Are my guns really registered, or just me?

[Marshall]

The last few times I bought, I remember when calling me in they asked for the serial number of the gun, what type (handgun, shotgun, rifle, etc.) and whether it was a new sale or reclaim out of hock. So, obviously they are able to know more than the fact that I am trying to buy just any gun. Wassup widat?

 

[Alex45ACP]

There is only a checkbox for handgun, long gun, or both. In fact, thre isn't even a way to report if you buy multiple long guns. If you came in and bought 20 shotguns, the gov't would see one NICS transaction and I would check "long gun."

Are you sure? When I had a rifle sent to an FFL the woman was checking if it was a parts gun, if it had a pistol grip, etc. She also told me they've been using an updated form since 9/11.

 

[waterhouse]

I'm positive. Unless she was talking about a special State form I'm not sure what she was talking about. As far as form 4473 goes, I just ordered a new stack which arrived last week. On form 4473 there is a place for the make, model, serial number, etc. but there is no place to write in or a checkbox or anything concerning pistol grips, regular capacity magazines, "assault weapons" etc. Next time you buy a gun feel free to turn the yellow form over and look at exactly what information is contained.

The NICS check contains much less information than form 4473. I can run the entire NICS check with just your driver's license and the knowledge of whether you are buying a handgun, long gun, or both.

Here are the required items for a NICS check:

Last name
First name
Sex
date of birth
Race
State of Residence
Country of Residence
Checkbox: __Handgun __Long gun __Both

There are boxes on the online NICS check for social security number, height, weight, and middle name, but they are all optional and not required. I never input them in order to save time.

There are NOT boxes for the make, model, serial number, or caliber of gun. The only identifying feature of the gun on the NICS check is Type, and all long guns are just long guns, even the "evil" ones with pistol grips and 30 rounds mags.

Again, please understand that I am talking only about the federal level. It is entirely possible that your state has some extra laws that require FFLs to keep records of pistol grips and other "assault" features, but there is no place in the bound book, on form 4473, or on the NICS check to state that a gun has any scary features, and there is no place on the NICS check to state anything about the gun other than handgun or long gun.

 

[Carlos]

There are NOT boxes for the make, model, serial number, or caliber of gun. The only identifying feature of the gun on the NICS check is Type, and all long guns are just long guns, even the "evil" ones with pistol grips and 30 rounds mags.

I've personally had two gun transactions where the FFL was whispering in what make, model, serial number.

Might not be on your form, but it appears it's on theirs.

They got a database (under construction).

 

[F4GIB]

It is true that when I shut down the business I will have to send the ATF all of my 4473s that are less than 20 years old along with my bound book. What they do with them I'm not sure, but if someone is typing them into a database I'd hate to be that guy.

This is exactly what ATF did in the early 1980's (Reagan era) to their warehouses full of out-of-business records and they continue to do so today.

They have a HUGH database in West Virginia of every 4473 or bound book entry they can lay their hands on. According to ATF, it contains only the make, model, serial number and a document identifier. From the document identifier they can find the 4473 or bound book entry on microfilm and learn the buyer's (dealer records) or owner's (gunsmith records) name and address. If a gun has changed hands through a dealer, they get all sale records and if it has ever been repaired, they get all repair records so they can find the latest transaction.

Doing this allows them to trace by the gun but not by the owner (directly) so ATF believes that it does not violate the "registration" prohibition that NRA gets the Congress to reenact every year as part of ATF's appropriation bill. Apparently, NRA thinks this is OK because they have never challenged it.

FWIW, ATF is often worse on gun owners during Republican administrations than Democratic. For example, the Reagan-era 4473 database, the Bush I import ban on military-style firearms, and the Bush II import ban on military-style barrels (ATF's recent reinterpretation of the law).

 

[Big Bad Wolf]

The fact the FFL has to pass along the serial number, make, model and caliber of the firearm scares the hell out of me regardless if the NICS really wipes these "Proceed" records out or not.

If there is truly no federal registration why does the NICS need this at all since it is just an eligibility check? All they should need is the info on the buyer and perhaps if it is a handgun or long gun. The fact this is required info for the FFL to pass along during the background check is by it's very nature linking the specific gun to the buyer, or in simple terms a registration.

If they are worried about mistaken "Proceed" transfers they might approve then as pointed out above all they need do is follow the paper trail (i.e. call transfer dealer and get the info from them directly.

 

[waterhouse]

I've personally had two gun transactions where the FFL was whispering in what make, model, serial number. Might not be on your form, but it appears it's on theirs.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear in the above post. I never speak to anyone at NICS. I used to, and when I used to call they never once asked me for the make and model or any other identifying features.

Now I fill out an online form and hit submit. The only information on this form is the information I listed above. I can promise you that, at least for the NICS checks I make, there is not one shred of information on their form that that I didn't put there, and since it is impossible to enter any information about the gun other than handgun or long gun I can't put any gun identifying information there even if I wanted to. So it most certainly does not appear on their form.

When I shut down my business or if they come knock on my door for an inspection they will have access to all of this information, but I promise that the ATF has no idea which guns I have sold to which people based on my NICS checks.

If it concerns you that the data all ends up in West Virginia after the business shuts down, this is a legitimate concern. If you are concerned that NICS is creating a database, this is not a legitimate concern. They might start doing it in the future, but they sure aren't doing it now.

 

[waterhouse]

The fact the FFL has to pass along the serial number, make, model and caliber of the firearm scares the hell out of me regardless if the NICS really wipes these "Proceed" records out or not.

Again, I can promise that it is not a fact that the FFL has to pass along this information. I do several NICS trasnactions every day and I've never once passed this information along.

 

[Alex45ACP]

Interesting, thanks Waterhouse.

 

[Ed]

In Arkansas with a CCL you skip the NICS. Just fill out the paper.

 

[RoyG]

In NC with a CHP no phone call is made. Yes the information is still on the 4473. But that's it.

 

[rritter]

I notice the person who says that serial number, etc. are phoned in is from Oregon. I seem to recall that some states use their state police for a criminal check, and don't have to use NICS. Could it be that Oregon is one of those states, and thus the requirements are different? I'm pretty sure that NICS is not a universal requirement, and some states have equivalent non-Federal methods of checking for criminal history before selling a gun. Such methods could well include additional information not required by NICS.

 

[scout26]

Here in the People's Democratic Republic of Corruption (formerly known as Illinois), not only are you registered with the State Police (FOID Card), but also all your firearm purchases are maintained by the State Police in a big illegal database.

Yep, I LOVE BIG BLAGO !!!!!!

 

[Joey2]

In the movie "Red Dawn" the Cuban officer told his minion to go to the court house and get the "form 4473's".

When you purchase a gun through "paper trail" you become the custodian of your purchase. "THEY' know who you are and where you live.

 

[SouthpawShootr]

In the movie "Red Dawn" the Cuban officer told his minion to go to the court house and get the "form 4473's".

Fine by me. They'd be looking in the wrong place. Amazing that the people making the film let that one slip through. They knew about the 4473s, but didn't know the how or where they are maintained.

Your point is well taken though. Private sales are about the best way to buy. You keep your head down and don't do anything illegal with it, chances are nobody will ever know you have it. Most private sellers don't even bother to record the name and address of the person buying the gun. I'll wager a significant number don't even bother to check and see if the purchaser is a resident.

 

[oswulf]

Waterhouse is correct. I'm also an FFL holder and call in directly to NICS, they've never once asked me for any more information about the gun than whether it's a long gun or a handgun. Oregon on the other hand does it's background checks through a state agency, not NICS, (I'm right on the Oregon/Idaho Border, The free side that is). Oregon does require more information than I have to give in Idaho, but this info is state level only, the FBI and NICS do not get this extra info.

Some states don't go directly through NICS they go through a state agency with it's own peculiarities. These states might deny you for reasons that wouldn,t cause a hickup at the federal level, and they can keep whatever records the state legislature lets them. If you live in one of these states I feel sorry for you.

Oswulf

 

[Henry Bowman]

In the movie "Red Dawn" the Cuban officer told his minion to go to the court house and get the "form 4473's".

I thought he said to go to the "hardware store." Haven't seen the movie in a while, though.