Negligent discharge today

[leadcounsel]

Glad you're okay. You should be a little hard on yourself as this was serious. But learn and move on.

NEVER store a gun with the bolt open on a loaded magazine - that is predictable recipe for exactly what occurred due to slamfires or dropfires. Many longguns are prone to slamfires or dropfires, including the AR, SKS, and shotguns. This is also why you hold ANY gun in a safe direction when you chamber a round because a mechanical problem can cause a slamfire on any gun, in theory.

Firearms, ( all firearms) can be safely stored in one of three conditions.

1. Totally empty with no mag in the gun, hammer snapped, and safety on (if possible?)

2. Ready, with an empty chamber, bolt closed, safety on, and a loaded mag in the gun.

3. Cocked & locked. Mag in, bolt closed on a loaded round, safety on.

Correct, and of these only guns for which you rely on for immediate self/home defense should even be considered for #2 or #3. All others should be in #1 category.

 

[Sol]

Oh man, my paranoia meter needle is buried in the red, I have an M400 too!

Full mag inserted, bolt forward, safety off but no round in chamber though.

Bet you had to change the sheets after that, glad no injuries or charges.

 

[barnbwt]

I have a theory;
1) Rifle falls
2) Rifle lands on butt
3) Bolt/carrier inertia bounce enough to release bolt catch
4) Bolt/carrier strip a round and go into battery as rifle rebounds
5) Rifle falls over onto magazine (or possibly other areas)
6) Inertia of trigger shifts it enough to slide off the sear bent
7) Boom.

Steps one through five are enough to make all users of open-bolt guns wary of exactly how they jostle the weapon. A bolt catch is functionally no different than an open-bolt sear.

Steps six through seven seem possible depending on trigger weight and geometry. I wouldn't think a stock military trigger would be so sensitive, but a hard fall is a lot of G's when you're talking metal-on-metal, and that is why the gun's have a manual safety, after all.

This discussion is interesting to me since I'm currently engaged in building a Hotchkiss Universal SMG from a parts kit. It is, quite literally, the safest long gun I've ever heard of:
-Closed bolt operation
-Mechanically blocked firing pin at all times (the striker/spring and sear are in the bolt itself)
-Firing pin mechanically cammed back as striker is cocked
-Trigger safety (in battery, a trigger-operated cam blocks movement of the bolt's sear lever unless pulled)
-Safety sear (secondary sear holds striker until fully forward*)
-Magazine safety (safety sear engages a cam raised by an inserted mag, and will never release the sear if the mag is not present)
-Manual safety (cross bolt, integrated with the fire mode selector)

I think the only conceivable safety feature missing is an inertial firing pin, which is understandable considering how secure the sear inside the bolt is (very strong spring). Due to the way the bolt cocks (a spur shoots at the bottom of the bolt when fired), there is no way 'striker follow' due to sear failure would not end up an inoperable jam, so there is no worry about needing one for an ATF/NFA consideration. Even jar-off as the bolt slides home is impossible, since the trigger safety re-engages once the trigger disconnects. There's no decocker, but considering the lack of double-action it's not needed.

Truth be told, rifles almost universally have a dearth of safety features compared to pistols, usually at most a manual safety and a way of blocking the firing pin from hitting the primer until fully in battery --at most. I've always found it odd how little desire is there for the same features we demand of our handguns.

TCB

*also known as an auto sear, and as this gun was originally select-fire, a no-no per our reckless ATF buddies. It has been removed for my build.

 

[Sentryau2]

I will be buying a safe-T round this weekend. I have changed where and how I store my ar15 now. It will never again be stored the way it was.

 

[Jaymo]

Glad no one was hurt.
ADs are very unnerving.
My Daewoo DR200 is essentially a long stroke, gas piston AR.
I keep it handy with the bolt closed, hammer down, safety on, loaded mag inserted.
Being a mechanic, I don't trust anything man-made not to fail.

Can't the FAL/L1A1 go off the same way?

 

[BigBore45]

glad no one got injured or killed. but really leaving a rifle like that in that position is like leaving a hammer on a roof ledge. yeah its all fine till its not...........


if you want to leave a gun ready for an emergency do as i do a secure box that is finger print open with key'ed backup. i can have that out before anyone can see my bedroom 30 foot away.

On a side note, even if you think a gun will save you, when your asleep your at a severe disadvantage, take it for what it is and hope the lord is on your side.

 

[Fiv3r]

I'll mirror what other's have said. It's good that you are shaken up. Anyone who has had an ND knows how rattling it can be.

About a year ago, I shot a hole in my wall with my Glock. It 100% had nothing to do with the Glock's Safe-Action, and was 100% my fault. I had come back from the range and was checking the action of my pistols. I loaded a mag that I thought was empty into the pistol when I finished at the range (obviously it was not). When I got home I racked it, and I pulled the trigger while pointing it at the wall of the room where I store my non-HD firearms. I should have been tipped off that the slide didn't lock back when I worked the action, but i did not notice.

I was left with the panicked shakes. My ears were ringing and the first thing that sprung to my mind was my 3 year old daughter sitting downstairs (the mind reels with all sorts of improbable doom when you do something so idiotic and careless as having an ND). I rushed down there, and she was fine. As a matter of fact, she hadn't even noticed the bang. My house is pretty solid and I was using a lower powered round.

I was left with a gouge in the the wall at an angle. Luckily, it was hollow point ammo and must have hit the drywall, skidded into the insulation, and stopped somewhere in the wall before hitting the bathtub in the next room over.

Long story short, I was left with painful ringing in my ears for a few days and almost hung up the hobby as well. However, I decided to be smarter and more careful. ALL mags leave the range empty now. I keep my carry mags for my EDC in my truck in my console while I shoot which I load when I get there and firmly holster it. No other firearm I am shooting will have a loaded mag once I leave the bench.

As for the AR, I didn't know it was possible to have an ND in such a way, but it is good to know. I keep all of my night stand weapons loaded, unchambered, and safety off. This includes both my Ar. The only gun I have 100% ready to fire is my GP100.

I'm very glad no one was hurt. You goofed up and were shaken. That's good. Now take a breath and see if you can come back to the hobby when you're ready

 

[OilyPablo]

I never had an ND. BUT I have had two "surprises".

1) I acquired a Winchester 1892 with a very light trigger. At the range, pointed at the target, shouldered, slip finger in trigger guard, BAM. With no intention to pull trigger at that very moment in time I pulled the trigger.
2) 1911 on the bench to change grips. Remove right grip. Full magazine in the gun. None in chamber.

 

[taliv]

fiv3r's post is an example of something that bugs the crap out of me

People who shoot IDPA/IPSC get in the ridiculous habit of "slide down, hammer down, holster" at the match while pointing the pistol into a safe berm....

then they go home and do the same thing, when there IS NO SAFE DIRECTION.

Pulling the friggin trigger in your house before storing the gun does not make the gun safe! It's a really really bad idea.

I believe many military armorers are also predisposed to this idiocy.

 

[ny32182]

In my ten total years of pistol competition I've never known anyone to fire a round in their house as a result of the match clearing procedure, but I've seen one instance where a guy didn't get his gun clear at a match and found the round in the chamber during the hammer down part. And all serious competitors pull the trigger in their house... a LOT.

 

[Ed Ames]

ALL mags leave the range empty now.

That's not the lesson I expected.

I'm not sure it is the best lesson either.

I don't care whether my mags leave the range empty or full. I care that the chamber is empty if I plan to pull the trigger and don't want a boom. I can see a million scenarios where I might accidentally (or intentionally) leave the range with a full mag...in fact one of my personal rules is that I always leave with at least one mag full...but no scenarios where firing an empty chamber is going to cause unwanted holes.

 

[ATLDave]

then they go home and do the same thing, when there IS NO SAFE DIRECTION.

Pulling the friggin trigger in your house before storing the gun does not make the gun safe! It's a really really bad idea.

I think it depends entirely on the house. If your gun storage area is a subterranean basement and you point the gun at a one of the walls while you are alone in that basement, that's fairly safe. You don't want the gun to go off, but it's comparatively safe.

Are you suggesting that one cannot safely dry-fire at home?

Also, as you surely know, if a competitor's gun goes off during the clearing procedure, even while pointed downrange, that's an instant DQ. Competitors certainly don't develop a habit of BOTCHING the clearing procedure and having an unintended discharge!

 

[taliv]

ny32, feel free to explain to me what the point is in pulling the trigger in your house prior to storing a gun. if there is some value to this procedure outside a shooting range, let's talk about it.

atldave, no, of course not. but if all you do is drop the mag and rack the slide before dry firing, then yeah, that's pretty marginal. most people i know who dry fire a lot in their homes at least claim to remove all ammo and especially loaded mags from the room, and very thoroughly check to make sure there is no ammo in the gun. and then they still follow the four rules, with the understanding that a hole in the wall is bad, but not galactically bad like a hole in the person on the other side of the wall.

it is way, way too easy to make a mistake to rely simply on dropping the mag and racking the slide, and then there's no reason to pull the trigger.

 

[ATLDave]

taliv, the value is exactly the same as it is at the range... after you have dropped the hammer on an empty chamber, you KNOW the gun is empty. If storing guns empty is something you intend to do (as I do), it is a way of conclusively establishing that you are doing so. Your point about "safe direction" being harder to determine at home is well taken. An interior sheetrock wall is not a "safe direction."

And anyone who clears a weapon merely by dropping the mag and racking the slide is missing an important step: LOOKING INTO THE CHAMBER. That's why the range commands at the practical sports you listed say "unload and SHOW clear." The competitor must look AND ALLOW THE RO/SO TO LOOK into the chamber to verify that the gun is, in fact, empty. Which is then proven by dropping the hammer on the empty chamber.

 

[Fiv3r]

That's not the lesson I expected.

I'm not sure it is the best lesson either.

I don't care whether my mags leave the range empty or full. I care that the chamber is empty if I plan to pull the trigger and don't want a boom. I can see a million scenarios where I might accidentally (or intentionally) leave the range with a full mag...in fact one of my personal rules is that I always leave with at least one mag full...but no scenarios where firing an empty chamber is going to cause unwanted holes.

I don't leave the range with loaded mags, because I don't have to. If i fire my carry piece, which I usually do, then I pop in a dedicated carry magazine that stays in my truck or might load up and holster the gun at the range unless the weapon is too dirty and needs to be cleaned. I might shoot my 1911, a couple of FNH pistols, my 92, 3 revolvers, and run half a box of .22 through my Mkiii when I go to the range. None of those weapons are my carry weapon and don't need to have the magazine/cylinder loaded when I leave the range. They are going to be wiped down or detailed when I get home and go back into the safe. I generally scrub out the mags as well since I shoot a lot of cheap dirty ammo. I'll reload the magazines before I hit the range again.

My carry piece is a Beretta Nano most of the time. I just slap in the 8 rounder, chamber it, and holster it.

My ND with my Glock stemmed from my own carelessness...or idiocy as taliv put it. Generally speaking, my non-carry guns (like my Glock 26) come home from the range with no magazine in them as I store them separately from my guns for safety. When I racked my Glock, in all honesty, I probably didn't check to see if the gun was empty. I usually keep one magazine loaded with jhp to practice with monthly, and shoot fmj out of the other two mags the other times. When I left the range, I probably popped the jhp mag in due to lack of space in my bag. When I got home, I racked it and dry fired it...or thought I did.

I'm not making excuses at all. It was dumb on my part. I'm just trying to let the OP know that accidents happen. We do dumb things all the time in all facets of life. Guns just warrant absolute care as a mistake can be deadly. I try to go out of my way to be safe and that day I wasn't. Some may call it idiocy. I say it is worse than that. It's complacence.

 

[taliv]

so you don't KNOW the gun is empty when you look into the chamber, but you do KNOW the gun is empty when you pull the trigger? I don't really buy that.

and it is different. immediately after dropping the hammer, you holster it. it is on your hip and in your control. so next time you draw it, you know no one has fiddled with it since you holstered it.

when storing a gun at home, you put it down and walk away. you cannot easily tell a pistol or rifle is unloaded by looking at the outside of it. and you don't know if someone else may have loaded it while you were away.

so... on the range, dropping the hammer is just a way to double check. and i am all for redundant layers of checks.

but when one of those checks is attempting to fire the gun to prove it's empty, it is ok when you have the gun pointed into the ground or a berm. it's STUPID when you have the gun pointed at a wall or floor in your house.

 

[ATLDave]

Better to have a bullet lodged in a brick wall or your yard than in the brain of a child who discovers a gun you left loaded.

And I still fail to see how this is any different than other forms of dry fire. You make sure the gun is unloaded, visually and by process. Then you dry fire it. Whether the purpose is practice or to complete the process of confirming that the gun is unloaded before storing it, it poses the same level of risk.

You also seem to be assuming that the person is pointing in an UNSAFE direction. An interior wall is not safe. A floor with an inhabited level below it is not safe. Pointing it at a masonry, subterranean wall is pretty safe. Pointing it at your yard (a specific point on the ground) where nobody is standing is pretty safe.

 

[SSN Vet]

then they go home and do the same thing, when there IS NO SAFE DIRECTION.

Ummm.... I thought that's what a 5 gal. pail of sand was for

Do USMC armorers rack M16s with the hammer cocked and the safety on?

or do they check the chamber, select fire and drop the hammer (i.e. pull the trigger) ?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Going back to the opening post.

My son's AR15 has a hold open latch activated by the follower of an empty magazine.
If I insert a loaded magazine with the bolt latched open, there is nothing activating the latch: its spring wants to release it.
The bolt is held against the latch by the recoil spring which is stronger than the latch spring.
Pressing the latch releases the bolt.
Moving the bolt back just a bit, the latch spring pops the latch down.
I expect bumping the butt hard enough could bounce the bolt back enough to let the latch release.
I expect the latch to prank me by jumping down all by itself anyway; with a weak magazine spring, it doesn't always lock the bolt open.
I have never left my son's AR15 with the bolt locked open with a loaded magzine for any period of time.

At the range, as soon as I insert a loaded magazine in a gun with a held open bolt, the bolt is then closed and firing resumed. My home defense guns are kept bolt closed on an empty chamber.

 

[ABTOMAT]

I've never had a "real" ND. Closest I ever came was firing an air pistol that was charged (with air) but not loaded (with pellet) into my leg. Scared the hell out of me and made me very aware of muzzle discipline.

 

[VoteforCookies]

I'm glad no one was hurt. Be careful.