I'm assuming it slid off the safe as it was falling the hole is 43 inches high my gun 35 inches long. The safe is 8-10inches tall I'm assuming it was setting on the corner I might have bumped it in my sleep causing it to fall forward which slid it off the safe causing it to fire? My head is still reeling. I started this post 10 minutes after I collected my family and myself somewhat. What's weird is they didn't hear the gun go off only the ping of the impact.
Negligent discharge today
- Thread starter Sentryau2
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preachnhunt
Member
Sentryau2, Thanks for posting. I have one in the same condition in the bedroom that I will fix as soon as I finish typing this. I had no idea that bolt open,mag in , safety on ,was unsafe. We all live and learn. Take the good advice from those who are more experienced and move on. Maybe your mistake will save someone else from tragedy.
Having served 22 years USAR if I feel the need to have a firearm ready at hand I would keep it in #3.
Let's break it down. First, the safety isn't going to slip off - AR safeties are not spring loaded to the fire position. It would take having it hit something to move the safety to the off position - falling vertically toward earth would require the safety get pushed toward the grip, right? It would have to fall far enough for momentum to get enough force, have it strike something which could catch the lever, and then turn it 90 degrees.
I'm gonna suggest it would take a 100 tries to get it to do it once. Not impossible - but highly improbable.
If it hit hard enough it could jar the bolt off the catch. I've never seen an AR/M16 I couldn't slap the mag hard enough and have it jar off the catch and chamber a round. Trying to excitedly combat load the weapon in training I've done it time and again, which reinforced that smooth was fast, and banging the weapon around made things difficult. No doubt the bolt will release if it hits butt first hard enough. But that isn't to say it happens 100% - it has to hit hard.
With the safety off and the bolt forward with a chambered round we now have to ask was it a slam fire or did the hammer go forward? No report. All we have is "it went off." AR's do NOT just go off if the firing pin taps the primer - if they did we wouldn't need a hammer at all and they'd be full auto all the time. Which isn't the case.
What AR's shoot in the military is MILITARY spec ammo with hard primers. What is reported in this case is "Winchester 45 gr" which isn't milspec. That opens up the possibility it's soft bolt action rifle primers, not hard military full auto primers.
Primers aren't all the same, and ammo for self loading rifles needs to be tuned for the specific dynamics of the self loading action. 3Gun competitors play with primers and many report the softer ones will cause the rare slam fire. They were attempting to use a soft hammer spring to reduce pull (Stoner did it backwards to keep soldiers from screwing around with it) - but for every positive there's a negative. Light triggers + soft primers = increased risk of slamfire. So they use the harder ones to prevent it. Hammers rarely slip off - unless someone has tuned it with an irresponsibly short take up.
I'm blaming a soft primer.
What would help is for responsible ammo makers to have a warning on soft primer ammo that it's not suitable for self loading actions. We worry about +P, leade, throat dimensions, but the idea of primers not being appropriate for semi autos doesn't get much traction. It is important.
Nope, I woujldn't store the weapon bolt back. If things are that dangerous, I'd have it locked and loaded. The internet myth of waking up to a knife at your throat is just that, someone breaking down the door is actually almost as rare as a slamfire. A dog or alarm system would be more appropriate to warn you than a half loaded gun. And ammo specifically designed for an AR would be, too.
No need to overreact, just consider all the ramifications and change what few things contributed to the ND. That is how we all improve our understanding and skills. We make mistakes - or learn from others - and then make the effort to incorporate them.
Let's break it down. First, the safety isn't going to slip off - AR safeties are not spring loaded to the fire position. It would take having it hit something to move the safety to the off position - falling vertically toward earth would require the safety get pushed toward the grip, right? It would have to fall far enough for momentum to get enough force, have it strike something which could catch the lever, and then turn it 90 degrees.
I'm gonna suggest it would take a 100 tries to get it to do it once. Not impossible - but highly improbable.
If it hit hard enough it could jar the bolt off the catch. I've never seen an AR/M16 I couldn't slap the mag hard enough and have it jar off the catch and chamber a round. Trying to excitedly combat load the weapon in training I've done it time and again, which reinforced that smooth was fast, and banging the weapon around made things difficult. No doubt the bolt will release if it hits butt first hard enough. But that isn't to say it happens 100% - it has to hit hard.
With the safety off and the bolt forward with a chambered round we now have to ask was it a slam fire or did the hammer go forward? No report. All we have is "it went off." AR's do NOT just go off if the firing pin taps the primer - if they did we wouldn't need a hammer at all and they'd be full auto all the time. Which isn't the case.
What AR's shoot in the military is MILITARY spec ammo with hard primers. What is reported in this case is "Winchester 45 gr" which isn't milspec. That opens up the possibility it's soft bolt action rifle primers, not hard military full auto primers.
Primers aren't all the same, and ammo for self loading rifles needs to be tuned for the specific dynamics of the self loading action. 3Gun competitors play with primers and many report the softer ones will cause the rare slam fire. They were attempting to use a soft hammer spring to reduce pull (Stoner did it backwards to keep soldiers from screwing around with it) - but for every positive there's a negative. Light triggers + soft primers = increased risk of slamfire. So they use the harder ones to prevent it. Hammers rarely slip off - unless someone has tuned it with an irresponsibly short take up.
I'm blaming a soft primer.
What would help is for responsible ammo makers to have a warning on soft primer ammo that it's not suitable for self loading actions. We worry about +P, leade, throat dimensions, but the idea of primers not being appropriate for semi autos doesn't get much traction. It is important.
Nope, I woujldn't store the weapon bolt back. If things are that dangerous, I'd have it locked and loaded. The internet myth of waking up to a knife at your throat is just that, someone breaking down the door is actually almost as rare as a slamfire. A dog or alarm system would be more appropriate to warn you than a half loaded gun. And ammo specifically designed for an AR would be, too.
No need to overreact, just consider all the ramifications and change what few things contributed to the ND. That is how we all improve our understanding and skills. We make mistakes - or learn from others - and then make the effort to incorporate them.
Lord Teapot
Member
that sucks, a chambered safety-off ar15 is my night night weapon sits against the wall next to my bed. never left the bolt open though, that seems odd...
Sav .250
Member
Lesson learned..........
I keep a 9mm carbine next to my bed at night. Full mag, empty chamber, bolt closed and safety OFF. My thoughts are that I will need to chamber a round in a somewhat murky state of mind and this gun will not allow me to pull back the bolt with the safety ON. Every morning I put the safety on and put it back in the safe. It has a light that is rigged to come on as soon as I hold the fore grip as well.
My night stand gun is a revolver.
My night stand gun is a revolver.
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onelastshot
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2015
- Messages
- 73
Thanks for posting; going forward my AR's are going to be kept bolt closed with an empty chamber.
Jim Watson
Member
Not a condition I would have chosen.
If it is not safe to leave an AR loaded with the safety on, in a position where it is not likely to fall, then I don't want one for a house gun.
My usual house guns are an un-pumped Ithaca 37 and a Sig P226 DA/SA. But in the face of civil unrest or attacks by the 71 Jihadists, I would load the rifle.
But you should also consider the quality of the AR. There are so many home builts and small shop puttogethers out of commodity parts that the mil spec is gone with the wind. I would not be surprised at anything.
If it is not safe to leave an AR loaded with the safety on, in a position where it is not likely to fall, then I don't want one for a house gun.
My usual house guns are an un-pumped Ithaca 37 and a Sig P226 DA/SA. But in the face of civil unrest or attacks by the 71 Jihadists, I would load the rifle.
But you should also consider the quality of the AR. There are so many home builts and small shop puttogethers out of commodity parts that the mil spec is gone with the wind. I would not be surprised at anything.
il.bill
Member
Sentryau2 -
1st - glad that no one was hurt.
2nd - thanks for sharing. More than one of us has learned a valuable safety lesson here. Should we have already known the danger of storing an AR15 with bolt open, loaded magazine, and safety 'on'? Certainly, but I for one did not think about the distinct possibility of slam fire, however obvious it is to me in hindsight.
3rd - take a deep breath, and do not beat yourself up endlessly over this. A possible life saving lesson learned with no casualties, albeit at some cost, as it should be. A mistake that has damaged property, your confidence, and your conscience. This will make you take a long look at all your firearms and safe storage and handling. That can be a good outcome, both for you and for others (like me).
1st - glad that no one was hurt.
2nd - thanks for sharing. More than one of us has learned a valuable safety lesson here. Should we have already known the danger of storing an AR15 with bolt open, loaded magazine, and safety 'on'? Certainly, but I for one did not think about the distinct possibility of slam fire, however obvious it is to me in hindsight.
3rd - take a deep breath, and do not beat yourself up endlessly over this. A possible life saving lesson learned with no casualties, albeit at some cost, as it should be. A mistake that has damaged property, your confidence, and your conscience. This will make you take a long look at all your firearms and safe storage and handling. That can be a good outcome, both for you and for others (like me).
OilyPablo
Member
For sure the lesson for many many people is your weapon(s) for personal protection should be: Know everything about the gun and then some. To me this goes beyond the basic gun rules that all must know.
ironworkerwill
Member
Thanks for sharing your lesson Sentryau2. A lesser man would not be so quick to admit such. I'm glad everyone is ok.
Ironicaintit
Member
On my carbine that I usually leave bolt open, safety off and loaded...i thumbed the top round down and let the bolt close over it. Done.
The oprod would have to manipulated either way, so its probably best to default to the safer option.
The oprod would have to manipulated either way, so its probably best to default to the safer option.
Zaydok Allen
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2011
- Messages
- 13,274
Well, you've sufficiently beat yourself up and felt guilty. So that's a good thing, because you recognize the gravity of the situation.
Now you have learned from your peers about an aspect of your gun. That's a good thing.
Don't freak out and sell your guns. Maybe sell that one gun if you are uncomfortable with it. But, perhaps use this as a good reason to reassess how you do things.
Accidents happen. Weird things take place. We all make mistakes. And kudos to you for posting this thread, as there is a safety, and a technical lesson to be learned here.
Keep your head up man.
Now you have learned from your peers about an aspect of your gun. That's a good thing.
Don't freak out and sell your guns. Maybe sell that one gun if you are uncomfortable with it. But, perhaps use this as a good reason to reassess how you do things.
Accidents happen. Weird things take place. We all make mistakes. And kudos to you for posting this thread, as there is a safety, and a technical lesson to be learned here.
Keep your head up man.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Sentryau2
"This," meaning denting the primer when the bolt closes.
Yes, many but not all. For example, the M1 Carbine does this, as does the M1 Garand, as well as the SKS semi rifle among others. The SKS is fairly well known to slamfire with its floating firing pin, to the point where at least one guy in TX* sells replacement firing pins for it which are either lightweight titanium or sprung backward, or both, depending on the exact model of SKS.
The firing pin can also be stuck forward ("protruding firing pin") from dirt and cause slamfires. In fact, it can cause an unexpected mag dump.
With the SKS, the original design had a sprung firing pin, which was later modified to not have the spring in it. (I note that most combloc ammo has somewhat harder primer cups than American primers. Hence slamfires and mag dumps were not a common problem until folks started using American "softer" primers in them.)
With the M1s (both), it was deemed not necessary to have the firing pin sprung, and it was known to be a slight danger but only in extraordinary circumstances. One such extraordinary circumstance is re-chambering a cartridge which had been previously chambered once or twice --which ordinarily does not happen in combat, especially with the Garand's en bloc loading system. **
And yes, denting the primer does sensitize it somewhat. In fact, the act of pressing the primer into the primer pocket during manufacture or reloading the cartridge forces the anvil into the priming compound slightly and sensitizes it. One can verify this by examining an un-re-loaded primer and noting the anvil sticks out the bottom of the primer cup a matter of a few thousandths. It is seated flush to the bottom of the primer cup in the act of pressing it into the primer pocket.
It is possible in Sentryau2's case that the bolt release button got bumped on the way down to release the bolt. Thus, the rifle could have actually fired in so-to-speak "mid-air" on the way down. (At the range, I put a mag in with the bolt locked back and close the bolt with a rap of the heel of my left hand to chamber the first round.)
As was mentioned, "I hate floating firing pins." Well, "dislike," anyway.
Your incident was indeed an example of a "perfect storm" of events. I.e., "extraordinary circumstances."
Terry, 230RN
*http://www.murraysguns.com/sksown.htm
There is an interesting and informative discussion of this whole matter in that website.
**That's why, in testing a newly-acquired semiauto, I sometimes put a dummy in the mag, and then only two live cartridges in for the first couple of tries. Depends on the gun. Another cause of double-tapping or mag dumps might be a dirty or damaged disconnector mechanism. I bought a 1911, fairly new condition, which double-tapped, the cause being traced to burrs on the disconnector. A bit of polishing on the disconnector cured that problem.
"This," meaning denting the primer when the bolt closes.
Yes, many but not all. For example, the M1 Carbine does this, as does the M1 Garand, as well as the SKS semi rifle among others. The SKS is fairly well known to slamfire with its floating firing pin, to the point where at least one guy in TX* sells replacement firing pins for it which are either lightweight titanium or sprung backward, or both, depending on the exact model of SKS.
The firing pin can also be stuck forward ("protruding firing pin") from dirt and cause slamfires. In fact, it can cause an unexpected mag dump.
With the SKS, the original design had a sprung firing pin, which was later modified to not have the spring in it. (I note that most combloc ammo has somewhat harder primer cups than American primers. Hence slamfires and mag dumps were not a common problem until folks started using American "softer" primers in them.)
With the M1s (both), it was deemed not necessary to have the firing pin sprung, and it was known to be a slight danger but only in extraordinary circumstances. One such extraordinary circumstance is re-chambering a cartridge which had been previously chambered once or twice --which ordinarily does not happen in combat, especially with the Garand's en bloc loading system. **
And yes, denting the primer does sensitize it somewhat. In fact, the act of pressing the primer into the primer pocket during manufacture or reloading the cartridge forces the anvil into the priming compound slightly and sensitizes it. One can verify this by examining an un-re-loaded primer and noting the anvil sticks out the bottom of the primer cup a matter of a few thousandths. It is seated flush to the bottom of the primer cup in the act of pressing it into the primer pocket.
It is possible in Sentryau2's case that the bolt release button got bumped on the way down to release the bolt. Thus, the rifle could have actually fired in so-to-speak "mid-air" on the way down. (At the range, I put a mag in with the bolt locked back and close the bolt with a rap of the heel of my left hand to chamber the first round.)
As was mentioned, "I hate floating firing pins." Well, "dislike," anyway.
Your incident was indeed an example of a "perfect storm" of events. I.e., "extraordinary circumstances."
Terry, 230RN
*http://www.murraysguns.com/sksown.htm
There is an interesting and informative discussion of this whole matter in that website.
**That's why, in testing a newly-acquired semiauto, I sometimes put a dummy in the mag, and then only two live cartridges in for the first couple of tries. Depends on the gun. Another cause of double-tapping or mag dumps might be a dirty or damaged disconnector mechanism. I bought a 1911, fairly new condition, which double-tapped, the cause being traced to burrs on the disconnector. A bit of polishing on the disconnector cured that problem.
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Schwing
Member
This is a great share. I was unaware of this issue. At least by sharing you are getting others informed.
As far as fixing the holes, I would not worry much about the OSB. For the siding, if you can live with a hole sized spot that isn't a 100% color match, I would just using siding calking. They make it in a wide variety of colors so you can get one that is close. Clean the area around the hole really well and then just squeeze the calking into the hole and overfill it good. Then use a business card sized something to scrape away the excess. If you get smears, they easily wipe off with a damp rag while the calking is still wet.
Potatohead
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2013
- Messages
- 5,375
Scary stuff. Im ashamed to say I had one once..gota learn from it. I didnt shoot for 2 months I was so shaken up. Contemplated quitting altogether but decided to learn from it and move on eventually. Mine went straight into the ground, I was following that rule at least, but shook me up real good.
ny32182
Member
While slam fires in ARs seem to be extremely rare, it seems they do happen.
My bedside AR has the bolt closed on an empty chamber, mag in, safety off.
My bedside AR has the bolt closed on an empty chamber, mag in, safety off.
entropy
Member
Any floating firing pin equipped firearm can discharge if the firing pin develops enough inertial force. The probability of this happening is increased when commercial (non hardend) primers are used. The probablity is further increased if the firearm is stored with the bolt open. The probability is further yet increased if the firearm is left in a precarious postion from which it can fall.
A scary physics lesson, sentryau2. BWT, you wouldn't know whether the hammer dropped or not in this case. the bolt would have recocked it.
I've had a couple ND's in my life. One was during a range session. I was showing a new Mosin Nagant owner how to engage the safety, and it slipped. Fortunately, I follow the Four Rules, so the only damage was to my pride.
A scary physics lesson, sentryau2. BWT, you wouldn't know whether the hammer dropped or not in this case. the bolt would have recocked it.
I've had a couple ND's in my life. One was during a range session. I was showing a new Mosin Nagant owner how to engage the safety, and it slipped. Fortunately, I follow the Four Rules, so the only damage was to my pride.
Ed Ames
Member
Not speaking from personal experience here, but I've been told that similar issues can happen with the mini-14 and related guns as well.
I don't mean to be an ass, but... Failures are rarely the result of a single thing going wrong. Usually there are a chain of events which, had any one been addressed, would have prevented the outcome.
Looking at this case...
Someone mentioned hokey or amateur built ARs. The Sig m400 is as I understand it a decent civilian-market DI AR. Not a factor.
1) decision to store it on top of a safe, or shelf, or whatever it fell off of. Not good in hindsight.
2) decision not to use some sort of cradle or holder to secure the rifle against falling. Not good in hindsight.
3) decision to leave the bolt back. ...
4) decision to have a loaded mag inserted....
This thread has fixated on the last two, for good reason, but change any of those four and the OP would be a happier person today.
In a similar situation I used "quickfist" rubber holders mounted with standard wall anchors in a closet to encircle the barrel and buffer tube of an AR. Kinda a pain to put the rifle in (the "fists" fight to stay closed), dead simple to take it out and make ready. Total cost was $12 iirc. Another time I used a commercial wall mount that was basically a dummy AR mag sticking out of the wall and a pocket for a loaded magazine. That cost about $40 iirc. Either way the rifle was tucked into a tight space, hard to spot, easily available, and could be used quickly.
Either of those would have short circuited the chain of events the OP described, and provide other benefits. Of course you want to do everything right, but true safety planning doesn't count on perfection.
I don't mean to be an ass, but... Failures are rarely the result of a single thing going wrong. Usually there are a chain of events which, had any one been addressed, would have prevented the outcome.
Looking at this case...
Someone mentioned hokey or amateur built ARs. The Sig m400 is as I understand it a decent civilian-market DI AR. Not a factor.
1) decision to store it on top of a safe, or shelf, or whatever it fell off of. Not good in hindsight.
2) decision not to use some sort of cradle or holder to secure the rifle against falling. Not good in hindsight.
3) decision to leave the bolt back. ...
4) decision to have a loaded mag inserted....
This thread has fixated on the last two, for good reason, but change any of those four and the OP would be a happier person today.
In a similar situation I used "quickfist" rubber holders mounted with standard wall anchors in a closet to encircle the barrel and buffer tube of an AR. Kinda a pain to put the rifle in (the "fists" fight to stay closed), dead simple to take it out and make ready. Total cost was $12 iirc. Another time I used a commercial wall mount that was basically a dummy AR mag sticking out of the wall and a pocket for a loaded magazine. That cost about $40 iirc. Either way the rifle was tucked into a tight space, hard to spot, easily available, and could be used quickly.
Either of those would have short circuited the chain of events the OP described, and provide other benefits. Of course you want to do everything right, but true safety planning doesn't count on perfection.
OilyPablo
Member
Safety locks hammer. Not firing pin.
ny32182
Member
Slamfire occurs when the inertial momentum of the firing pin carried into the primer is enough to set off the primer, for whatever reason.
It does not involve the trigger being pulled, or the hammer falling at all. The position of the safety is inconsequential.
The free floating firing pin taps the primer in an AR any time a round is chambered. Eject any round that was chambered in your AR, and you will see a very small imprint in the primer where the firing pin tapped it. In extremely rare cases, if you have a soft, or improperly seated primer, or maybe some one off mechanical problem with the gun, this impact to the primer can set it off. That is the "slamfire" being discussed.
It does not involve the trigger being pulled, or the hammer falling at all. The position of the safety is inconsequential.
The free floating firing pin taps the primer in an AR any time a round is chambered. Eject any round that was chambered in your AR, and you will see a very small imprint in the primer where the firing pin tapped it. In extremely rare cases, if you have a soft, or improperly seated primer, or maybe some one off mechanical problem with the gun, this impact to the primer can set it off. That is the "slamfire" being discussed.
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