AR15 + other guns and unneeded assortment of attachments
- Thread starter SilentStalker
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OrvilleYertleson
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- Nov 20, 2003
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A lot of people certainly go overboard with the accessories.
However, certain accessories have been proven time and again to be helpful when the chips are down. CCO's come to mind.
The military does use white lights mounted on their weapons. But the neat thing about them is that they can be turned off. That way they don't give away your location when you are on patrol, but you can see what you are doing when you are conducting a raid on a dark building, or clearing a kill zone. Weapons lights are particularly usefull to homeowners who need to be able to quickly identify whether an intruder is a threat or not.
You are right about it being silly to mount a 1000 yard scope on a close quarters weapon, but you also have to play the hand you are delt. If you have an m-4 type weapon and you want to shoot longer distances then a scope may be entirely appropriate even though you don't have the optimal platform for extended ranges. ACOGS, incidentally, make reasonable reflex sights and can be used effectively for close quarters, while the reverse is not true for any dedicated CCO's. A person with an m-4 and an ACOG may have simply decided to compromise.
However, certain accessories have been proven time and again to be helpful when the chips are down. CCO's come to mind.
The military does use white lights mounted on their weapons. But the neat thing about them is that they can be turned off. That way they don't give away your location when you are on patrol, but you can see what you are doing when you are conducting a raid on a dark building, or clearing a kill zone. Weapons lights are particularly usefull to homeowners who need to be able to quickly identify whether an intruder is a threat or not.
You are right about it being silly to mount a 1000 yard scope on a close quarters weapon, but you also have to play the hand you are delt. If you have an m-4 type weapon and you want to shoot longer distances then a scope may be entirely appropriate even though you don't have the optimal platform for extended ranges. ACOGS, incidentally, make reasonable reflex sights and can be used effectively for close quarters, while the reverse is not true for any dedicated CCO's. A person with an m-4 and an ACOG may have simply decided to compromise.
Rob96
Member
I think one of the best combos to come down the pike, is a carbine with 1x-4x scope. Keep it on low for close in, and you can ramp it up for 2- 300 yd shots. I believe this was the concept of the recce carbines NSWG had in mind.
lightweight
Member
My last optic purchace,Nikon 1.5-4x.Love it!
Thin Black Line
Member
SS,
I was in Iraq for a year and many soldiers would appreciate the rig that
ZS had posted in his picture --minus the large flashlight (a G2 or a
little Streamlight would work fine). I kept a small pressure switch light
on my Mossberg 12g. We typically didn't run around with the "light on" to
give away our position, but it was certainly needed to id a target to avoid
shooting a friendly when it's pitch black out. People here in the USA take
an artificially lit environment for granted. Check out the lighting in your
subdivision next time there's a power outage.
Personally, I would stick with a the fixed carry handle rear site (A1 or
A2) and co-witness a dot (Aimpoint or Trij) either from a foreend rail
or a quality handle mount that sets the optic over the forend. If you're
going to use irons as a back-up, then they're ready to go without being
flipped up. Most people prefer the vertical fore-grip once they've used
them. Lasers are nice for lo/no-lite (and for when you don't want to
turn on a flashlight) and are absolutely SURE of your target. But, quite
frankly, unless you're getting a $500 military laser, most of them will
not last outside of your safe and the occasional trip to the range. It
may work on day 1 of SHTF (which may be enough), but not by day 3
when it's been knocked around a bit. That said, I even have a cheap
laser on mine, but I'm under no illusion that it's fragile and train with
my irons and trij. I wouldn't even bother taking the cheap laser on a
deployment since it would probably be broken before I got on a C-130.
Think quality, durability, and speed to use it when you need it.
I was in Iraq for a year and many soldiers would appreciate the rig that
ZS had posted in his picture --minus the large flashlight (a G2 or a
little Streamlight would work fine). I kept a small pressure switch light
on my Mossberg 12g. We typically didn't run around with the "light on" to
give away our position, but it was certainly needed to id a target to avoid
shooting a friendly when it's pitch black out. People here in the USA take
an artificially lit environment for granted. Check out the lighting in your
subdivision next time there's a power outage.
Personally, I would stick with a the fixed carry handle rear site (A1 or
A2) and co-witness a dot (Aimpoint or Trij) either from a foreend rail
or a quality handle mount that sets the optic over the forend. If you're
going to use irons as a back-up, then they're ready to go without being
flipped up. Most people prefer the vertical fore-grip once they've used
them. Lasers are nice for lo/no-lite (and for when you don't want to
turn on a flashlight) and are absolutely SURE of your target. But, quite
frankly, unless you're getting a $500 military laser, most of them will
not last outside of your safe and the occasional trip to the range. It
may work on day 1 of SHTF (which may be enough), but not by day 3
when it's been knocked around a bit. That said, I even have a cheap
laser on mine, but I'm under no illusion that it's fragile and train with
my irons and trij. I wouldn't even bother taking the cheap laser on a
deployment since it would probably be broken before I got on a C-130.
Think quality, durability, and speed to use it when you need it.
Some good stuff already posted here. Especially the point about the people who are really using these weapons in harms way usually arn't using a bare bones, stripped down rifle: they have white lights, they have optics, they have lasers. One must assume that they find them useful and worth lugging around, and again, they are actually lugging them around unlike most of us commenting on the weight of the weapon.
Weight seems to be the big issue. I regularly read comments like, "You are taking what was supposed to be a lightweight carbine and making it as heavy as an M14 (or something to that effect), if I was going to carry something that heavy, I would just carry an M14"
Ok, first of all, who said it is supposed to be a lightweight carbine and who defines what weight is light ? Second, if you put on an optic, and a white light, a vertical foregrip etc and it weighs as much as an M14 you are still way ahead of the game. Because the M14 doesn't have an optic or a white light, or any of the other stuff. With one, you have a short carbine with some very useful accessories and with the other you have a long bare bones rifle with a tiny peep sight which is very useful on a range in daylight and less useful inside a building in the dark. And, I would much rather fight in close quarters with a short carbine than a big long battle rifle regardless of weight. Lastly, who says that if you really need a weapon, that you will have a selection of them to choose from ? Making the statement, "If I was going to carry something that heavy, I would just take an M14 (or whatever)" assumes that you have that choice. You have a golf bag there with all your clubs in it. In reality you run what you brung. That one rifle or carbine has to do it all. Obviously, no one weapon will do it all, so you have to make it do what you believe your primary mission is very well and other stuff OK.
Reality (something not often dealt with on this board) seems to indicate that the rifle or carbine will be used at relatively short range for defensive or military purposes. Why ? First of all, beyond a couple hundred yards the enemy is not as much of a threat. As civilians, we have very few reasons to shoot at another person from long range. Second, unless the guy is standing out in the middle of a freshly mowed field, he will be hard to see past a couple hundred yards: if he is a threat he will probably be using cover and concealment, wearing clothes that blend into the background, and doing his best to not provide you with an easy shot. People doing these things are hard to see. Third, in many environments it is hard to see more than a couple hundred yards. For example, if I was defending my own home against the hordes, I can't see more than maybe 100 yards: buildings and walls block my vision further than that. Woods, jungle, rolling terrain etc. provide the same problem. This isn't to say that it is impossible to find a place in the woods where you can see further than that, it just isn't the norm. You set your rifle up for the norm and hope for the best when something that is out of the norm presents itself. When ranges are short, speed becomes a huge factor. You need a sighting system that is as fast as possible. You also need a sighting system that works in low light or preferably, no light. Iron sights not the best choice for these purposes. A dot optic has proven to be the choice for low light and the laser with night vision gear the best for no light.
This brings us to optics. First of all, most of this discussion assumes that we are using this carbine or rifle for defensive or military use. There are plenty of people who are varmint hunters or paper punchers that use AR15s and big optics are exactly what the doctor ordered for them. But, for defensive purposes, optics also have their place. On the range, you can set up a silhouette at 200 yards and it is very easy to see. You should be able to place your shots into the "A" zone pretty consistently at 200 yards with iron sights. But enemies usually don't present themselves like this. Now imagine a man at 200 yards that is behind cover and the only thing visible is what he has to expose to fire. His head, shoulder, one arm and one hand. This target is much smaller, much harder to see, and much harder to hit. Do you think an optic might help here ?
Weight seems to be the big issue. I regularly read comments like, "You are taking what was supposed to be a lightweight carbine and making it as heavy as an M14 (or something to that effect), if I was going to carry something that heavy, I would just carry an M14"
Ok, first of all, who said it is supposed to be a lightweight carbine and who defines what weight is light ? Second, if you put on an optic, and a white light, a vertical foregrip etc and it weighs as much as an M14 you are still way ahead of the game. Because the M14 doesn't have an optic or a white light, or any of the other stuff. With one, you have a short carbine with some very useful accessories and with the other you have a long bare bones rifle with a tiny peep sight which is very useful on a range in daylight and less useful inside a building in the dark. And, I would much rather fight in close quarters with a short carbine than a big long battle rifle regardless of weight. Lastly, who says that if you really need a weapon, that you will have a selection of them to choose from ? Making the statement, "If I was going to carry something that heavy, I would just take an M14 (or whatever)" assumes that you have that choice. You have a golf bag there with all your clubs in it. In reality you run what you brung. That one rifle or carbine has to do it all. Obviously, no one weapon will do it all, so you have to make it do what you believe your primary mission is very well and other stuff OK.
Reality (something not often dealt with on this board) seems to indicate that the rifle or carbine will be used at relatively short range for defensive or military purposes. Why ? First of all, beyond a couple hundred yards the enemy is not as much of a threat. As civilians, we have very few reasons to shoot at another person from long range. Second, unless the guy is standing out in the middle of a freshly mowed field, he will be hard to see past a couple hundred yards: if he is a threat he will probably be using cover and concealment, wearing clothes that blend into the background, and doing his best to not provide you with an easy shot. People doing these things are hard to see. Third, in many environments it is hard to see more than a couple hundred yards. For example, if I was defending my own home against the hordes, I can't see more than maybe 100 yards: buildings and walls block my vision further than that. Woods, jungle, rolling terrain etc. provide the same problem. This isn't to say that it is impossible to find a place in the woods where you can see further than that, it just isn't the norm. You set your rifle up for the norm and hope for the best when something that is out of the norm presents itself. When ranges are short, speed becomes a huge factor. You need a sighting system that is as fast as possible. You also need a sighting system that works in low light or preferably, no light. Iron sights not the best choice for these purposes. A dot optic has proven to be the choice for low light and the laser with night vision gear the best for no light.
This brings us to optics. First of all, most of this discussion assumes that we are using this carbine or rifle for defensive or military use. There are plenty of people who are varmint hunters or paper punchers that use AR15s and big optics are exactly what the doctor ordered for them. But, for defensive purposes, optics also have their place. On the range, you can set up a silhouette at 200 yards and it is very easy to see. You should be able to place your shots into the "A" zone pretty consistently at 200 yards with iron sights. But enemies usually don't present themselves like this. Now imagine a man at 200 yards that is behind cover and the only thing visible is what he has to expose to fire. His head, shoulder, one arm and one hand. This target is much smaller, much harder to see, and much harder to hit. Do you think an optic might help here ?
One of the best gun related inventions ever was the Picatinny rail.
Shortly followed by various throw lever mounts for stuff.
The ability to change your mind, and quickly reconfigure your weapon, is incredible. In the past when you decided to scope a rifle you no longer had access to iron sights. Most sporting rifles do not come with them, since mounting a scope blocks them. Attaching a flashlight was a semi permanent job, and if it broke or the batteries died you had a weight on your weapon that required tools to remove.
My carbine is not pretty, with a walnut stock and polished blue finish, it is a tool like the other ones I can throw in the back of my truck and get some real use out of.
Pretty rifles have their place, but so do the useful tools.
Shortly followed by various throw lever mounts for stuff.
The ability to change your mind, and quickly reconfigure your weapon, is incredible. In the past when you decided to scope a rifle you no longer had access to iron sights. Most sporting rifles do not come with them, since mounting a scope blocks them. Attaching a flashlight was a semi permanent job, and if it broke or the batteries died you had a weight on your weapon that required tools to remove.
My carbine is not pretty, with a walnut stock and polished blue finish, it is a tool like the other ones I can throw in the back of my truck and get some real use out of.
Pretty rifles have their place, but so do the useful tools.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
Weaponlights,
Note: I never said weaponlights offer no use at all, just no use for me, and I'm on defense. If I had to kick doors down for a living, I would have a weapon light.
I don't use a weapon light because I don't need it, and it adds weight and bulk. Here's why I don't need it:
Home defense scenario. My home is 2,600sq/ft. Aside from double pane hurricane windows whch would require smashing, there are 3 ways in. Side garage door, front door, back door. Back door is most vulnerable, but it too would need it's glass broken. If I am alerted in time, I will grab either my pistol or my AR. If AR, I won't even have time to turn on my Aimpoint (I leave it off despite the 50,000 hr battery life)...There's even an AK in my safe I can grab (safe stays open when I am home, safe is in my bedroom). I'm going to stay in the bedroom with a weapon calling the police. If they come through the door, I will empty my magazine at them. I don't need a weaponlight to aim at the door or to guarantee hits. (There's also enough ambient light from electronics that it is not a 100% pitch black scenario, although that isn't a substitute for light, I know in my environment I can direct fire at the target successfully) I won't hunt for the thug in my living room. He/they can have my electronics, that's what insurance is for. Florida law protects me in this situation if my "target identification" isn't exactly perfect. I doubt that though, because who the hell is going to physically force their way into my home by either breaking a door, window, or tearing into a lock..then proceed to go throughout my home till they get to my door? A senile person isn't going to do that. A drunk person isn't going to do that. If it is someone out of their mind due to drugs or whatnot, then they deserve to be shot because whatever the motivation (motivation is not MY problem), they are committing a a felony.
Hurricane disaster scenario. In this situation (which can happen) I must defend my property from looters. I can do this at night or during the day without a weaponlight. Again, I am on defense. I know my land, I know my house, I know my neighborhood. Depending on the condition of the home, I'll choose where in my home I will station myself. I have family in the area, and being that I live on the highest ground, they will bring their arms too and if need be, we can run shifts. People who aren't up to no good have the common sense not to go around to people's houses and start sneaking around or breaking in, especially at night.
Riot scenario: Mass outbreak of some riot/looting for w/e reason you can think of. This can happen at night or day. I'm assuming there would be mass vandalism, arson, breaking and entering, and assault and battery of anyone caught outside. These things don't happen often in neighborhoods, mostly in commercial property areas, but say it poors into my 'hood', I will be ready, and do not need a weaponlight to protect myself or my home. Fortunately, riots only run a finite amount of time. I can stay up and alert the whole time.
Those are the 3 big reasons. Now, If I were a police officer, or I put it in my head that when something goes wrong, I need to clear a room, search for a perp, or I make the decision that I will commence with an offensive move...then a weaponlight will come in handy. That I do not deny. At that point in time YOU are actively seeking ENGAGEMENT, so who cares what the light does as far as giving away your position. It will help because you'll be illuminating your target for quicker "resolution" of the situation.
The people who are defending the use of weaponlights said it themselves in this thread "if you have to clear an indoor structure in low-light." ...why would I need to clear an indoor structure? Not part of my defensive plan.
Note: I never said weaponlights offer no use at all, just no use for me, and I'm on defense. If I had to kick doors down for a living, I would have a weapon light.
I don't use a weapon light because I don't need it, and it adds weight and bulk. Here's why I don't need it:
Home defense scenario. My home is 2,600sq/ft. Aside from double pane hurricane windows whch would require smashing, there are 3 ways in. Side garage door, front door, back door. Back door is most vulnerable, but it too would need it's glass broken. If I am alerted in time, I will grab either my pistol or my AR. If AR, I won't even have time to turn on my Aimpoint (I leave it off despite the 50,000 hr battery life)...There's even an AK in my safe I can grab (safe stays open when I am home, safe is in my bedroom). I'm going to stay in the bedroom with a weapon calling the police. If they come through the door, I will empty my magazine at them. I don't need a weaponlight to aim at the door or to guarantee hits. (There's also enough ambient light from electronics that it is not a 100% pitch black scenario, although that isn't a substitute for light, I know in my environment I can direct fire at the target successfully) I won't hunt for the thug in my living room. He/they can have my electronics, that's what insurance is for. Florida law protects me in this situation if my "target identification" isn't exactly perfect. I doubt that though, because who the hell is going to physically force their way into my home by either breaking a door, window, or tearing into a lock..then proceed to go throughout my home till they get to my door? A senile person isn't going to do that. A drunk person isn't going to do that. If it is someone out of their mind due to drugs or whatnot, then they deserve to be shot because whatever the motivation (motivation is not MY problem), they are committing a a felony.
Hurricane disaster scenario. In this situation (which can happen) I must defend my property from looters. I can do this at night or during the day without a weaponlight. Again, I am on defense. I know my land, I know my house, I know my neighborhood. Depending on the condition of the home, I'll choose where in my home I will station myself. I have family in the area, and being that I live on the highest ground, they will bring their arms too and if need be, we can run shifts. People who aren't up to no good have the common sense not to go around to people's houses and start sneaking around or breaking in, especially at night.
Riot scenario: Mass outbreak of some riot/looting for w/e reason you can think of. This can happen at night or day. I'm assuming there would be mass vandalism, arson, breaking and entering, and assault and battery of anyone caught outside. These things don't happen often in neighborhoods, mostly in commercial property areas, but say it poors into my 'hood', I will be ready, and do not need a weaponlight to protect myself or my home. Fortunately, riots only run a finite amount of time. I can stay up and alert the whole time.
Those are the 3 big reasons. Now, If I were a police officer, or I put it in my head that when something goes wrong, I need to clear a room, search for a perp, or I make the decision that I will commence with an offensive move...then a weaponlight will come in handy. That I do not deny. At that point in time YOU are actively seeking ENGAGEMENT, so who cares what the light does as far as giving away your position. It will help because you'll be illuminating your target for quicker "resolution" of the situation.
The people who are defending the use of weaponlights said it themselves in this thread "if you have to clear an indoor structure in low-light." ...why would I need to clear an indoor structure? Not part of my defensive plan.
Once I set the money aside and decide what I want, I personally am investing in a light with mount, a good 3 point sling, and a non magnifying optic for my AR. It's part of the whole reason I wanted to get into the rifle is that it readily accepts these 3 accessories, and I think it's what will make the rifle a complete weapon system versus a slugthrower.
Heck even if I decide not to get the optic, since I have a flat top, I have my choice of any iron sights I want.
At a bare minimum a defensive rifle should have a good sling. A sling is an integral part of the rifle, or it should be. I don't see why an optic is the end of the world either.
I can understand not wanting a weapon light, heck I don't want one they're expensive and not really practical for a lot of us, but it's perfectly affordable and useful to get a mount that you can put something like a Surefire G2 in. If nothing else that's one more bright flashlight you have handy in case you need a light but not the rifle for some reason.
Heck even if I decide not to get the optic, since I have a flat top, I have my choice of any iron sights I want.
At a bare minimum a defensive rifle should have a good sling. A sling is an integral part of the rifle, or it should be. I don't see why an optic is the end of the world either.
I can understand not wanting a weapon light, heck I don't want one they're expensive and not really practical for a lot of us, but it's perfectly affordable and useful to get a mount that you can put something like a Surefire G2 in. If nothing else that's one more bright flashlight you have handy in case you need a light but not the rifle for some reason.
Deer Hunter
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4,097
Funny, because that's how I learned to shoot!
It's nice to have options, and that's what these weapon systems are all about. Having the option to make your gun adapt to various situations is a great tool in a combat situation. You don't see the need, that's fine. We'll respect that, but in return respect those who do add ten pounds of tactical accessories to their weapon.
+1. it really depends on what you are using the rifle for. Figure that out then build the weapon for that. That is my (utilitarian) approach.
My M4gery is intended to be a general purpose defensive weapon. That means HD and SHTF duty. So it's set up with a quad rail, VFG, ACOG, BUIS, and single-point sling. The VFG (not actually on there in the picture) gives me better control of the weapon during rapid fire, the FF rail gives me a place to attach the VFG, the ACOG gives me increased precision and faster target identification/acquisition with no batteries to replace or switches to manipulate, the BUIS gives me a back up, and the sling is, well, fairly obvious. I may still put a light on it. I don't have anything else on it because I don't believe it needs anything else on it. Anything else would be a waste of money and weight for the intended purpose of this weapon. Now some might (and some do) argue that the odds of having to use such a weapon are so low, why bother with all the extras. My response is that in a life-or-death situation I want the best tool for the job. Others argue that since they used to walk 5 miles uphill both ways to the range in 2 feet of snow to shoot a plain rifle through iron sights that iron sights on a plain rifle are good enough. I don't assume that just because something has been around in it's current form for a couple decades that it's current form is necessarily the best form for every possible application.
Having written all that, contrast my carbine with my A2 rifle. It's a range plinker. Nothing more, nothing less. Hence it is totally stock. Its stock form is great for its role.
My M4gery is intended to be a general purpose defensive weapon. That means HD and SHTF duty. So it's set up with a quad rail, VFG, ACOG, BUIS, and single-point sling. The VFG (not actually on there in the picture) gives me better control of the weapon during rapid fire, the FF rail gives me a place to attach the VFG, the ACOG gives me increased precision and faster target identification/acquisition with no batteries to replace or switches to manipulate, the BUIS gives me a back up, and the sling is, well, fairly obvious. I may still put a light on it. I don't have anything else on it because I don't believe it needs anything else on it. Anything else would be a waste of money and weight for the intended purpose of this weapon. Now some might (and some do) argue that the odds of having to use such a weapon are so low, why bother with all the extras. My response is that in a life-or-death situation I want the best tool for the job. Others argue that since they used to walk 5 miles uphill both ways to the range in 2 feet of snow to shoot a plain rifle through iron sights that iron sights on a plain rifle are good enough. I don't assume that just because something has been around in it's current form for a couple decades that it's current form is necessarily the best form for every possible application.
Having written all that, contrast my carbine with my A2 rifle. It's a range plinker. Nothing more, nothing less. Hence it is totally stock. Its stock form is great for its role.
nvshooter
member
Correia...
I feel like I've been bitch-slapped by your first response-- and I didn't start the thread. Thanks; good post.
I have just a simple, little, 3-9X NcStar scope on my CAR, and it's way to high above the bore...
I feel like I've been bitch-slapped by your first response-- and I didn't start the thread. Thanks; good post.
I have just a simple, little, 3-9X NcStar scope on my CAR, and it's way to high above the bore...
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