Are AK-type weapons (and 7.62X39) viable for LEO patrol?

[Teufelhunden]

Last time I was at the range I was shooting my SKS next to a guy that was shooting his 20"bbl AR. I was shooting jacketed 123grn 7.62X39, he was shooting 62grn M855 surplus 5.56X45. We were both shooting at a line of steel plates about a foot square and about 2 inches thick sitting on a railroad tie. I was shooting in from the left, and he was shooting in from the right. After I dropped the first three plates, I glanced over at his side and saw that he hadn't knocked any down yet. I had been hearing the 'ping' on his rounds impacting the plates, but all were still standing. I stopped shooting and looked at his plates with my spotting scope and noticed that as he hit them, they just kind of rocked back a litte. He had to shoot each plate 2 or 3 times to 'walk' it off the railroad tie whereas my SKS was dropping the plates with haste.

This got me thinking. At the risk of turning this into a rifle version of the 9mm vs. .45 debate, what do you all think of the viability of the 7.62X39 as a law enforcement patrol caliber as opposed to the ubiquitous 5.56X45? There are a lot of opinions going both ways about the effectiveness of 5.56X45 against human targets, but I think it telling that the military is shifting towards the 6.8SPC. Since availability and financial reasons preclude my purchase of an AR in 6.8SPC, 7.62X39 struck me as an awfully similar cartridge.

My sheriff's office allows deputies to carry personally owned rifles in their cars as long as they qualify with them. I'm a former Marine that never qualified as anything but expert with my rifle, so it's fair to say I'm familiar with the AR-15 series of weapons. However, since I'm no longer under the constraints of being required to use an issue weapon, how do you think a high-end AK would stack up against an AR? I found this KTR-03S made by Krebs Custom that seems to address a lot of the things that I don't like about the AK. The sights are improved, it's got rails, and the safety's in a more accessible spot. At the list price, it doesn't cost any more than what a comparably accessorized AR would cost, maybe even less. And it's in a cartridge that has twice the weight of standard 5.56 loadings. My only concern would be using this heavier bullet in an indoor situation which would bring up overpenetration issues. Does anyone make a tactical/frangible 7.62X39?

So given typical law-enforcement scenarios, I've not yet been able to come up with any way the Krebs would be less able than an AR. What do you all think? Is the Krebs a better tool, or am I looking for an answer without a question?

-Teuf

 

[c_yeager]

For all practicle purposes i would say that there is no reason why you couldnt use an AK based rifle for this application. However, in the real world, i dont think its a great idea. I prefer AKs myself, but i have to admit that they kinda scream "bad guy", which might work significantly to your disadvantage in a confused situation.

 

[GlocksRock]

Glaser makes a frangible 7.62 load, but it's expensive.

 

[ID_shooting]

I see no reason why you couldn't. There are a few political and PR reasons why you shouldn't. You think the tin-foil hat boys are paranoid now, wait till they see U.S. LEOs knocking on doors w/ AKs. The AK has been associated with the "enemy" for so long that the average person sees them as "commie guns" "terrorist guns" "high-powered assult weapons" "gang-banger guns" the list could go on and on.

Personally, I like the round, I keep an SKS just in case a SHTF situation pops up, albeit unlikely, you just never know.

 

[jobu07]

So given typical law-enforcement scenarios

I think you put it pretty well right there. There isn't really any reason that you'd need the larger cartridge, I think, given your typical BG vs. Police scenario. However, if an unconventional scenario arose, say... BG wearing a vest or something, a .223 would punch through it just the same as the 7.62. Now, if they are hiding behind 2" thick steel plates, then the AK might be the order of the day as you saw But, I don't think you'll ever encounter such an instance. If you did, it's not something you would want to tackle without some back up anyway. This is just MHO, so take it for what it is worth.

 

[BigG]

There is also the fact that the typical AK 47 with its protruding magazine is about as handy to tote as a stick of firewood. That and the 11" length of pull makes it kind of unergonomic to me.

 

[Crosshair]

Personaly I would go with 7.62x39.

1. It is better than 5.56 at the expence of more weight, recoil and long range trajectory. Though with training, none are a significant issue.
2. You are breaking the "AK's are evil" steriotype.
3. Less maintance required with AK. Perfect for a trunk gun that might go unused for extended periods.
4. From PERSONAL experience, 7.62x39 seems to penitrate hard targets like car doors and windows better. Though in all faireness there where lots of holes in the car already.

Again, go with what you are comefortable with.

 

[armoredman]

Just curious - your are intimately familiar with the AR platform, but want 7.62x39 - isn't there a 7.62x39 AR out there?

 

[ALASKACAJUN]

I don't think it would be necessary to carry the larger caliber. My reason is simple. Not too long ago, a few friends and I went to the nearest "Rambo Range." When we arrived we found a refrigerator that someone had left. One of my buddy's put one of those Matt Kenseth lifesize cardboard posters up against it. Then they proceeded to blow the heck out of it with my AR and AK. On the "on" side of the fridge you could tell the 7.62 from the 5.56 easily. But it was on the off side that really surprised me. There were all these really small pock marks where the 5.56 had tried to penitrate the metal, but couldn't. The 7.62 had blown big holes out the back... My point? If I had my choice of either I don't think I would want the liability of my bullet traveling through the neighborhood... I would much rather a caliber that would stop a little quicker than the 7.62... Just my $.02...

- Clint

 

[Commissar Gribb]

it may be prudent to experiment with different cartridge/round types in 7.62 to avoid instances of overpenetration.

 

[George S.]

The AK may not "look" right as a rifle for patrol duty, but it should certainly do the job as well as a more "traditional" AR rifle in situations where a rifle would be needed. AR's are also available in .308 so maybe that would be something to consider if firepower is an issue. If you want to stay with the 7.62x39, then maybe a Ruger Mini-30 would be a possible alternative from the standpoint of appearance but still have the caliber you want.

I would be curious to see what the city prosecutor's may say about an LEO with an AK-type rifle for "official" use. If there was a shooting situation that could have some defense attorney crying about how the police used an evil commie assault rifle, that may be a concern to the city.

 

[benEzra]

An AK with a collapsible AR-style stock, aftermarket pistol grip, new forend furniture, Ultimak rail w/red dot or holographic sight, and 20-round magazine looks a LOT like an AR to someone who isn't familiar with guns, if that's a concern. Check out some of the "AKM4" threads on THR.

 

[Correia]

Or if you are really concerned about over penetration with 7.62x39, get a .223 AK.

The people who are going to really freak out about how it is an evil communist AK probably wouldn't know the difference betwen an AK and an M4 anyway. Get a .223 Vepr, put the Ultimak rail system on it, and the Robarm's adapter to use a collapsible M4 stock, and the only people who are going to know it is an AK are us gun folks who will just think it is cool.

 

[ETCss Phil McCrackin]

Perhaps an AK type would be seen by the public as "scary" or "terrorist". But I think it would be a tremendous PR and political victory aganst the Brady bunch and their allies if several small depts or a couple large depts started using them. It invariable lends credability to anything when that thing has gained acceptance with a major LE orginization, like "Glocks" or ".40 S&W".

 

[chevrofreak]

"Or if you are really concerned about over penetration with 7.62x39, get a .223 AK."

Wasnt the point of this thread about getting away from the dinky little .223?

 

[Correia]

Hey man, I like them both.

I do know of one small department that uses AKs as a patrol rifle. Smithfield, Utah, uses Veprs.

 

[Steve in PA]

Several years ago my dept decided to add rifles, along with shotguns to our vehicles. However, due to monetary constraints there was no way we could afford AR's.

On a side note, I have completed the paperwork for buying government surplus M16A1's (got the approval back last week) and hopefully we'll be adding a few of them to our dept.

Anyway, we went with the SKS's in our vehicles. Wood stocks and bayonets were removed. Replaced the stocks with synthetic monte carlo type stocks and have been using them ever since. One of my guys actually had to use it a couple of years back on a barricaded/domestic type situation. The guy lived (he was shot but lived) and nothing was brought up about being shot with a commie assualt rifle.

There is nothing wrong with the 7.62x39 cartridge. For normal police/partol duty it works just fine.

 

[Powderman]

+1 on use by LE.

Like someone else said earlier, it would do well to help remove the evil assault weapon connotation commonly hung on arms of that type.

I think I would go with a few mods, though. First of all, I think that something like the Ultimak mount with a good dot sight would be the way to go. I have a milled receiver Nork AK that will keep them on a sheet of typing paper at 50 yards, even though the front sight assembly is flopping on the barrel. I managed to tighten the sight up a bit once, and shot a really tight 10 round group at 50 yards.

The SKS, now, that's a different story. I have found them to be very accurate--at least accurate enough for use on the street. The only mod I'd do is to try to fit it with some type of folding charging handle.

Training ammo would be a snap--and not so much of a ding on a department budget. The rifles themselves (SKS) could be had for right around $100.00 each. Easy to maintain, and a ton of repair parts.

 

[Crosshair]

I have to say that the SKS would be an interesting idea. You would probably not need more than 10 rounds in the average situation. If you do, stripper clips are easy to use. In the head of battle, if you forget you're round count, that bolt locking back will let you instantly know you are empty just like you're pistol. With an AR you don't find that out until you pull the trigger on an empty mag. You could also spend less on the rifles and more on training and ammo. (Heck, you could buy each officer their own so they can practice on their own time.) My SKS is quite accurate with the cover scope mount, though you must do it correctly.

 

[ID_shooting]

"With an AR you don't find that out until you pull the trigger on an empty mag."

Dude, you AR is broken if it doesn't lock back on empty. With the spring right next to you ear it goes like this:

su-shing, su-shing, su-shing, su-shing, su-shing, su-shing, shunk, time to reload

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

hey Crosshair,

What kind of AR do you have that doesn't lock back after the last round?

edited to say: Dang!I was beat to it!

 

[Crosshair]

Hm, my bad. I thought that both the AK and AR don't have bolt hold open devices.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

the AK may look out of place in uniformed patrol, which is why it has in some circles become a favorite of undercover cops.

if a BG sees an AK it isn't going to scream "cop." one guy i know has an AK krinkov pistol in his detective car. he drives around the area buying dope all day and if a BG sees the AK it generally doesn't phase him.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Given the replies here regarding the heavier 123gr round causing concern about overpenetration, how do the 5.45X39 and 5.56X45 stack up against each other? That Krebs is also available in 5.45--does the hive mind think that this would be a more suitable round for urban use where I have to account for my shots?

I've also got a reasonably accurate SKS, but those Yugos are awfully long should the need arise to go indoors...

-Teuf

 

[Onmilo]

All I'm going to say is that AK/AKM type rifles are used by Police and Security Forces all over the world, Iraq being one of the most recorded instances at this time.
Russian Police and Security Forces still use AKM-74 rifles though AN-94 rifles are supposedly available for issue to them.

The AK=AKM are used with satisfactory results. many law enforcement personnel being quite familiar with the design.