7.62x39 vs 7.62×51

[bogie]

1) If you're looking for accuracy, reload.

2) If you're looking for volume of shooting, buy surplus.

3) If you're looking to shoot Bambi's mama and/or daddy once a year, buy the $1/round stuff.

Seriously - There's basically no difference between a Colt AR and a Bushy AR. The lower receiver can work fine with several different uppers. You could have one lower, and a .223 upper, a 7.62x39 upper, and a .50 Beowulf upper.

I do recommend putting in a good aftermarket trigger (even if you buy the "premium" Colt). I like Arnold Jewell's.

 

[LoadedDrum]

I used to have three 7.62x39 guns but I sold them because I am not convinced that Wolf,Silver Bear, etc will deliver the same performance as an actual military surplus 7.62x39 round. I don't want a 30 caliber ice pick any more than I want a .223 ice pick. With nato headstamped 5.56, I know I will get decent terminal performance at the ranges I would take shots. If I need more than that I have 7.62x51 to fall back on.

 

[Cosmoline]

Economist, the pictures are OK, but you have to hold the cartridges in your hands to feel it. Ok that's how I learn, others might have better imaginations.

That, and hold the RIFLES in your hands as well. The AR or AK platform for an intermediate chambering such as 7.62x39 or 5.56 will be considerably lighter and easier to tote than the CETME, FN-FAL or M1A platform for a high power chambering such as .308.

because I am not convinced that Wolf,Silver Bear, etc will deliver the same performance as an actual military surplus 7.62x39 round.

?? That's kind of strange. Where did you get the notion that the commercial sellers downloaded their x39? The Cor-Bon commercial loads are in fact considerably hotter and more effective than any ball loads. Besides, you know you can buy surplus ball x39, right?

 

[Nightcrawler]

If you want fragmentation, the Wolf 123 grain JHP tends to explode in stuff pretty well.

I use 150 grain soft points in my .308 for making big holes in stuff. I'm going to try out some 150 Power Points from Georgia Arms this summer.

 

[WeedWhacker]

7.62x39 and 5.56x45 are roughly comparable. They are "short" rounds, in a different power class than "full" battle rifle rounds.

.308 Winchester chambers can shoot .308 Winchester (duh) and 7.62x51, also known as 7.62 NATO. These almost identical rounds are full-power battle rifle rounds and are a class above the "short" rounds mentioned above. These are also comparable to (although less flexible than) the .30-06 rifle round.

Decide on your rifle's primary application to decide which caliber to pick. If you desire to do shorter-range work with minimal recoil, then pick a "short" rifle round. If you wish to have the option to take longer shots *and* have those shots be able to hit harder and penetrate much more cover than any of the "short" rifle rounds, then consider the .308/7.62x51.

Once you pick the cartridge you want, then start looking at specific platforms, such as the AR-15 or the AK-47. For any rifle which may one day be used in a self-defence scenario, I would personally place heavy emphasis on reliability over any other aspect of a platform.
I would encourage a person not to get hung up on ergonomics and features over reliability - if both can be found in a particular platform, great. If not, go with the most reliable design.
AR platforms are one of the most featureful designs out there, some of which I think make good combat sense (the last-round bolt hold-open device, for example), but most AK-derived designs are unquestionably more reliable.

So, in summary:
1. pick the application
2. pick the cartridge
3. pick the specific platform/rifle
... for best results.

 

[glockman19]

Out of my M1A I shoot NATO stamped 7.62 147 grain. I can hit targets all day long @ 400 yards I haven't tried a longer shot but with my mil dot 6-24x40 scope I'm sure I can go much further and still hit a 18" target. I expect my max range to be 800 yards although it is possible to reach 1,000. I have an AR-15 and shoot 5.56 to a range of no more than 300 yards effectively I'm not sure the round has much velocity further than that. My mini-14 shoots .223 and I'm not sure it will be acurate over 200-300 yards.

When in doubt I'll use the largest caliber for the job. Wrong tool = wrong results.

Long range: 300-1,000 Yards
Remington 700 in .30-06
M1A in .762
Medium Range: 100 - 300 Yards
AR-15 in 5.65
Mini-14 in .223
Short range: 25-100 yards
870 12 Gague with #00 or slugs
or AR-15, Mini-14, or .45, 357, 9mm
Up close & Personal: 0-25 yards
9mm, .38

 

[LoadedDrum]

Quote:
because I am not convinced that Wolf,Silver Bear, etc will deliver the same performance as an actual military surplus 7.62x39 round.

?? That's kind of strange. Where did you get the notion that the commercial sellers downloaded their x39? The Cor-Bon commercial loads are in fact considerably hotter and more effective than any ball loads. Besides, you know you can buy surplus ball x39, right?

Shooting it back to back with surplus ammo gave me that notion. Milsurp may still be available but in my area it is not, where as I can buy ammo with an animal in the name all day. Besides, 5.56 performs better on living creatures than M43. If I need to shoot through something that M855 cannot penetrate I have 7.62x51. I have shot the Corbon 7.62x39 too but it is too expensive to stock pile.

 

[.cheese.]

how much recoil are we talking about when we talk about 7.62x51?

More recoil than most handguns?

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

how much recoil are we talking about when we talk about 7.62x51?

It's a full-power rifle round. I'm not sure how one would compare it to a handgun as the perceived recoil of a rifle is much different than that out of a handgun. The kick is going to be much closer to a .30-06 than a .223.

 

[AK103K]

Yup, more than most handguns.

Of the three rounds being discussed, it usually has the most felt recoil. Most of the 7.62x51 military rifles run in the 9-10 pound range and that, and the fact that most are gas operated, soaks up a little of it. Some complain the HK's kick harder, but I never really noticed it. Shoot the same round out of a light weight bolt and you will notice a difference.

I wouldnt really call the 7.62x51 a "kicker", but you may if you didnt learn to shoot with one, or any of the larger rifle calibers. Most of the older boys who learned to shoot on the 30/06, 7.62x51, 8mm, etc, learned to shoot them properly and generally dont notice. If you learned on a M16 and try to hold the rifle like one, you will most likely notice a difference.

 

[.cheese.]

no.... only M16 I've used is CRKT's M16.

My rifle experience is very limited. I only own .22's right now for rifles. I don't care if I jump right in recoil-wise, afterall, I learned how to shoot a handgun on a Smith 340PD with .357 mag rounds.

I just have to make up my mind so I know what to buy.

 

[CNYCacher]

Economist:

If we knew your general location, some THR members might offer to let you test out some of their rifles.

 

[ConfuseUs]

This is just for my own personal usage as I have the money now for my 2 Colt AR's..... but I'm starting to seriously doubt whether or not I want to go with 5.56 for my defense long-gun.

Defense from what? If you're out in the boonies, it's probably no big deal if you use a .308 or 7.62x39 for self defense. In apartments or even suburban houses, 5.56x45 has the least risk of severe overpenetration. I'm pretty sure a .308 can go through a bad guy, through walls into the apartment/house next door, and kill/wound the neighbors.

And I'm having cold feet about the AR platform and am starting to think about FAL and AK.

heh, the AR vs AK debate. They both work, so I say buy both and then duct tape them together to have the ULTIMATE WEAPON(S)!

 

[WeedWhacker]

As AK103K mentioned, the type of platform used can make a big difference in felt or perceived recoil.

I use a .308 Galil with a flash suppressor, which is a heavy beast, and the lack of a muzzle break means I still get a "fair" amount of recoil. That said, however, the first time I went out to the range with it, I blasted 400 rounds out of it while wearing just a single T-shirt and with the "stock" hard plastic folding stock. I will admit to having a bit of a sore spot on my shoulder for the next two days. By contrast, I use two recoil pads when shooting a 12-gauge.

End result: get a gas-operated .308 and one generic recoil pad and you'll be set, even if you're a recoil wimp like me.

 

[nemoaz]

My rifle experience is very limited. I only own .22's right now for rifles. I don't care if I jump right in recoil-wise, afterall, I learned how to shoot a handgun on a Smith 340PD with .357 mag rounds.

Recoil is between the ears, not between the hands. If you are disciplined enough to shoot a 340PD you will have no trouble with any of the military rifle rounds.

 

[280PLUS]

CZ makes a sweet little bolt action carbine in 7.62x39. Just so you know...

 

[Oohrah]

My .02 is stick with 7.62x51. Nato round that does most
everything, in use, mostly brass cased. Still get grade one
cases from Midway and others. Suspect once conflict is over
Milsurp will be available again. Even though some will load the
steel cases none are offered for that purpose. The reloading
will get ya through until mgf. catches up. Most likely the demand
will keep high, until until availabity returns.

 

[ctdonath]

Agreed that recoil is mostly between the ears.

Just getting used to it is one thing. If you can, to your bones, know it's gonna happen and that's OK, you'll hardly notice it.
The other thing is mounting it properly. There's a huge difference between recoiling onto muscle vs. bone. Get the body mechanics down right, with a thick cushion of muscle in the right place, and pain will be minimized. Put that stock square on your collarbone, and it's gonna HURT.

 

[destrux]

Always remember to factor in the terrain you might be using the rifle in during a home defense situation. If you might have to shoot through windows, light brush, or are in an area where overpenetration isn't a problem, then the 7.62x39 is a good bet.

If you're in an area where you probably won't have to fire through anything but air, and where overpenetration is a major concern, then 5.56x45 is a good idea.

If you're planning on using the rifle for long range hunting or long range target shooting, along with home defense that may require glass penetration and brush penetration, and no problems with overpenetration... then 7.62x51 is a good cartridge.

Platforms are a personal thing, you should really try them out to get a feel for which one fits you best. Listen to other people's opinions about them, but don't use opinions as a deciding factor.

Personally, I prefer the feel of my SKS-M over all of my other rifles. It's fitted with a tapco T6 stock with a forward vertical grip and a red dot mounted on a siderail AK type scope mount. The SKS-M is designed to use 30rd AK magazines, so it isn't limited to 10rds like most SKS's. It also has a 16" barrel, which is shorter than the usual 20" SKS. It costs about the same as a basic AK ($350). The recoil is more than an AR or AK, but this rifle is unbraked (which may change soon).

 

[elmerfudd]

The big problem with recoil isn't it beating the snot out of you, (at least not with the cartridges we're talking about), but rather it's effect on your speed and followup shots. The harder the kick, the longer it will take you to get back on target and fire your next shot.