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AR15 recommendation

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Liquid Metal, Aug 28, 2012.

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  1. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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    I have shot an AR-15 several times and ready to buy one. When I talked to several gun sellers, one in particular told me that AR-15 are all very similar for the exception for impingement vs piston firing. Otherwise, it is more or less for the name brand. Is this true? Which one would you recommend for a piston? I have contacted LMT and they have responded very informatively.

    I know most people will recommend a 5.56 nato but what about a 7.62x39 (AK round) or 7.62x51 nato?

    What will I be using it for?
    -Target practicing
    -Gun Collecting
    -Home Defense (although my shotgun probably would come first)
    -etc...

    Thanks
     
  2. Sky

    Sky Member

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  3. Captains1911

    Captains1911 Member

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    7.62x39 ARs have a reputation of not feeding as reliability.

    Piston....meh....it just adds a bunch of more expensive, proprietary moving parts to replace a single lighter-weight reliable part, while at the same time adding front-end weight, changing the recoil characteristics, and creating bolt carrier tilt potential. Sure it may be a little cleaner, but direct impingement ARs run reliably when dirty, so what's the point?

    Not all ARs brands are equal, don't buy into that.
     
  4. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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    "7.62x39 ARs have a reputation of not feeding as reliability." AK rounds are so cheap to buy. :)

    That is good info on the piston as well. So both are recommending to go with impingement?
     
  5. Warp

    Warp Member

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    If you intend to use it for defensive purposes my personal recommendation is to look into a Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM (bravo company manufacturing, or Noveske). Basically $1,000-$1,400, depending on what you get, for a basic rifle.

    LMT makes pretty good rifles.

    I would get DI. The AR was designed as and intended to be DI, and it works just fine. Buy a quality rifle, lube the BCG (bolt carrier group) properly, use GOOD magazines, use ammo that isn't crap, and it should do whatever you need it to do.
     
  6. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    It isn't just the name brand. There are differences, but most people don't care to know, don't know, or it isn't a critical aspect in their decision-making. Chances are the gun store will poo-poo anything they don't carry and tell you how great their stocked brands are.

    You're still wide open. Need to narrow it down with budget and what kind of hardware you're going to run on it. A home defense rifle tends to be small, simple, and light. Target shooting is a wide category, which can mean close-up target shooting or long distance target shooting, where the AR's run 20" bull barrels and magnified optics which aren't suitable for home defense.
     
  7. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    I wouldn't go with anything other than 5.56 for my first/only AR-15.

    7.62x39 has issues in the AR platform from the increased case taper causing feeding problems in the straight mag-well to the opened up bolt having durability issues.

    .308/7.62x51 isn't an AR-15 but rather an AR-10. Larger and heavier all around. There are also 2 different designs in that size rifle that do not have interchangeable parts.

    Piston systems aren't needed and are all proprietary. They do add weight, but I wouldn't say that they alter the balance appreciably and don't alter the recoil impulse at all (speaking from experience shooting the exact same rifle both as DI and piston) nor do they have a practical effect on accuracy. The current designs don't have problems with carrier tilt either. There's nothing "wrong" with either piston or DI. I own and shoot both and enjoy shooting both. I don't have reliability issues with either.
     
  8. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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    very good information and deductive reasoning so far. Thanks!!!

    What else beside DI and Piston??? Understood caliber...
     
  9. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    The problem with piston designs is that everyone has their own little twist on it, while the AR15 DI system is essentially being executed identically by every manufacturer since the inception of the design almost half a century ago. You're basically depending on a small pool of piston AR15 rifles made by one particular brand name being run hard enough by a small minority of the buyers for problems to rear their ugly heads and shake out.

    The vast majority of rifle buyers don't purchase them and run a thousand rounds through them a month or through one sitting. Most people buy a rifle and run a few boxes through their rifle every time they hit the range, which might be once a month or once a year depending on their collection. That's not to say there aren't perfectly reliable and awesome piston systems...you're just dealing with a tiny pool of rifles (relatively speaking, compared to the entire AR market) because every company has their own proprietary piston design.
     
  10. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    The AR isn't a direct impingement system and has a piston which is a part of the bolt
    [​IMG]
    What the so-called "piston" uppers do is move the piston from the BCG to the gas block and add an op-rod. They are heavier, have more parts, add offset recoil forces and are costlier. Op-rod uppers do not run cooler. Same amount of heat is generated. Inline piston (what folks erroneously call a "DI" system) carriers and bolts don't get very warm. Both rifles get hot at the gas block. Guess what? The op-rod upper has it's piston right where the rifle gets hot and that's also where it the carbon build up goes.

    After several hundred rounds in a single afternoon, the FSB (gas block) got hot enough to turn water into steam. The carrier & bolt barely got warm
    [​IMG]
    If curious as to what an actual direct impingement system looks like, look up the Ljungman rifle
     
  11. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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    MistWolf, the gun owner showed me that part today in the green picture.

    As for the rest of your previous post, can you translate? :)
     
  12. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Well, that is the correct name for it anyway, since it was first used successfully on the French MAS 44, MAS 49, and yes, the Ljungman series of military rifles.

    Those, and the AR-15, M16, and M4 are all Direct Impingement designs.

    You might want to read up on it a little more.

    rc
     
  13. TurtlePhish

    TurtlePhish Member

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    If you're okay with the .223/5.56mm cartridge, I say get a Colt 6920 and be done with it.
     
  14. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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  15. TurtlePhish

    TurtlePhish Member

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    Nothing wrong with Del-Ton, they make good stuff. I've seen long waiting periods on their stuff, though. Last year I remember most of their uppers had a 4-8 week wait.
     
  16. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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    Thanks TurtlePhish

    The gun seller that I spoke today laid a Delton and a Ruger right next to each other. Handles, stock and rail are different. He told me that other than that, they are very similar to each other. He even took apart and showed the part (not the piston) in the image above.

    He shared that if you buy a Colt, you are buying like a Mercedes and if you buy a Delton, you are buying like a Toyota. It is just name brand but both will get the job done. If that is true, then I am going to research into Delton (Direct Impingement). Will avoid 7.62x39 (AK round) rounds as recommended and lean toward 5.56 nato. :)

    Thanks everyone!
     
  17. RainDodger

    RainDodger Member

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    I was assimilated and contracted the black rifle disease a couple of years ago. I figure the piston thing is nice if you're going to be firing full auto for a while, but I think it's added weight and complexity, for a rifle that is simple, reliable, and functions well as designed. DI is just fine for me and I have multiple. To be fair, I have no piston rifles - other than a Browning BAR in .243, which is kind of different... but a piston rifle just the same.

    As for brand.... it is my recommendation that you simply stick to one of the better-known brands recommended here. Colt certainly, Noveske, BCM, etc. Not many have recommended S&W, but I have to tell you - I have one and its fit and finish is better than the Colt. I would not hesitate to buy another. In fact, the S&W Sport is a fantastic buy - if you can find one. No dust cover, no forward assist, but hey, do you need those? Maybe not. Just a thought. It's half the price of many others and it sure puts them down-range in an accurate manner with its 5R rifling and melonite hardness treatment. Just sayin'....

    Buy an AR, buy a bunch of ammo and have some fun.
     
  18. Quentin

    Quentin Member

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    Liquid Metal, if you're looking at a Del-Ton then also look at PSA, I think you get a better rifle for the money.

    MistWolf gave you good information above. While we can argue what the true definition of direct impingment is (and he may expand on his post as you requested) I think the main point for you to take from his advice is the the beauty, simplicity, economy and light weight of the in-line bolt/piston vs. the offset push rod design like the Ruger you saw.

    Some people like to keep the chamber and bolt area cleaner with a "piston" design but it really doesn't affect reliability. If your AR isn't suppressed or under 14.5" then a "DI" version is a smart buy.
     
  19. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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    Thanks Rain.

    Can you provide the website to PSA, Quentin?

    The only advantage that I have heard so far that made me think twice for a piston is that the gun seller told me "DI" is not reliable after submerged in water. I don't plan to go swimming with it but that just stood out for a second when he shared the information with me.
     
  20. Warp

    Warp Member

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    I would not buy a del-ton.

    If I was going to take a step down from the "Top Tier" companies I'd probably look at a PSA or a S&W M&P15. Or perhaps a Stag. But not a del-ton, not a bushmaster, not a DPMS. But that's just me.
     
  21. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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    Can you be more specific Warp? Is it the quality or is it the accuracy?
     
  22. Warp

    Warp Member

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    It's the lack of a reputation for reliability and durability, as far as I am aware.

    I don't recall seeing anything particularly against them, though. I'd have to take a closer look if one in the right middle ground pricerange presented itself and that's what I was shopping for

    Any experience with one of these?

    http://www.del-ton.com/DTI_Extreme_Duty_316_p/extreme316.htm

    The above looks good. PERSONALLY, though, if that's how much they go for on the street, I'd buy a Colt/DD/BCM...but they might go for less than that on the street?
     
  23. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    I did my research, including digging up the original Stoner patent. Stoner himself states his gas system is not a direct impingement system. The AR system is different than the Ljungman system in that it uses a piston in the carrier rather than a simple cup that takes gas directly from the gas tube
     
  24. JFtheGR8

    JFtheGR8 Member

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    I like my Del Ton but I don't have the round count through it to give an honest review plus it's my first and only AR. Not being a stranger to firearms, the fit and finish are good. I did have to wait and I'm sure they are probably backed up again with elections coming up. You mentioned LMT: If they are within your budget why would you look at middle to lower tier anyway? My next AR will be a Daniel Defense.


    Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
     
  25. Liquid Metal

    Liquid Metal Member

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    Why would I look at middle to lower tier? Well, if it is just for name brand like Mercedes vs Toyota, I am fine living with a Toyota. :)
     
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