuracy improvement from fairly solid, stable positions like benched or prone. My average 5-shot groups dropped from about 1.5-2" to 1"-1.5" after I free-floated my 16"; but only in prone and benched. Sitting, kneeling and standing I didn't see any change because my own instability in those positions was greater than any benefit the float-tube could provide.

However it has been useful also in providing better barrel cooling, allowing easy attachment of accessories without changing the zero and minimizing the effect on barrel harmonics from different shooting positions.

I also like the A3 16" setup. One of the issues with a carbine length handguard is the short sight radius. Optics negate that issue and allow you to get excellent performance out of a 16" that will rival some of the longer barrels for accuracy.