I was just thinking about the overpenetration. If a BG is behind cover, a few shots with a more powerful cartridge might end the situation where a smaller cartridge might require a number of shots, this increasing the likelihood of an incocent getting hit. Any thoughts on that? I am certainly not an expert.
Are AK-type weapons (and 7.62X39) viable for LEO patrol?
- Thread starter Teufelhunden
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crofrog
Member
If steel pentration is an issue a pentrating round could be used but in general I think the fragmenation of the .223 in general makes it better suited for LEO use.
Also compare the wound profiles
120gr 7.62x39:
65gr 5.56 NATO M855:
On the Russian 7.62x39 round
"The typical path through the abdomen caused minimal disruption; holes in organs were similar to those caused by a non-hollow-point handgun bullet. The average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound with minimal intervening muscle disruption."
On the Yugo 7.62x39 round
"Since this bullet would be travelling sideways through most of its path in an abdominal wound, it would be expected to cut a swath over three times the dimension made by the bullet travelling point forward. In addition to the larger hole in organs from the sideways-travelling bullet, the tissue surrounding the bullet path will be stretched considerably from temporary cavitation. Actual damage from the stretch of cavitation can vary from an almost explosive effect, widely splitting a solid organ such as the liver, or a hollow one such as the bladder if it is full at the time it is hit, to almost no observable effect if the hollow organs (such as intestines) when hit contain little liquid and/or air. The exit wound may be punctate or oblong, depending on the bullet's orientation as it struck the abdominal wall at the exit point. The exit wound could be stellate if sufficient wounding potential remains at this point on the bullet path. The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctate but the exit wound will probably be stellate, measuring up to 11 cm from the tips of opposing splits. The stellate exit wound results from the temporary cavity simply stretching the skin beyond its breaking point. These stellate wounds generally bleed very little. Small-to medium-sized vessels are certainly cut or torn, but the temporary cavity tearing action generally stimulates the tiny muscles in the vessel walls to constrict and clots will form in their open ends, limiting blood loss. Being wide open, these wounds tend to drain and heal amazingly well even in situations of limited surgical resources. This increased tissue disruption of the leg will, of course, temporarily limit the mobility of the person hit to a greater extent than wounds causing less tissue disruption."
on the 5.56 NATO round
"The effects of this bullet in the abdomen shot will show the temporary cavity effects as described for the Yugoslav AK-47 and, in addition, there will be an increased tissue disruption from the synergistic effect of temporary cavitation acting on tissue that has been weakened by bullet fragmentation. Instead of finding a hole consistent with the size of the bullet in hollow organs such as the intestine, we typically find a hole left by missing tissue of up to 7cm in diameter (see permanent cavity in Fig. 4). The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctate. The first part of the tissue path will show minimal disruption. The exit will vary from the small punctate hole described for the Soviet AK-47 to the stellate exit described for the Yugoslav AK-47, depending on how thick the thigh is where the bullet perforates it. In a sufficiently thick thigh, the M193 bullet fragmentation is also likely to cause a significant loss of tissue and possibly one or more small exit wounds near the large stellate one."
The whole article these quotes where taken from may be found here:
http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html
I think the 5.56 round is one of the better rifle rounds for although it doesn't compare to
.308 Winchester JSP
Images taken from http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
This being said when shooting in an enviroment like LEO's do I would be very worried about over penetration issues and would also like to insure that they are delt the most fatal wound possible to ensure they die.
Also compare the wound profiles
120gr 7.62x39:
65gr 5.56 NATO M855:
On the Russian 7.62x39 round
"The typical path through the abdomen caused minimal disruption; holes in organs were similar to those caused by a non-hollow-point handgun bullet. The average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound with minimal intervening muscle disruption."
On the Yugo 7.62x39 round
"Since this bullet would be travelling sideways through most of its path in an abdominal wound, it would be expected to cut a swath over three times the dimension made by the bullet travelling point forward. In addition to the larger hole in organs from the sideways-travelling bullet, the tissue surrounding the bullet path will be stretched considerably from temporary cavitation. Actual damage from the stretch of cavitation can vary from an almost explosive effect, widely splitting a solid organ such as the liver, or a hollow one such as the bladder if it is full at the time it is hit, to almost no observable effect if the hollow organs (such as intestines) when hit contain little liquid and/or air. The exit wound may be punctate or oblong, depending on the bullet's orientation as it struck the abdominal wall at the exit point. The exit wound could be stellate if sufficient wounding potential remains at this point on the bullet path. The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctate but the exit wound will probably be stellate, measuring up to 11 cm from the tips of opposing splits. The stellate exit wound results from the temporary cavity simply stretching the skin beyond its breaking point. These stellate wounds generally bleed very little. Small-to medium-sized vessels are certainly cut or torn, but the temporary cavity tearing action generally stimulates the tiny muscles in the vessel walls to constrict and clots will form in their open ends, limiting blood loss. Being wide open, these wounds tend to drain and heal amazingly well even in situations of limited surgical resources. This increased tissue disruption of the leg will, of course, temporarily limit the mobility of the person hit to a greater extent than wounds causing less tissue disruption."
on the 5.56 NATO round
"The effects of this bullet in the abdomen shot will show the temporary cavity effects as described for the Yugoslav AK-47 and, in addition, there will be an increased tissue disruption from the synergistic effect of temporary cavitation acting on tissue that has been weakened by bullet fragmentation. Instead of finding a hole consistent with the size of the bullet in hollow organs such as the intestine, we typically find a hole left by missing tissue of up to 7cm in diameter (see permanent cavity in Fig. 4). The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctate. The first part of the tissue path will show minimal disruption. The exit will vary from the small punctate hole described for the Soviet AK-47 to the stellate exit described for the Yugoslav AK-47, depending on how thick the thigh is where the bullet perforates it. In a sufficiently thick thigh, the M193 bullet fragmentation is also likely to cause a significant loss of tissue and possibly one or more small exit wounds near the large stellate one."
The whole article these quotes where taken from may be found here:
http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html
I think the 5.56 round is one of the better rifle rounds for although it doesn't compare to
.308 Winchester JSP
Images taken from http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
This being said when shooting in an enviroment like LEO's do I would be very worried about over penetration issues and would also like to insure that they are delt the most fatal wound possible to ensure they die.
KaceCoyote
Member
Yet again, the 7.62x39mm round tested there is not the standard AK bullet weight. I'd bet a six pack that the 154 grain softpoint, or some modern hollowpoint would do FAR better.
Remember because of the surplus market there isnt the massive drive from the aftermarket to develop more accurate, better expanding, more wounding ammunition for the 7.62x39mm as there is for the 5.56x45mm.
These tests are thusly, quite skewed in my mind. For these to be particularly worthwhile the 5.56 and the 7.62 should have a similar FMJ design and THEN be tested.
Remember because of the surplus market there isnt the massive drive from the aftermarket to develop more accurate, better expanding, more wounding ammunition for the 7.62x39mm as there is for the 5.56x45mm.
These tests are thusly, quite skewed in my mind. For these to be particularly worthwhile the 5.56 and the 7.62 should have a similar FMJ design and THEN be tested.
El Tejon
Member
Ken Campbell, head of SRT for Boone Co. (Indiana) Sheriff's Department, editor for SWAT, THR member, associate professor of gunology and tacticnomics at Gunstie and all-around swell egg, carries a Kalishnikov in his vehicle with extra mag rubber banded to the stock (Hoosier tactical, baby).
KaceCoyote
Member
a 65gr .223 is about as deadly as that caliber gets, vs the lightest load available for the AK commercially?
Not fair.
Not fair.
KaceCoyote
Member
Im yet to see a hardworked AR that can outshoot an AK with similar ammunition. The myths about accuracy stem from poor sights and poor ammunition in a rifle most people just bumpfire and put away wet. A Vepr or Saiga with a good barrel and good sights can do everything an AR can.
Huh?
Egad. All that surplus steel-cased 123gr 7.62x39 ammo I've bought and fired, several thousands of rounds liberated from their tin containers, and just now I learn that it ain't the real thing? Bummer.
For the record, I have no problems with law enforcement carrying a semiauto AK variant. It's chambered for an intermediate cartridge, which is just fine considering Barney Fife ain't a designated 1000-yard sniper anyways. Load it with 130gr Glasers or 80gr MagSafes if you're worried about overpenetration.
A 120-123gr AK bullet is not the standard bullet weight for that round?
Egad. All that surplus steel-cased 123gr 7.62x39 ammo I've bought and fired, several thousands of rounds liberated from their tin containers, and just now I learn that it ain't the real thing? Bummer.
For the record, I have no problems with law enforcement carrying a semiauto AK variant. It's chambered for an intermediate cartridge, which is just fine considering Barney Fife ain't a designated 1000-yard sniper anyways. Load it with 130gr Glasers or 80gr MagSafes if you're worried about overpenetration.
KaceCoyote
Member
I've been told RUSSIAN standard issue is a 155 grain. I could be wrong but 155 grain seems just about right, considering the heavier bullet weights seem to do better in AKs that I've encountered.
I'm open to being corrected folks so please do.
I'm open to being corrected folks so please do.
rbernie
Contributing Member
KaceCoyote
Member
They tell me how many grams, I think but I'm not seeing the bullet weights in grains?
rbernie
Contributing Member
First Google link for the search "unit conversion grams grains" yields http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/massunits.html . Using the supplied calculator tells me that a 7.9 gram bullet weight equals 121.9156309 grains.
That wasn't that hard.
That wasn't that hard.
KaceCoyote
Member
Well thankyou, learn somethin new everyday. It would appear as though I've been given some bad info.
chopinbloc
Member
you didn't metion if you already own an ar. if so the ar is the obvious choice. if not, my opinion is they're pretty close. the military is NOT moving to the 6.8; most troops will never use it. the 6.8 rem spc "special purpose cartridge" is just that - a cartridge designed to provide good terminal ballistics outside the envelope average firefights occur in. m855 ammo out of a 20" barrel will reliably fragment out to about 250 meters or more. unfortunately, out of a 14.5" barrel it will only work out to about 150meters, which is at the edge of practicality on the battle field and the reason we get poor reports on performance occasionally. these reports are almost always from troops who were shooting at targets in excess of 150meters away with m-4s. the 6.8 is issued to small numbers of sof, delta and other ninja types who may be required to drop targets at extreme distance.
if your department is mostly rural, the overpenetration issue of the 7.62 round is mostly a non-issue, but the accuracy issue crops up. no matter how much stuff you paste on an ak it is still an intrinsically innaccurate weapon. if you also consider that it has an image that is associated with "bad guys" in the public's mind, you might decide against it. if you are set on 7.62 and don't need to worry too much about overpenetration issues, why not the mini-30? while not a tack driver, it tends toward better accuracy than the ak designs, comes with decent sights from the factory, costs half as much as that krebs frankenstein and it has a better image in the public eye.
if your department is mostly rural, the overpenetration issue of the 7.62 round is mostly a non-issue, but the accuracy issue crops up. no matter how much stuff you paste on an ak it is still an intrinsically innaccurate weapon. if you also consider that it has an image that is associated with "bad guys" in the public's mind, you might decide against it. if you are set on 7.62 and don't need to worry too much about overpenetration issues, why not the mini-30? while not a tack driver, it tends toward better accuracy than the ak designs, comes with decent sights from the factory, costs half as much as that krebs frankenstein and it has a better image in the public eye.
Domino
Member
The 6.8 sounds like a good choice("IF" you can find some ammo), I think that would be a logical step for someone with a lot of M16 experience. If you needed more power than that, an AR-10 would do the trick.
Teufelhunden, given you already have an SKS why not use it and do a few minor mods? Remove the bayonet, add a motecarlo stock, maybe a 20 round fixed magazine, some night or peep sights, and you might have a great patrol rifle. It sounds like you can use it well. Or better yet, find an
I would like an AK but I have I don't really see the point unless I just want one. I have 3 SKS's and the will do the same job.
Seems to me like you need a PARATROOPER SKS , or at least that's what I would get
. I have a paratrooper but it does not take AK mags, it is a VERY hand carbine and I wouldn't hesitate to through it in the truck.
Teufelhunden, given you already have an SKS why not use it and do a few minor mods? Remove the bayonet, add a motecarlo stock, maybe a 20 round fixed magazine, some night or peep sights, and you might have a great patrol rifle. It sounds like you can use it well. Or better yet, find an
I would like an AK but I have I don't really see the point unless I just want one. I have 3 SKS's and the will do the same job.
Seems to me like you need a PARATROOPER SKS , or at least that's what I would get
. I have a paratrooper but it does not take AK mags, it is a VERY hand carbine and I wouldn't hesitate to through it in the truck.wound profiles
Those wound profiles are all good and dandy, but they feature FMJ only (except for the .308 JSP). Now most cops don't use FMJ in their pistols so I wouldn't expect it in their rifles either. Use a soft or hollow point in 7.62x39 and overpenetration may not be as bad. And Wolf does have some 150 grain SP. I'm all for cops using AKs and the variants of it.
Shoot, my Saiga with the sporter stock and 10 round mag doesn't look all that "evil" either. And it will shoot with iron sights at least as well as our mini 14 with a scope. Costs less too.
Those wound profiles are all good and dandy, but they feature FMJ only (except for the .308 JSP). Now most cops don't use FMJ in their pistols so I wouldn't expect it in their rifles either. Use a soft or hollow point in 7.62x39 and overpenetration may not be as bad. And Wolf does have some 150 grain SP. I'm all for cops using AKs and the variants of it.
Shoot, my Saiga with the sporter stock and 10 round mag doesn't look all that "evil" either. And it will shoot with iron sights at least as well as our mini 14 with a scope. Costs less too.
Here we go again with all the spiffy charts and graphs about how well something performs in JELL-O.
If you really want to know, ask the people who use the rifle in the real world.
154 grain soft point and 122 grain hollowpoint 7.62X39 are used for hunting purposes in Russia.
Hollowpoints are used on small to medium game to 400 meters.
The heavy bullet soft points are used on heavier game animals to 200 meters.
Past that the ballistics and effectivness deteriorate rapidly.
Russian Security Forces use a different approach to bullet design when the cartridge is used against human targets.
They still follow Geneva Accords about bullet designs that can be considered legal to use against human beings.
Full Metal jacket the bullets may be but make no bones about it, the designs are lethal.
If you really want to know, ask the people who use the rifle in the real world.
154 grain soft point and 122 grain hollowpoint 7.62X39 are used for hunting purposes in Russia.
Hollowpoints are used on small to medium game to 400 meters.
The heavy bullet soft points are used on heavier game animals to 200 meters.
Past that the ballistics and effectivness deteriorate rapidly.
Russian Security Forces use a different approach to bullet design when the cartridge is used against human targets.
They still follow Geneva Accords about bullet designs that can be considered legal to use against human beings.
Full Metal jacket the bullets may be but make no bones about it, the designs are lethal.
rbernie
Contributing Member
By whom? The twenty-three lucky Russians whom were actually issued a permit to own a coveted long gun?
Sorry - couldn't resist......
KaceCoyote
Member
I'm a big fan of a few military photo sights out there, most notably www.Militaryphotos.net. I see soldiers armed with both calibers participating in combat operations.
If I was still in blues and my department allowed it, I would use the AK platform in a heartbeat.
123 grain softpoint Barnauls are potent in tissue and penetrate decently.
People who hate LEOs are going to b*tch about their hardware anyway so let them whine their uninformed whines.
I love ARs but for a street patrol rifle, I'd go AK.
JMO,
Rabbi
123 grain softpoint Barnauls are potent in tissue and penetrate decently.
People who hate LEOs are going to b*tch about their hardware anyway so let them whine their uninformed whines.
I love ARs but for a street patrol rifle, I'd go AK.
JMO,
Rabbi
The_Antibubba
Member
Considering that the Saiga is a lot less expensive than those Krebs guns, why isn't that a consideration?
OEF_VET
Member
Why not just carry your 5.56 AR for most routine purposes, with a 7.62x39 upper, a bolt and a few loaded mags for those one or two instances over your career when you think it might be necessary? That way, you're still using a platform which you are already intimately familiar with, that the liberal public won't waste additional screams over, and that won't present as many problems with possible over-penetration for most, run-of-the-mill situations.
The extra upper, bolt, and mags could be carried in a case in the trunk of your cruiser, ready to be assembled, should the need arise, with just a few seconds of time spent. I would think that the larger round would most likely be needed in a situation where some armed individual was barricaded behind something which the 5.56 wouldn't penetrate. I'd also think that in such a situation, you'd have time to swap uppers, bolts, and mags.
Of course, I'm not a cop. My opinion is just that, my opinion.
The extra upper, bolt, and mags could be carried in a case in the trunk of your cruiser, ready to be assembled, should the need arise, with just a few seconds of time spent. I would think that the larger round would most likely be needed in a situation where some armed individual was barricaded behind something which the 5.56 wouldn't penetrate. I'd also think that in such a situation, you'd have time to swap uppers, bolts, and mags.
Of course, I'm not a cop. My opinion is just that, my opinion.
Powderman
Member
You know, that's not a bad idea. That's not a bad idea at all!
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