AR triggers and accessories.

[Necessary_Nutrient]

I’d upgrade to Rock River Arms, Colt, Windham Weaponry, even consider BCM for the AR itself.

A simple, quality single stage like Hiperfire, velocity or even a mil-spec BCM Pnt, ALG or PSA EPT work well.

 

[halfmoonclip]

I even got an AUG trigger from 'really awful' to 'tolerable' with factory red springs. That thing was a challenge to shoot with the long, crunchy, draggy trigger. Also, mine is for NATO mags, which reputedly affects trigger pull.
But back on track; yes, a field trigger has to be like Baby Bear's porridge. I've an SSA two stage which meets that standard.
Moon

 

[gotboostvr]

As the OP can probably tell, trigger preferences are very subjective.

In my opinion, the standard GI trigger is fine. It's great, compared to most military rifle triggers in fact.

I prefer a nicer trigger though, and it's a pretty simple upgrade if you're handy with small parts assembly.

While I'm of the opinion the GI trigger dosen't need upgraded for most purposes, someone less experienced with triggers that are worse than the average commercial bolt gun, they'll benefit more from an upgraded trigger over someone who's familiar with and can shoot decently with garbage milsurp triggers. The latter will appreciate the upgraded trigger, but it will make a bigger difference for a less accustomed shooter.

... if that makes sense

All my center fire rifles, (AR's and bolt guns) have 2-stage triggers as I feel they offer the best compromise for bench and field use. But I wouldn't go hungry to upgrade a rifle with a GI trigger.

 

[BreechFace]

But I wouldn't go hungry to upgrade a rifle with a GI trigger.

Agreed, but I would go top ramen for lunch for a few weeks for one.

 

[mavracer]

As the OP can probably tell, trigger preferences are very subjective.

1000%

But I wouldn't go hungry to upgrade a rifle with a GI trigger.

I'm fat I could miss a meal or ten lol.

 

[cfullgraf]

For my AR-15 builds, I go for a two stage trigger set to Service Rifle specs. These days, I get a Giesselle. I get a premium barrel wth a bolt that is matched toi the chamber. Most barrel makers will provide that service., I get a fore end that free floats the barrel. Otherwise, I have had good luck with most notable suppliers of uppers and lowers.

I have no luck with plastic lowers, avoid them like the plague in my opinion.

I prefer longer barrel AR-15's, 20" barrels and up. No "mall nijas" for me. My main prairie dog rifle is a 26" side pull AR-15 chambered n 204 Ruger. A 12-13 pounds it is definitely a crew served prairie dog rifle. The side pull is interesting but not really necessary.

II do like an 18" barrel 300 Blackout for defense around the farm. It has a limited range that limits collateral damage. It hasbetter ballistics than 30 carsbine

 

[Justin]

Debating on buying myself a Christmas present (AR 15) and seeing how i know absolutely nothing about them i am seeking your advice. I went to a reputable shop today and spoke to their AR guy who shoots lots of competition with them and his suggestions was stay away from the M&P sport II due to loose tolerance, the next step up would be Ruger MPR or Springfield Saint. Was he just pushing more $$?

M&P sport ii comes with a vortex strikefire II for about $750. He says trigger is trash and needs upgraded and red dot is also not that great.

Springfield comes with a Vortex or Hex red dot, magpul flip sights, case and sling with one mag. The trigger on the Saint is also flat and breaks very light. I have read a lot of reviews saying stay away from the Springfield.

Ruger MPR just has a magpul forened and 2 stage trigger but i heard any parts are proprietary to that rifle. It does have a 20” barrel which could be better for bench shooting and hunting.

If i was going with a store bought package just for random plinking and coyote hunting what would be your pick? They can also order anything i want.

Shots max at 200-300yards. Of course i would scope it.

What scope rings would you suggest for a coyote hunting setup?

How about the triggers on both higher end rifles?

Most of the big gun makers are going to put together a decent rifle, and the price of quality ARs has really come down from where it was a few years ago. PSA has a reputation for being a good entry point for new AR owners, and I can somewhat agree with that, though they sometimes skimp on minor things like staking gas keys or have issues with tolerance stacking that can cause some issues. The Youtube channel School of the American Rifle has a good breakdown on a number of PSA rifles if you really want to get super nerdy about the engineering. That said, I've bought and used PSA rifles and found them to be generally just fine.

When it comes to ARs, there's a million different models made at different price points and for different uses. If you can swing the extra cost, I'd suggest looking at one of the rifles from Aero Precision, who are considered to be at the higher end of mid-tier ARs.

I wouldn't recommend the M&P Sport 2.

I'm not a coyote hunter, so I don't have any experience there, but here's what I've found works great for AR15s in over 20 years of shooting a lot of rounds through a lot of ARs, some of which I've built myself.

Practically a Requirement:
If you're going to get an AR and care at all about accuracy, get one that has a free-floated handguard. These handguards generally look like a hollow tube of metal or carbon fiber. If you are looking at an AR15, and look where the gas block is, a free-floated handguard won't make contact with the gas block, or anywhere besides where it attaches to the upper receiver. Free-floated handguards are one of the dead simple things that will make an AR15 shoot more consistently/accurately. The M&P Sport 2 doesn't have a free-floated handguard, and what this means is that if you rest the front of the rifle on a surface for shooting, the amount of pressure you put on that handguard can be enough to flex the barrel and cause the rifle to miss by a surprisingly wide margin. So if you're shooting off of a vehicle, rock, bench, rest, bipod, etc., the amount of flex imparted can be the difference between a hit or a miss, even at fairly close ranges (120 yards or more.)

The other thing that you should consider is a rifle that has a decent trigger. If you can't find a rifle with a good one out of the box, you can always buy one later and swap them out, it's an easy process. You don't have to go all out and drop $300 on a Geissele, there are plenty of good triggers available at reasonable costs. I've had good luck with the Rock River Arms two stage triggers which will give a consistent trigger pull of 4.5lbs and they cost around $100. Triggers from LaRue Tactical are not much more than that, as well as companies like Rise Armament, AR Stoner, etc.

Between a decent free-float handguard and a decent trigger, that will go a long way towards making consistent and accurate hits, and rifles with those features already built in to them are available.

Nice to Have:
The other feature you might care about would be bullet weight. If you reload or are very picky about what bullets you intend to use, you may want to look for a rifle with a twist rate that will do the best job of stabilizing your chosen bullet. You may also want to go with a rifle that has a heavy barrel (commonly called an HBar) as these will hold zero better, especially as the barrel heats up. The only downside is it makes the gun slightly heavier.

Barrel length is up to you, but for shooting at 300 yards, you should be fine with anything from 16" or longer. I've made hits on targets out of 16" guns out to about 500 yards. Longer barrels will give a little more velocity depending on the ammo, and will generally shoot flatter at longer ranges, but at 300 yards and under, we're talking a difference of a couple of inches of elevation.

A bipod would probably be helpful as well. There are a number of different choices out there, and if it's something you would use on a regular hunting rifle, you might consider it for coyotes.

A sound suppressor (silencer) is something you may also consider down the road, assuming they are legal to use for hunting where you live. One of these will make life easier for you, and will make your gunshots less likely to spook game.

 

[Justin]

This ^^^^^^. Every time this question comes up, everyone has a shopping list of things on their perfect build. It is well intentioned, but overwhelming.
(Ran into the same problem shopping for an E-bike; I was drowning in advice and minutiae.) .
For now, the op would do well to buy a quality rifle, shoot it until comfortable with the platform, and then make changes as needed.
I haven't been AR shopping for 20 years, but always went with the prancing pony myself.
Moon

The problem with this approach is that you pay the cost of a basic rifle to start with, and then you pay the cost for all of the upgrades you end up making, which will cost more in the long run. Better to just buy a rifle with at least the most commonly accepted upgrades to start with and then you don't have to worry about doing it down the road (unless you want to go the route of making updates yourself.)

 

[Justin]

My recommendation would be to start with mil-spec trigger, learn it. Then later on, swap it for a better trigger.

This is not good advice. If the entire point of marksmanship is to be able to consistently hit what you are shooting at, then you should work to reduce the things on the gun and in yourself that cause inconsistencies. Decent triggers are cheap to buy and easy to install, and are right at the top of the list of things that will make an immediate difference in how easy it is to shoot a rifle accurately and consistently. Assuming you're trying to make an ethical kill when hunting, I see no reason to stick with a bad trigger because it builds character or whatever.

 

[trackskippy]

A lot of the problem here is just what actually is a"bad trigger" and to whom, and why?

I personally don't find stock triggers on most things to be "bad" by any means, but I'm often told by others, that those same triggers are terrible and unshootable, and you couldn't possibly shoot well with them. Which, I never seemed to have any trouble doing. So what am I doing wrong?

I would say you need to be able to shoot any factory trigger reasonably well, and if you cant, then you need to address that. Gun companies don't make guns with crappy triggers on purpose, and I think 99% of the time, the reality is, the problem isn't with the gun, but with the shooter.

 

[Justin]

A lot of the problem here is just what actually is a"bad trigger" and to whom, and why?

I personally don't find stock triggers on most things to be "bad" by any means, but I'm often told by others, that those same triggers are terrible and unshootable, and you couldn't possibly shoot well with them. Which, I never seemed to have any trouble doing. So what am I doing wrong?

I would say you need to be able to shoot any factory trigger reasonably well, and if you cant, then you need to address that. Gun companies don't make guns with crappy triggers on purpose, and I think 99% of the time, the reality is, the problem isn't with the gun, but with the shooter.

Here, let's list some of the things that can constitute a bad trigger, since there seems to be some confusion:
- inconsistent pull/take up
- inconsistent break
- mushy takeup
- creepy
- rough or bumpy feel
- excessive overtravel
- excessive reset
- heavy


I can and have shot factory triggers when plinking, but also in competition settings including Service Rifle and 3 Gun matches. I made it work, but at the end of the day, fighting a crappy trigger made it harder to shoot small groups (Service Rifle) or to make fast and accurate hits and transitions on steel and paper (3 Gun.)

Switching over to something like a 4.5# National Match trigger tightened groups up measurably not only due to the lighter trigger pull, but also because the pull was much more consistent shot to shot due to having a 2 stage trigger. A tuned after market single stage trigger makes it much easier and faster to shoot close range paper targets, and removes one variable that impedes making fast hits and transitions on steel at distance (3Gun).

Note that I never described the factory GI triggers as "unshootable", they aren't, but why would you put yourself at a deliberate disadvantage when such an insignificant upgrade can make a significant positive change?

At the end of the day, if there wasn't an objective difference between a factory trigger and an after market upgraded trigger, you wouldn't see people using them in basically every shooting discipline.

 

[Necessary_Nutrient]

If 4.5 Lbs works for National match, the quality, consistent single-stage Mil-Spec triggers such as ALG, BCM PnT, and others will work reasonably well at around 6-6.5 for most shooting- even target shooting outside of the top echelons

 

[Justin]

If 4.5 Lbs works for National match, the quality, consistent single-stage Mil-Spec triggers such as ALG, BCM PnT, and others will work reasonably well at around 6-6.5 for most shooting- even target shooting outside of the top echelons

Sure. But a couple of things:
1.) 4.5# is the minimum trigger pull weight allowable by the rules for National Match/Service Rifle.
2.) While most people make a big deal about weight, it's not the only factor. A 5 or 6 lb. trigger pull isn't unacceptable, especially if it's solidly consistent in pull weight, and doesn't have any of the other issues I mentioned earlier.

For my money, a 4.5# two stage trigger hits a sweet spot for cost, market selection, and broad applicability. When you start going lighter than that, you're getting into territory that can be niche and expensive. Note that I didn't recommend that OP go out and buy a rifle with a 2# trigger pull.

 

[mavracer]

If 4.5 Lbs works for National match, the quality, consistent single-stage Mil-Spec triggers such as ALG, BCM PnT, and others will work reasonably well at around 6-6.5 for most shooting- even target shooting outside of the top echelons

When I bought it the ALG was $49 on sale and it had some creep, just didn't really feel like it was much of an improvement over the one in the Anderson LPK.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The problem with this approach is that you pay the cost of a basic rifle to start with, and then you pay the cost for all of the upgrades you end up making, which will cost more in the long run.

Point taken, and I'd agree that a trigger upgrade is a common change. It does beg the question how you can get the trigger you want in a turnkey package. As noted, haven't bought an AR in 20 years, so perhaps I'm wrong.
But if it takes you back to the 'build it yourself' business, that is what can overwhelm a newbie.
More, most of us have changed parts over time, because what we thought we wanted wasn't what we wanted.
Moon

 

[drobs]

This is not good advice. If the entire point of marksmanship is to be able to consistently hit what you are shooting at, then you should work to reduce the things on the gun and in yourself that cause inconsistencies. Decent triggers are cheap to buy and easy to install, and are right at the top of the list of things that will make an immediate difference in how easy it is to shoot a rifle accurately and consistently. Assuming you're trying to make an ethical kill when hunting, I see no reason to stick with a bad trigger because it builds character or whatever.

Oh pete-sakes, it's not that difficult to use a Mil-Spec trigger on an AR15. If it is you need to go back over the basics of rifle shooting.

I can't speak for the Navy, Coast Guard, or Air Force, but every single 18 year that joins the Army and Marines starts out with a Mil-Spec trigger.

 

[Justin]

Point taken, and I'd agree that a trigger upgrade is a common change. It does beg the question how you can get the trigger you want in a turnkey package. As noted, haven't bought an AR in 20 years, so perhaps I'm wrong.
But if it takes you back to the 'build it yourself' business, that is what can overwhelm a newbie.
More, most of us have changed parts over time, because what we thought we wanted wasn't what we wanted.
Moon

You are correct. Most rifles at the entry level or mid-tier point are sold with a milspec trigger, though I think PSA sells a few with their upgraded trigger.

But yeah, in most cases you're probably going to have to upgrade the trigger yourself, unless you specifically seek out a model with an upgraded trigger.

 

[Necessary_Nutrient]

When I bought it the ALG was $49 on sale and it had some creep, just didn't really feel like it was much of an improvement over the one in the Anderson LPK.

I’ve never found that objectionable in a quality 6-6.5 pound version of the upgrade mil-spec triggers as long as it is smooth and consistent . Standard triggers can be 8 or 9 pounds of gritty Inconsistency

 

[Legionnaire]

I'm with those who suggest a good trigger as a valuable upgrade. There are lots of options, both single and two stage.

After using a couple of mounts that cost a lot more, I've settled on Athlon Armor. I like that the attachment bolts are on left side where they don't interfere with my brass catcher.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Standard triggers can be 8 or 9 pounds of gritty Inconsistency

That was always my gripe; a clean, heavy trigger is tolerable, but that gritchgrunch bang thing is tough to handle. It's a simple enough mechanism; would it cost that much to make the MilSpec triggers at least a little better?
Seems it would be a selling point, just handling rifles in the shop.
Moon

 

[mavracer]

That was always my gripe; a clean, heavy trigger is tolerable, but that gritchgrunch bang thing is tough to handle. It's a simple enough mechanism; would it cost that much to make the MilSpec triggers at least a little better?
Seems it would be a selling point, just handling rifles in the shop.
Moon

Why would you put a better trigger in the 4-500 dollar gun just when the profit margin is already tight, when you can up sale them on the 9-1000 gun with all the upgrades that really only add 200 or so to the cost of manufacturing, especially when @drobs wants a creepy heavy mil spec trigger and others that'll spend $65 to $70 to put a little better trigger in a budget gun.

 

[entropy]

Do your research. I say your research, because asking us is going to give a lot of personal experience, true, but also the bias conditioning that goes with it. Research each trigger and part you want to customize, and find out if it it will do what you require of it.
If you want a stock milspec trigger, most the base models come with that. I personally can shoot them just fine as is for the use most carbines get used for. I have a Rise Armament 140 in my AR rifle because my dad foisted it upon me, and it works fine. Certainly better than milspec. My personal opinion is if you can't get decent groups with a Geissle, (I've shot several ARs with them in) it's you who needs the improvement, not the trigger. Nothing wrong with the aforementioned LaRue trigger either.

 

[Justin]

Oh pete-sakes, it's not that difficult to use a Mil-Spec trigger on an AR15. If it is you need to go back over the basics of rifle shooting.

I can't speak for the Navy, Coast Guard, or Air Force, but every single 18 year that joins the Army and Marines starts out with a Mil-Spec trigger.

Just to set the record straight:
I have made first-round cold-bore hits out of a rifle at nearly 1,000 yards. I have made a first round hit with a 16" AR15 on a steel target at 550 under national match conditions with the clock running. I've gone 1-for-1 on 4MOA steel targets at 50 yard increments out to 500 yards in national match conditions, I've cleared stages with long range shots that required hits on steel to 400 yards in a blustery 20mph crosswind, and I've placed reasonably well at 3Gun matches where some of the best shooters in the world have attended. I have volunteered for over ten years as an RSO for local Tactical Rifle matches that require competitors to shoot targets from improvised shooting positions in field conditions at distances out to 300+ yards, and I have taken an elk at over 200 yards with a standing offhand shot.

I say all of this not to brag, but as a point of reference for whether or not I need to "go back over the basics of rifle shooting." That said, I've seen what the best shooters in the world can do, and none of them are running rifles with milspec triggers.

Regarding 18 year olds in basic training, yes, they're required to qualify with rifles with mil-spec triggers on standard courses of fire, but that's a base level of marksmanship set by Uncle Sam that is constrained by the cost and time needed to train large numbers of people with varying levels of experience to handle a rifle safely. As an example, a friend of mine who served in the US Army told me about his experience with rifle qualification in Basic Training. The rifle he was issued had a barrel with a bend in it that was bad enough that even cranking the sights to one side did not bring the rifle in to zero. He was told the barrel was fine to qualify with the rifle anyway. Being a country boy who grew up shooting rifles, he used Kentucky windage to be able to meet the qualification requirements. He was able to adapt to a crappy rifle and meet the goal in spite of his equipment. Just because he was able to do so does not mean that everyone should have to use rifles with bad sights or bent barrels. Similarly, if you are in a situation where you can use a rifle that's better than mil-spec, there's no reason not to do so, as a tuned rifle removes impediments to good marksmanship and a consistently good platform enables a shooter to much more easily diagnose and address issues they may have with technique, and will ultimately help the shooter to be a better marksman. This becomes even more important in the hunting context that the original poster stated, where making clean and ethical kills is preferable.

 

[Justin]

That was always my gripe; a clean, heavy trigger is tolerable, but that gritchgrunch bang thing is tough to handle. It's a simple enough mechanism; would it cost that much to make the MilSpec triggers at least a little better?
Seems it would be a selling point, just handling rifles in the shop.
Moon

PSA sells their enhanced, polished fire control group, which is basically just a mil-spec trigger with some additional polishing and a nickel coating. They aren't terribly expensive. That said, I don't know if they include that trigger as a standard one in any of their off-the-shelf rifles.

 

[trackskippy]

When I bought it the ALG was $49 on sale and it had some creep, just didn't really feel like it was much of an improvement over the one in the Anderson LPK.

After seeing so many people insisting the lower end single stage Geisslle triggers were so great I decided to try one and see what I was missing. I think I got it on sale for $80 or so.

I swapped them out and really couldn't tell the difference between the one I took out that had been shot a lot, and theirs. If anything, theirs had more crunch in it, and down the road, I eventually cleaned it up with some others and wrote the wasted money off. It was "OK" as it came, but I wouldn't waste the money on one, and that one was on sale for a good bit off to boot. Dont remember what they were going for normally, but that's just even more insult.

My biggest issue and worry with a lot of these tuned aftermarket triggers is, are they safe for anything but bench or static recreational type shooting? From the sounds of what some seem to think is necessary to be able to shoot well with, I would have to wonder if they were. And that goes for handgun triggers as well, not just rifle triggers. Do you trust them and/or yourself with them, in a loaded gun that gets actual use and handling and the banging around that goes with that?

I’ve never found that objectionable in a quality 6-6.5 pound version of the upgrade mil-spec triggers as long as it is smooth and consistent . Standard triggers can be 8 or 9 pounds of gritty Inconsistency

Ive never thrown a scale on any of mine, but I seriously doubt they are 8 or 9 pounds. My auto pistols triggers are all factory and my Glock triggers (5.5# connectors) really don't feel much different than my stock AR triggers. So what? 5-6 pounds? At least by "feel".

As Ive said before, the only thing that I find to be annoying with some of the stock triggers is the "crunch" that some seem to have. And if you're dry firing and shooting a lot, that usually goes away before too long, depending on how crunchy it is.

Lately if there is crunch in there, Ive taken to just polishing the triggers and sears with a Dremel and a felt tip with some light polishing compound and clean things up a little. About 5 minutes work, a dab of copper anti sieze on the sear after, and you have a nice, smooth trigger with a clean break and you havent compromised anything or changed the weight.