Vegaslaith
Member
Do soldiers keep their used mags, or let them fall where they may when they hit the mag release? If you were to go back in time to the battle of Stalingrad or Vietnam, would the ground be littered with brass and emty mags?
Are mags meant to be disposable?
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lloydkristmas
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Im no expert, but I always thought they had some sort of 'dump pouch' to put a empty mag in (if there was ample time), otherwise, yea I'm sure they just got dropped to the ground.
Anteater1717
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No, however chargers and stripper clips are.
ASM826
Member
At Stalingrad
At Stalingrad, it was bolt action rifles on both sides. In static positions there would be time for brass to accumulate. But there would not have been magazines.
Where magazines have been used, I would think that when things calmed down, undamaged mags usually would be picked up and reloaded, troops in the field are at the very end of the supply line, and no matter how many magazines are in depot storage, you only have the mags you carried out there.
At Stalingrad, it was bolt action rifles on both sides. In static positions there would be time for brass to accumulate. But there would not have been magazines.
Where magazines have been used, I would think that when things calmed down, undamaged mags usually would be picked up and reloaded, troops in the field are at the very end of the supply line, and no matter how many magazines are in depot storage, you only have the mags you carried out there.
jrfoxx
Member
I believe thats correct, but I'm wouldn't be surprised if they are considered "consumables" by supply, as they are a known item that gets worn, damaged, or otherwise becomes unserviceable fairly quickly, and at a fairly high rate. Also, I wouldn't know from experience, but I would guess that if you dropped a couple mags during a firefight and they got lost or damaged, they wouldn't exactly give you NJP for it. While I'm sure they like to see them all return with you, and return undamaged, I have to think that they understand that it may not always be possible or practical at the same time. Or at least I'd hope so anyways. you never know with the military, they can be funny about stuff.
A good example was my boots the last year I was in the Navy. They kept giving me hits on them during inspections saying they were unservicable and needed to be replaced, but denied 5 request chits from me that year for new boots, claiming mine were still serviceable
. Go figure.Regolith
Member
I think I read a story here (or perhaps it was somewhere else) where a soldier got fined for failing to police his magazines while serving in Iraq.
The only type of mag I can think of that would be disposable would be a clip, either stripper or en bloc.
The only type of mag I can think of that would be disposable would be a clip, either stripper or en bloc.
Good Shot Group
Member
I learned in Baghdad that if you drop your magazines on the ground, eventually you won't have any magazines to reload. This lesson was learned in Somalia in the 90's as well. The soldiers involved in that operation were not retaining their magazines and after a little bit they couldn't reload anything.
I teach a Close Quarters Marksmanship Course for the Army that teaches magazine retention and ammo management. You would be suprised how many non combat soldiers can't wrap their head around the fact they need to retain their magazines, because normally no one is going to be able to resupply you in combat.
A dump pouch is a must, I wear a Blackhawk drop leg pouch that will hold all 12 of my magazines. The drop pouch needs to have an elastic closure on the top that you can push magazines through, but that won't let magazines fall out while running, falling, etc.
If you train with your M-4, Ak-47, other black gun, etc., you should have your dump pouch on and use it for all your spent magazines during practice on the range. It's all about building that muscle memory.
I teach a Close Quarters Marksmanship Course for the Army that teaches magazine retention and ammo management. You would be suprised how many non combat soldiers can't wrap their head around the fact they need to retain their magazines, because normally no one is going to be able to resupply you in combat.
A dump pouch is a must, I wear a Blackhawk drop leg pouch that will hold all 12 of my magazines. The drop pouch needs to have an elastic closure on the top that you can push magazines through, but that won't let magazines fall out while running, falling, etc.
If you train with your M-4, Ak-47, other black gun, etc., you should have your dump pouch on and use it for all your spent magazines during practice on the range. It's all about building that muscle memory.
W.E.G.
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XD Fan
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Witty, .cheese., witty.
MinnMooney
Member
By the looks of all the surplus mags that are almost totally worn out, I'd say that they get used over and over many times.
Sistema1927
Member
Ah, yes, PM comic book. That brings back memories, especially the references to LSA.
Mags are generally not considered consumable, but it depends on the army. During WW2, in theory, mags for the BAR and Johnson were supposed to be retained, but seldom were.
In Vietnam, while mags were supposed to be retained, again, they seldom actually were in combat. Look at the Diemarco plastic mags the Canadians fielded.
The Soviet philosophy was ambivalent, generally of the opinion that a trooper likely wouldn't survive long enough in battle to have to worry about running out of ammo before he or the enemy was dead and mags could be looted from wounded and dead.
Personally, mag retention is a military skill, and only for prolonged engagements. Otherwise, either you're dead or they are. Either you don't care, or you aren't in a hurry.
In Vietnam, while mags were supposed to be retained, again, they seldom actually were in combat. Look at the Diemarco plastic mags the Canadians fielded.
The Soviet philosophy was ambivalent, generally of the opinion that a trooper likely wouldn't survive long enough in battle to have to worry about running out of ammo before he or the enemy was dead and mags could be looted from wounded and dead.
Personally, mag retention is a military skill, and only for prolonged engagements. Otherwise, either you're dead or they are. Either you don't care, or you aren't in a hurry.
Z-Michigan
Member
What I've read is that the original straight 20-rd magazine for the M16 was intended to be disposable. Funny too since they are quite decent mags. Just another example of bad thinking around a good weapon.
Otherwise, mags are reusable long term, and stripper clips are often treated as disposable - but really shouldn't be. I think a dump pouch is the modern way to go, but with earlier military gear, even through the 1980's, I think it was assumed you would just put empty mags back in the pouch that full mags came from. Yes, I realize the big opportunity for bad mix-ups with that approach. However, when I was issued ALICE gear during ROTC, there were mag pouches but no separate dump pouches. Maybe it was different for real soldiers.
Otherwise, mags are reusable long term, and stripper clips are often treated as disposable - but really shouldn't be. I think a dump pouch is the modern way to go, but with earlier military gear, even through the 1980's, I think it was assumed you would just put empty mags back in the pouch that full mags came from. Yes, I realize the big opportunity for bad mix-ups with that approach. However, when I was issued ALICE gear during ROTC, there were mag pouches but no separate dump pouches. Maybe it was different for real soldiers.
Vegaslaith
Member
Hmm. So it depends on the country I guess. I've never seen a dump pouch so wouldn' really know what to look for next time I see a war movie.
Z-Michigan
Member
The only dump pouches I've seen are on or for US soldiers. And I wouldn't expect to see them in a hollywood movie, because they're bulky, their function isn't obvious to most people, and they wouldn't add anything to the plot in 99.9999% of action movies.
Gentleman Ranker
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ASM826 (Yesterday 08:46 PM) #5 says:
Not to be pedantic or anything.
regards,
GR
Plus SMGs (MP38/40, PPSh, PPD, etc.) and LMGs (some ZB-type in second-line German units, DP-type for the Soviets), etc. Possibly a few rifles with detachable magazines on each side (Soviet SVT, don't know if FG42 or G43 variants were much used there), but not many. Pistols of course, but I would not think those were of great tactical significance.
Not to be pedantic or anything.
regards,
GR
I believe that the clips for 30-06 ammo for the M1 Garand were considered disposable. They automatically eject from the top of the rifle and go who-knows-where. I'm not aware of any accounts of GI's going around the battle field either durring or after the battle and picking them up for re-use.
As a side note, is anyone aware of any accounts of someone firing the last round in a Garand from the hip and catching a spent clip in the chops? I can envision that happening but I have never heard any real-world accounts of such.
As a side note, is anyone aware of any accounts of someone firing the last round in a Garand from the hip and catching a spent clip in the chops? I can envision that happening but I have never heard any real-world accounts of such.
wally
Member
Supposedly one of the early knocks against armies adopting auto-loading pistols was the Luger and 1911 magazines weren't "trooper proof" and too expensive to be considered disposable.
--wally,
--wally,
A dump pouch can be as simple as a squad auto belt fed ammo bag hung on the belt or vest and as elaborate as a thigh mounted specialized pouch.
The SAW bag will hold an easy six magazines and a dump pouch can hold as many as twenty.
Back when we tucked our uniform shirts in, we just jammed the empty magazines down the front of our shirts.
The SAW bag will hold an easy six magazines and a dump pouch can hold as many as twenty.
Back when we tucked our uniform shirts in, we just jammed the empty magazines down the front of our shirts.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I was gonna say.
The only dump pouch I ever had issued was an unbuttoned fatigue shirt.
You put them back in the belt & suspenders mag pouches when you had time later.
Thank god the mags didn't get as hot as the rest of the rifle!
rcmodel
The only dump pouch I ever had issued was an unbuttoned fatigue shirt.
You put them back in the belt & suspenders mag pouches when you had time later.
Thank god the mags didn't get as hot as the rest of the rifle!
rcmodel
For accountability, magazines are classified as an expendable item. It’s pretty much up to your particular command to generate policy and enforce it on these items to ensure there is no fraud, waste, or abuse of resources. Units don’t stock up on them with the idea of having to replace them often, like pipe cleaners or bore brushes.
If you are hand-receipted 220 for a range qualification event and you only have 180 when you are finished, you can plan on getting charged for the missing ones.
In a tactical environment you can expect more understanding, so long as you don’t get caught being short of your basic load during a precombat inspection. In those cases there is the potential for someone to get a lot of personal attention, and possibly getting your feelings hurt.
For the purposes of ordering more, they are classified as a repair part. So long as the unit has the money there is no big deal.
As for tactical instruction on whether to retain the magazines; it is up to your unit how they train and operate. I will say that if your unit keeps throwing them away every time they get emptied you can expect to end up without enough magazines in pretty short order.
This is my experience only; the military is a big place.
If you are hand-receipted 220 for a range qualification event and you only have 180 when you are finished, you can plan on getting charged for the missing ones.
In a tactical environment you can expect more understanding, so long as you don’t get caught being short of your basic load during a precombat inspection. In those cases there is the potential for someone to get a lot of personal attention, and possibly getting your feelings hurt.
For the purposes of ordering more, they are classified as a repair part. So long as the unit has the money there is no big deal.
As for tactical instruction on whether to retain the magazines; it is up to your unit how they train and operate. I will say that if your unit keeps throwing them away every time they get emptied you can expect to end up without enough magazines in pretty short order.
This is my experience only; the military is a big place.
robsc
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